I think this is something to consider with the local chapter...I know that I saw a website for a chapter of an NPC sorority that said something to the effect of they had all accepted Christ as their Savior. Now I don't think that's the stance of the national, but I would say in that particular chapter if you don't feel comfy in that sort of environment, don't go there.

We do have a "spiritual" aim but that means different things to different people.

Docetboy,

I was surprised to see you state with such unflinching authority that Kappa Sigma fraternity would immediately move to expel any member whose beliefs had changed from the time that they in good conscience took their oath. It’s unclear to me whether your statements about what the fraternity would do are purely your interpretation of Kappa Sigma doctrine (pledge manual, ritual, etc.) or whether the Kappa Sigma fraternity has issued some policy statement threatening expulsion or has already taken some action on this specific scenario.

Perhaps that’s also why other people here are asking you so many questions. There are many fraternities out there who absolutely require a belief in god (according to their pledge manuals and their rituals), but I have never heard of an initiated member later being expelled on the basis of nonbelief. So it’s hard for me (us?) to understand how you can put forth the kind of unilateral statements that you have.

No disrespect intended of course. Just seeking clarification. It’s an issue of great personal interest to me. And mind you, I’m not disputing that Kappa Sigma has this requirement – I’m just asking how you’re so sure what they would do from an enforcement standpoint.

Also, out of curiosity, on what do you base the assertion in your signature that Kappa Sigma’s European founding is in 1400 and that the group is 603 years old? What is the direct tie between Chrysoloras’ brotherhood at Bologna and the Kappa Sigma fraternity? As I understand it, Kappa Sigma based the fraternity on the earlier brotherhood, but does not claim to be a continuation of that long defunct group. Please correct me if I’m wrong, or please correct yourself if you are.

Fraternally,
wptw

While I do not know of any official statement made by our International Memorial Headquarters about this subject, it is the way it is clearly stated in all information I have recieved and the way it has been personally explained to me by members of my chapter and alumni volunteers and staff. So yes, I really don't know if we would immediately move to expel a member, but I would expect this if the subject ever comes up.

As you already know, Kappa Sigma was founded in 1400 in Bologna Italy, by Manuel Chrysaloras, a greek scholar, and his five full time disciples, as a society for mutual protection against the evil governor who preyed on out-of-town students. As our pledge manual states

In 1400, at the University of Bologna, Manuel Chrysoloras and his disciples formed a society for mutual protetion. Their work inspired the Ritual and beliefs of a modern-day Greek-letter Fraternity - Kappa Sigma

However, it is not like our founders read about this group in a history book and decided to make a fraternity out of it. One of our founders learned about the organization from an elderly gentleman during a trip to Europe and was encouraged to bring the group to America. This person, along with four close friends, created the modern-day Kappa Sigma fraternity and became friends and brothers. Our modern ritual was created by Steven Alonzo Jackson, whom we call "the golden-hearted Virginian," using a masonic theme, beautifully incorporating the 'bologna tradition.'

Our pledge manual, which contains the information I have given above, is a lot of history of Kappa Sigma, but is much less than 10% of what their is to learn about Kappa Sigma. There is much more to our European history and the founding of the fraternity in America that one learns upon initiation.

Here is my deal....as long as you belive in the Oath you took, then you're good. Religion is, among other things, an outer shell for an inner shell. The shell of a crab is different from the shell of a nautilis, but they have both have meat. Sea food. ;)

Thanks for the reply, docetboy.

I would like to discuss the Bologna group further, but I don't wish to hijack this thread, and I don't wish to inadvertantly reveal something inappropriate. I will say that working from the same information you have available to you, I don't see the clear link from KS of 1400 to Kappa Sigma of 1869 that you do.

I see a lot of generations passing between the extinction of KS and the founding of Kappa Sigma, and it's unclear exactly what was taken from the old group and what was ultimately crafted from scratch for the new fraternity, so I question how much of the essence of KS really made it into Kappa Sigma.

I can think of several other societies that could legitimately (by your standard of what constitutes a direct link to an original group) claim MUCH earlier founding dates than they do - Kappa Alpha Society, Skull & Bones, Chi Phi and Sigma Chi come to mind.

Maybe I can wrestle this back to topic by saying there is always more than one interpretation for any given written work, whether it's the bible or a lecture on fraternity history. What I consider Christianity in my own fraternity ritual, Minister Hatchett actually considers a belittling of Christ. Go figure.

Anyway, sorry if I've hijacked a good thread. I'll try not to do it again. I just think ANY unilateral statement on any subject tends to invite questions and criticism.

wptw

Y'know... the discussion of Kappa Sigma's requirement that all members believe in a higher being, has me wondering if any other GLOs share that requirement, and if they would expel full members if it came to light after initiation. I know the Masons have that requirement, and I'm guessing that's where Kappa Sig got it, but are there any others?

I'm particularly interested to know if any NPC sororities have that requirement, since NPC rules stipulate that if you depledge, you can't pledge another NPC sorority for a year, and if you were initiated, you can never be initiated into another NPC sorority. (AEPhi has no such requirement.)

We had a great ritual workshop this year with an International Officer that really delved into this topic. As our ADPi chapters are home to women with varying backgrounds, we realize that although the sorority is founded upon Christian ideals, the biblical references are merely historic references of the sentiments at the time your GLO was founded. As a sister of Jewish descent, I appreciate my GLO educating me of this consideration. I view these ideals more as human ideals, and I am not offended or left out.

Pi Beta Phi had a series of similar-sounding values workshops for all our collegiate chapters this year. The emphasis was that while some values are Pi Phi-wide (sisterhood, loyalty, etc, etc, etc) that others such as religious faith are individual and should not be called into question by Pi Phi. I thought it was really helpful and meaningful to see the position of Pi Phi on these issues and it made me proud to be a sister. :D

Pi Phi Friend-- I think its great that our GLOs and so many others are recognizing our diversity, and retaining the meaning of everything, while still keeping PC with member education! Just another reason its great to be Greek! :)

Phi Mu Alpha Sinfonia does not have such a requirement.

There are quite a few fraternities with this requirement. It's in the pledge manual. It's in the ritual. It's in the oath. For these groups, a man who does not believe in god is not to be initiated. But of these groups, most offer some additional guidance for what to do when a prospective member balks at this during the initiation - and the general consensus is that it's OK as long as the guy professes a belief in some kind of higher authority.

Also, none of these groups have any provision for what to do once someone IS rightfully initiated. There are only 2 grounds for expulsion in most GLOs – failure to meet financial obligations and conduct unbecoming an XYZ.

To my knowledge, no fraternity has ever sought expulsion of a member who lied about beliefs or who later changed his mind. Personally, I would support expulsion for someone who lies - not because I really care so much about his beliefs, but because a man who is willing to lie about his values in order to gain some benefit is a man I don't want in my organization. Lying is “conduct unbecoming an XYZ”.

As for someone who sincerely professes a belief in god and then later changes his mind, I personally do not support expulsion , though I can see why many would disagree. But in my opinion, beliefs are not “conduct” and therefore not a valid basis for judgment whether they are becoming or unbecoming of an XYZ. For example, is it possible to not believe in god, but to still conduct yourself as a Christian? I say yes, basing this purely on following the very simple teachings of Christ (whether you think he’s the son of god or just a historical figure). Christ’s teachings were extremely simple – it’s people like Hatchett that attach all the other gobbledygook to it.

Remember too that the people taking these oaths are usually teenagers. I think it's unrealistic to expect a person's opinions and beliefs to be the same a decade later.

wptw

WPTW,, good to see ya on the Boards agin!!!:)

I think this maybe getting a Little to Hattachitized!

"GOD IS UP THERE, devil is down there"!

I remember something from a Loooong time ago the Hell is on earth, and heaven is being not on earth!

So I guess I am in Hell, but at least I am in good company!!!!!:D

Damn, this thread is starting to remind me of the left over enchiladas and refried beans I had last night!;)

Oh well what the Hell-o, I am just watching Diagnosis Murder too!

Cannot stand to do one thing at a time!:D

I think that it makes sense that some fraternities have this requirement, as quite a few of them have some ties to Masonry... and I know Rainbow Girls have the same requirement.. (belief in some sort of supreme being) Phi Sig doesn't have such a requirement...
I'm pretty sure.. (and I've been around Masonic orgs. A LOT) that all of the Masonic orgs. require such a requirement and that is why some of the fraternities share that requirement....

Jews for Jesus is a Christian group. In fact their sponsors are none other than southern baptists who find that their goal in life is to convert others.

-Rudey

Jews for Jesus is a group of Christians who feel that since Jesus was a Jew, all Jews should convert to Christianity. It has nothing to do with Jews believing in Jesus. While most Jews do not deny that Jesus existed, we don't believe that he was the son of G-D or the Messiah.