Ugh, that's what pisses me off about denominations of Christianity. Some people seem to forget that they're worshipping God/Jesus/the Holy Spirit, not the stupid little technicalities that keep us apart.

(I realize that I might anger some people by calling them stupid little technicalities, but it's more stupid that people let them become such a big issue.)

Actually....all Christian faiths are supposed to proselytize, regardless of the denomination. I am not a Bible quoter, but I do recall being taught that the Bible teaches us that all Christians are supposed to spread the word and their belief in Jesus as the Savior. Someone who knows their Bible verses well, please feel free to help me out with this one! However, how you interpret that varies on denominational beliefs and personal beliefs. I personally do not put out pamphlets and tell people they will burn in hell for this or that, but I will stand up for my beliefs when challenged and will gladly share them with anyone who has questions. Some Christian groups do believe in "preaching" all the time, though. But, as I said, I do think that it is a Christian teaching that you should spread the word (although I guess maybe some don't consider that actually trying to get converts...)

Did any of that make sense?!?! I hope so! :)

I was baptised methodist. Then didn't go to church for a while then went back and it was totally different and, in my opioion, wrong. Altar boys in shorts, etc. So much for that. I was never confirmed into anything.

I am a Buddhist now, but have my own ideas about it.

What a fascinating discussion!

First, xo_kathy, I think you mean the Great Commission (Matt 28:19) "Therefore go and make disciples of many nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit..."

My road started with my parents: my dad's family was Lutheran or Christian Scientist, my mama's family was Baptist. They tried all of the options, and discovered that they were both happiest with the Baptist church. They were immersed one Sunday and married the next - I find that SO romantic!

For those who are so darn interested in my family, my parents had dated for three years prior to their mutual immersion. The commitment of immersion requires pastoral counseling.

I was dedicated a Baptist, but we moved far away from a Baptist church, so we started attending a Presbyterian church. The neighborhood was a little Belfast - none of the Catholic kids were permitted to even play with we non-Catholics who were going to hell, courtesy of a rabid Sister Dom Bosco! I had to be water-sprinkled before 6th grade confirmation. One of the pastors there started a non-denominational church, which we attended until it self-destructed (long story). There was not one bit of theology at that church with which I disagreed, so its demise was really a blow to me.

I want to interrupt myself to say that while I was growing up, I was encouraged to attend as many types of services as I wanted. The last I counted, I had been to 23 different sects or religions. This was a great blessing, as how do you really know if you want to be part of ANY given church or religion without experiencing it on a personal level? I fully believe in infant dedication and then baptism/confirmation/conversion only upon making a commitment to whichever church or religion as an adult.

My brother is a part-time missionary (nondenominational), and both of my parents did part-time evangelism. I have been commissioned at a nondenominational church as a facilitator & counselor, but I am a member of a Baptist church. I fully believe in this church's theology, and "I was glad when they said unto me, let us go to the House of the Lord!" I taught Sunday School for 12 years, and usually got the middle school kids - the ones who are starting to question, and need to see different religions. I've found a rabbi who encourages an "exchange program" where his teacher will talk with my kids, and I will talk with theirs. After all, without Judeaism, Christianity has no foundation!

When I started attending my current church, I made an appointment to talk to the pastor about membership. He has since teased me that usually, the pastor interviews the prospective member, but I interviewed him! He was thrilled that I knew what my beliefs are, and would only consider joining a church that would satisfy my theology.

To know me is to know that I am a believing Christian, and while I stumble at times, I do my best to uphold my beliefs. I am at peace. Somehow, I must manage to come off as non-judgemental, because friends who have come out of the closet or had an abortion feel comfortable with discussing this with me - even though they know how I feel. While it hurts to hear about an abortion, it's more important that the love of God is shown. I hope I don't sound too sanctimonious about all this!

As for the funeral bit, I would agree with whomever said that it was the pastor's delivery that was wrong, not the message. Weddings & funerals which are conducted in a church should not be expected to be "watered down" for the benefit of others, and I would question a church that did. If you're uncomfortable with that, please don't plan on attending my funeral! :)


(edited for puncuation & purient interests)

Thank you, honeychile! That's it!

I enjoyed the rest of your post as well.

And I would like to say I am proud of us that we are keeping it to a "this is what I believe" type of a discussion and not a "See, that's where you ___(insert religion here)___ are so wrong!!!" discussion! :D

Originally posted by xo_kathy
Thank you, honeychile! That's it!

I enjoyed the rest of your post as well.

Thank you! :)

And I would like to say I am proud of us that we are keeping it to a "this is what I believe" type of a discussion and not a "See, that's where you ___(insert religion here)___ are so wrong!!!" discussion! :D

I totally agree!

We're all adults (I would hope), and know that there's a time & place for everything. We shouldn't feel threatened by someone talking about their spiritual journey, but be glad that they took the trip!

This is a topic close to my heart so forgive me if I ramble.

I come from a large family of Catholics and was born into the Catholic church myself. My family is French Catholic, Irish Catholic, Polish Catholic, and my mom's many cousins and relatives by marriage are mostly Italian Catholic. St. Louis is a really Catholic city so that's not at all unusual.

My mom was married briefly after dropping out of college and because she was married in the Catholic church she would have had to get an annulment to marry again -- but she believes in taking responsibility for your actions and acknowledging your mistakes, so saying that the awful marriage (that lasted less than a year) didn't even happen went against her personal beliefs. Instead she got a divorce. When she met my dad (also Catholic, obviously) they couldn't get married in the Catholic Church so they were married in a Lutheran church. I was still baptized and raised Catholic because both my parents believed in the fundamental tenets (mostly) and because it was such a tradition.

When it came to be time for my first Reconciliation (aka confession) and Communion, my entire class at the parish school I went to all did it together, in the spring of second grade. We spent most of the semester learning about what it meant and why we did it and all that. My parents and my extended family supported me and though I don't think I was necessarily my choice, it wasn't something unusual -- we went to Mass frequently and I went to Catholic school, after all. Well the parish priest at that time told my parents that they weren't welcome at the service when I received my Communion because they were living in sin and both my brother and I were therefore bastards. :mad:

So very shortly after that we left the Catholic church. (Sidenote: my godmother, who was also my aunt, looked into getting legal custody because my parents were leading me down the path of evil by taking me out of the Church. She didn't get it.) My parents looked around and eventually found the Episcopal (Anglican) church and realized that the fundamental similarities of belief were there but that the church as a whole was a lot more open-minded in its beliefs.

Making the transition from Catholicism to Anglicanism isn't difficult, so it sort of meshed well with the beliefs I'd already been forming. My church has confirmation at the end of 8th grade, and I went through believing as much as a 12 year old can believe, which I think is probably enough.

I still attend church, albeit less frequently because of some personal problems with the parish I grew up in. I went to Catholic grade school and high school, and I believe that, in the absence of a protestant denominational school compatible with my beliefs, Catholic school will also be my choice for my children. I have a fondness for the Catholic church but my beliefs are more in line with the Episcopal church ( as someone said, it really is Catholic light in many ways).

I believe that I can spread the Good News of the Gospels without saying 'you're wrong, be a Christian.' I have had more success in forming relationships with those of other faiths and making them more open to the concepts of Christianity by being a good Christian (well, sometimes, I'm hardly perfect) than by being a good converter. Additionally, questioning your faith and the faith of your religious leaders can often be a good way to a deeper understanding of the faith of both of you.

I also believe that structure (Catholic/religious schools, formal language in worship, rules on when you can take certain sacraments) are helpful. I have two young adopted sisters and an adopted brother. My sister, after 3 months in the U.S., who was raised pseudo-Jewish, spoke very little English, and had pretty much no idea what was going on, was led by her Sunday school teachers into taking Communion "because all the other kids in her grade are doing it." That really upset me -- I think that until you have some sort of idea what's going on (even if you can't get all of the deeper sacramental meaning of it) you have no business taking a sacrament.

But that's just me. I could be wrong. :)

~~Greekgrrl

Your entire post was great but I really wanted to put an "AMEN" on this part!

I think the difference is forcing your religion on others.... look at it this way:
Do you know the basic tenets of Judaism? or Islam?
Then you have heard their "word" but no-one forced you to accept their faith as the true faith.
The problem is the fundamentalists in every religion that try to force their views and beliefs on others the force (verbal, written, physical, or mental). It is these people that give the other followers of a faith a bad name: for example Islam.

Absolutely, Rob. People are usually most upset with the screaming, yelling guy we've all had on our campus telling us we are going to hell for being Greek! :rolleyes:

My post was mostly pointed at ZTAMiami and Geeky Penguin who claimed that Catholics do not proselytize. I was pointing out that a teaching of basic Christianty - regardless of denomination - is to do just that. So while the Catholics may not be the type who "shove it down your throat" so to speak, they are indeed supposed to profess their faith to others. (P.S. Ladies - no offense meant, just trying to be accurate :) )

Okay - so this will be long, but please read because I am looking for some answers to some questions - thanks!

First of all, I was raised Protestant (Wesleyan denomination) -- I was baptized as a baby as was "normal" for all babies in the faith. My DH (dear hubby) on the other hand was raised Catholic - and his parents define the word DEVOUT (Websters definition - Devout - see picture of Mr. AXO Alum's parents).

Well, DH was never so "pure" regardless of what mamma thought - he would go to Mass with them when he was home, but that was about it. When it came time for us to get serious about marriage (and we did live together before which didn't score any points for me with mamma) DH and I had the talk about religion. I didn't care what we believed, as long as it involved the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and we could raise our children in our faith (although allowing them to choose for themselves when they become able to do so) -- but I did have MAJOR issues with the Catholic faith (same for DH) - so we started "shopping" for churches. Now that sounds so cold, but we did - we wanted to know what we were getting into, and was it something that we could raise our kids up believing.

Well we tried the Southern Baptist route - sheesh! Apologies to any SB's out there who DON'T belong to a cult, but this one extremely large church we attended (10,000 plus members) was just ridiculous. The pastor had no qualms in saying "women you will bow down to your man and serve him" -- which I (not being a feminist by any stretch) couldn't stomach -- marriage (to us) is a PARTNERSHIP not a form of slavery. And the kicker that got us to leave this place was (they have these huge screens on either side so people can see - think about PTL and the Jim Baker days) that one day during the service he showed a "film" that showed the most disgusting things -- it was a bunch of clips from gay rallies that were, not to offend anyone, shocking -- but what I mean by that is that he deliberately PICKED the worst clips out there -- there were no quiet, hand-holding couples -- there were people naked and performing lewd acts, people chained to a fence and making mockeries of sexual acts, etc. It was HORRIBLE -- I thought if I had kids in here, I would expect an apology from this man. But then he goes on to say "THESE ARE THE LOWEST OF THE LOW -- AND THE ONLY PEOPLE LOWER THAN THESE PEOPLE ARE THOSE HAVING SEX OUTSIDE OF MARRIAGE" -- well let me tell you - we left. Not because our toes were stepped on, but because I don't believe that church is a place to CONDEMN. You should lift up people and show them that God loves them and can forgive them and lead them.

Anyway -- so we finally found the United Methodist Church who sent us the neatest info with their motto "Open Heart, Open Minds, Open Doors" which is SO us! We love our church and feel that, like the Hard Rock Cafe slogan, its "love all serve all" which is what we feel we should do as Christians. Plus, they consider one baptism as "enough" -- which was great, since we both felt it was inappropriate to be re-baptised, and disrespectful to our parents.

Okay - so back to the Catholic thing -- mamma is ready to throw herself off a cliff with the shame that her precious (only) child has been living in sin, and is now going to join a Protestant church. She still hasn't recovered! Now granted, we do go to Mass with them when we visit. We have no problems going and being respectful. She does not usually go to church with us though.

We have been pretty okay with it until Eli came along, and dad-in-law and I had a heated discussion. He wanted to know if Eli would be baptised or just "dedicated" -- I said "baptised" -- he said "good because if he isn't, and he dies before he is, he won't go to heaven" -- well that just burned my grits and toast -- I was LIVID about that statement. So I point blank said to him "Any religion that believes an innocent child will not go to heaven, is a religion that I don't want any part of" -- and he says "well, its not that he won't go to heaven, but he won't be in the sight of God -- its like [yes he said this] going to a ball game and instead of having floor seats, you would have the really high, nosebleed seats where you can't see very well" -- I was like WTH?! Literally!

So questions here...and not meant to sound snotty, but I like others have always had a very "closed-door" impression of the Catholic church when it comes to my questions --

1) Is that true? Do Catholics believe that a child will not "be in the sight of God" if they aren't baptised?

2) Do Catholics still believe that the Pope, even as a man, is infallible?

3) Why can't a non-Catholic take communion? It is my belief/opinion that Jesus welcomes anyone to His table -- why do Catholics think that only other Catholics can receive?

4) Explain confession -- I agreed with whomever said "why not cut out the middle man" although they went on to say the priest explained it, I wanna know what the explanation is.

5) Why is Mary worshipped? DH says she isn't "worshipped" but I think differently based on the sayings that they use, and have seen people give "gifts" to the Virgin Mary statues in church. I thought this would fall under the "no other gods before me" category.

I have a ton more - I really do want to get a better understanding of this faith so that if a problem arises between my MIL again (which I am sure it will) that I will have an informed opinion.

ChitownXO, I may need to PM you since you have already given me some great info on here! Thanks!

Although I am by no means a perfect Catholic, I'll try to answer a few questions....

First, technically Catholics don't worship Mary in a god-like sense. We venerate her as the mother of Jesus. She is the holiest of all women, and we treat her as such.

Catholics don't allow Protestants to take Communion because it implies a unity that technically isn't there. I was always told that the Protestants in the congregation are to pray that one day the schism will be healed.

I've always been taught that the Pope isn't infallible, except in matters of theology. I don't know that I 100% believe this, but there ya go.

In Confession, as explained to me a couple of days before my confirmation, the priest acts as an intercessor for you. You go to Confession to confess sins, and then you and the priest pray together. You do a penace (usually a prayer, although I once had to be nicer to Mr. Chitownxo's mom - which is really hard!) I will say that the times I force myself to go, I do feel better about things. It's nice to have someone to talk about things that you're not really proud of...so much cheaper than a therapist!

It is techinically part of our mission to spread the word, so to speak. I have no desire to convert anyone...I figure if anyone else wants to become a Catholic, they'll ask me, and I can point them in the right direction.

As for the non-baptised child, according to my father who is busily quoting the Baltimore Cathecism to me as we speak, there was never an official Catholic dogma that taught that the child would go to hell. It's not spelled out...according to my father the Super-Catholic, a non-baptised child does not go to hell, and it was never a teaching that they would. Hell, when translated, means absence from God, so I think that's a missunderstanding.

If anyone else has any questions, I'll answer them as best as I can. If you feel more comfortable PM-ing me, that's cool too.

My next door neighbors were devout catholics and I think the way they explained it (it's been a while) is that unbaptized babies are sort of in limbo or purgatory or something. Not in hell or heaven. Still that's sad. What is the Catholic belief on people who are insane or mentally handicapped? Will they go to heaven or hell and why? Just curious.

Purgatory is no longer an official teaching of the Catholic church. I have heard that it never was, but I'm not sure which is the correct version. From what I do know, the concept of purgatory came about as an answer to the question, "What if I'm neither good, nor bad where do I go?" Hey, you're going to purgatory...a kind of netherworldish waiting room where you wait for your sins to be forgiven. The custom of selling indulgences, buying your or a loved one's way out of purgatory, started from this belief. Indulgences were a way for the corrupt clergy in the Middle Ages, (and I don't think it will offend anyone to say that a lot of the clergy were corrupt...drawn to the church for monetary rather than theological reasons).

That said, I can tell you what I've been told, and what I personally believe: if we really believe in a loving God who loves his children, do we really think that he would allow an innocent not to come home to him?

chitownxo - thank you SO much -- I really appreciate your "answers" as best as you were taught. I think that it shows the difference in teachings (albeit subtle sometimes) -- amongst ALL types of faith.

I have to admit that the Mary thing bothers me -- to see people putting flowers at the feet of her statue during Mass was just weird to me. And praying to her to intercede on our behalf (isn't that the way it goes?) is weird to me too. I don't mean "weird" as in "freaks!" -- I mean "weird" as in "not understood" -- believe me, I would like to learn more, and its not my intent to insult people. I just feel like (to me) its like people put her right up there with God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit -- and that just isn't what I was taught growing up, so therefore, it is a foreign idea to me.

As for Confession - that was a good answer - I haven't thought about it that way before. And yes, the old "you have to pay the church for your sins" stereotype WAS taught to me by my parents (who really don't know much about the faith either) -- so its good to know that I can now tell my mom that that isn't true.

Thanks to your dad for his input too :) And I loved your quote:

I will have to PM you sometime and find out about your having to be nice to Mr. chitownxo's mom -- sounds VERY familiar although opposite! If she were to confess her dislike of me in Confession, she'd be there ALL week at least - LOL! She has a very dear family friend who is a priest, and I think that she "uses" him as her permanent confidante for confession -- although he lives several states away, I have no doubt that more than one phone call to him has been in regards to me -- once he even bought Mr. AXO Alum a "Saint" figurine bearing the saint he is named after. He said to her (he didn't know I was standing behind him) "give this to him - let him know that we will find a way to get him" meaning "get him back" I assumed - by that time he caught on that I was standing there...oops!