I think NIC/NPC groups are primarily collegiate organizations, in the sense that graduates don't necessarily remain active pst-graduation. You no longer have to pay dues to remain a member. And I've read statements like "don't wear your pin to a job interview" because the interviewer will think you never got over college. I doubt this is true with the NPHC groups. However, we want our members to remain involved - it just frequently doesn't happen. Once you're out of school there is no requirement to do so. And you will hear people say things like, "Oh, I WAS an XYZ in college" - in the past tense. (But it's not true that we have to return our pins. Membership is for life.)

On the other hand, unless some of us remain involved, the sororities will close - because we are essential for financial support and to fill volunteer positions. I think all NPC and NIC orgs would definitely love to have more alums involved and supportive.

Re: Re: Me? I am in it for LIFE!!!
 

I agree and I think this is based on the school and/or organization. I have spoken with Sigma Chis who say that they look forward to being active and financial after they graduate. I have also been chastised by "former" members of fraternities and sororities (non-NPHC) for wearing 'nalia and showing my undying love for my organization ("uh, didn't you graduate a long time ago, you're not a Delta anymore...you need to grow up."). I remember, years ago, seeing a 70+ year old man walking around campus during homecoming week, wearing his old fraternity 'nalia (perhaps SAE, I'm not sure). The students laughed at him, which I thought was sad. I don't know how other organizations feel about this, but when NPHCers see "ol' skoolers" wearing 'nalia, whether they're 30 years old or 100, it is the most beautiful thing---that's true love and dedication :) It is GREATLY frowned upon (across the NPHC) when people refer to their membership in the past tense or as something that they solely participated in during their college years.

Greek Love,
1913

Considering most NPC sororities are historically Christian, where else should Alison Davis have looked? I find that statement as bad as saying that a black woman should not look at an historically white sorority. Are you saying that only Christians should "look into" and join historically Christian orgs? I believe that everyone should have an equal opportunity to join whatever GLO she/he wants. I think that race and religion should not be factored into determining who receives a bid. I think that Alison Davis was wise to raise the question about her faith and the role religion plays in the sorority. She wanted to avoid being in a situation that might contradict her faith. Where I attended college, there were many Jewish students and several were in GLO's. A few observed sabbath so they couldn't go out on Friday nights. Many of the sororities and fraternities accomodated them by not scheduling events on Friday night. It wasn't a big deal.

Regarding the Christian camp: there were some students who were not Catholics enrolled in Catholic schools. Why do they attend if they are another religion? Because Catholic schools provide an excellent educational opportunity at a reasonable price. There are provisions made for the non Catholic students, for example, they don't attend mass and religion class. This kid was probably attending the Christian camp for a similar reason, an excellent opportunity to better him/herself and have fun.

I agree. If the ideals and Christian orientation of the organization are such a problem, perhaps one should look elsewhere. We have members who are not Christian, but it is BEYOND their ability to foster change to accomodate their religion. Meaning, the ritual and so forth are not altered to accomodate a diversity of religions, cultures, and ethnicities. Take the organization for what it is, or leave it--perhaps another organization would fit you better.


Greek Love,
1913

No, she's saying that if Alison had such a PROBLEM with the Christian ideals, she shouldn't have joined. It is one thing to join an organization when you're not Christian, it's another to join the organization when you do not agree with its historically Christian ideals. To use your analogy...a black woman who has a problem with white women shouldn't join an historically white sorority. If you have a problem with something, don't place yourself in the midst of it. These are Greek lettered organizations, you don't HAVE to be a member...if you chose to pursue membership, that's something you must deal with. You shouldn't expect the organization (as a whole) to accomodate you but so much. This isn't Burger King, where you can have these organizations YOUR way. You can foster a certain amount of change within your chapter, but even that doesn't go but so far.


Greek Love,
1913

LOL! Burger King Have it your way!
I didn't read that A.D. had a PROBLEM with Christian ideals. I will quote from the article. She asked a sister, "Do you do Christian prayers? I don't want any part of that." I can completely understand that. She didn't want to take an oath to a sorority that contradicted her religion. She also indicated that she liked the diversity of Alpha Gamma Delta. In case I was unclear, I think that it was smart of A.D. to raise the question in order to be fully informed about her decision to join the sorority rather than discover it was going to be a problem after or during initiation.

I think it's important to remember here that while most sororities were founded by women of Christian faith, not all subscribe to _specifically_ Christian ideas. (I'm sure the same is true of fraternities.) I suppose ideas such as friendship, love, philanthropy, etc. fit into the Judeo-Christian ethic, they are not exclusive to it. On the other hand, swearing to Jesus would be specifically Christian.

To be honest, I am not a Christian or religious at all. As such, I nearly walked out of my Order of Omega initiation because it asked me to swear to something I was not comfortable with. I stuck with it (and our Greek life advisor approved) because it was "only" an honor society. If a certain belief was core to it, it should have been expressed earlier than this point in the ceremony!

However - GLOs have open creeds that express their beliefs fairly well. It's your responsibility as a rushee and a new member to find out what you are getting into. If you can't comfortably swear to what the sorority is about, it doesn't matter how much you like the members - you should be looking elsewhere.

ChaosDST, you got my point exactly. I don't believe in restricting membership due to race or religion, far from it!

In the case of the camp, this "kid" was one of the counselors. Why did she apply to be a counselor at a Christian camp if she was going to spend the summer protesting everything Christian?

And in the case of Alison Davis, it's fine if she wanted to join a historically Christian sorority but she should realize that in the case of many of the Christian sororities, there were Christian rituals and customs set in place long before she came around that she shouldn't ask to have set aside if she joined. In some of the GC threads about non-blacks in BGLOs, many BGLO members have replied that it was fine with them as long as the PNMs realized that they were founded for certain reasons and that the majority of their focus would be on the black community. Thus, I wouldn't go up to a member of a BGLO and say, "If I join, I won't have to put up with anyone mentioning Martin Luther King Day service projects, will I?"

No one should expect to have cherished traditions swept away for their benefit. No new member is worth that.

Please don't accuse me of side-stepping your questions, Alias. I HAVE answered your questions. If they weren't the answers you liked, I can't help that. Since you insist, I'll say it again:

I don't take a discrimination claim at face value. I need proof of wrongdoing before I jeopardize the reputation of an organization -- something concrete that shows Twilley wasn't given a bid merely because of her race.

Were the girls rude to her? Twilley says no.

Did they ignore her at the rush parties, make her feel ill at ease while she was there, or do anything else to show that she was being set apart from the rest of the rushees? Twilley, again, says no.

If any of those things had happened, then I would be the first to say, "yes, race may have played a part." However, the only "evidence" that we have is Twilley's word that she "thinks" she was discriminated against. I'm not calling her a liar, I just feel that we should hear more of the story - from both sides - instead of taking her claim at face value.

Once again, I'm not saying that race WASN'T the reason for the cut. I'm just saying that people shouldn't automatically jump to that conclusion simply because one person says it is. That's all.

I never claimed to be a racism expert. All I was trying to point out is that I've seen discrimination and racism firsthand, and am not blind to the fact that it exists. You seem to think that because I'm white, I can't understand the forms that racism can take. I assure you that I'm quite aware of both subtle and blatant cases of discrimination. BUT, because, like you, I wasn't present at the Alabama Rush parties, there is no way for me to know one way or the other if Twilley was discriminated against. And, since I simply can't be sure, I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon and protest against something that may not have even really happened.

I'm all for investigating and reaching conclusions. As long as people remember that the conclusion part should come AFTER the investigation part. My point is that many people jump to conclusions and automatically believe that a racism claim is fact before checking to make absolutely sure that it is. The NPC sororities at Alabama should be "innocent until proven guilty", but some people believe them guilty and feel that they should prove their innocence. Doesn't seem very fair to me.


Please don't pick apart my statements to find one quote that suits you. My original words stated that there are ALREADY minority members in NPC houses at Alabama, which disproves the theory that the NPC groups are against the idea of non-white members. To me, that shows that the girls are interested in choosing rushees who will be assets to their organizations, regardless of what the color of their skin may be. Also, if I were a minority rushee who didn't receive a bid, I would have a hard time justifying a discrimination claim knowing that I'd met sorority members who were also "minorities" during the rush parties.

I am not scared to address difficult points on any issue. If you'd been on these boards longer, you would know that I rarely, if ever, "dodge" any questions asked of me. If I'm repeating the same things over and over, it's because I feel that my points have been made very clearly, and I have nothing further to add. Once again, I'm sorry if you don't like my answers. But asking a question over and over isn't going to make me change my opinion on an issue. Perhaps we should follow my previous suggestion and agree to disagree. ;)

Oh, I see your point now. I agree that you can't change a sorority's traditions for one potential member. I also believe that a potential member has the right and responsibility to ask questions and to gather as much information as possible about the GLO that she is interested in joining. That way she can make an informed decision.

Hmmmm...............
 

Apparently Allison Davis WAS NOT the only sorority member to hear inappropriate remarks, but the only one to speak out.......

Blacks Need Not Apply

An incident in Georgia shows how little has changed among segregated college sororities

BY TIMOTHY ROCHE/ATLANTA

When a black college freshman applied to join Alpha Gamma Delta at the University of Georgia last August, most members of the all-white sorority were horrified. As they gathered inside their neoclassical mansion to discuss the new applicants, the sisters of AGD singled out the black freshman and talked about her separately. "Why does she want to go through white rush?" asked a sorority member. Another warned, "If we had a black girl in our sorority, none of the fraternities would want to do anything with us."Their remarks so outraged one member, Ali Davis, that she filed a racial-discrimination complaint with university officials, who temporarily suspended AGD while they investigated. What they found was not so much a surprise as a shameful reminder that in the three decades since America's public was desegregated, the Greek social organizations at the University of Georgia, as at many colleges all over the U.S., remain bastions of racial exclusivity--and often bigotry.Although Georgia's population is 28% black, as are 6% of the students at the university's main campus in Athens, few blacks are members of the 42 historically white fraternities and sororities there. The Greek organizations and the university declined to provide a racial breakdown but say that some blacks do belong to white sororities or fraternities. Examining this pattern after years of looking the other way "has been painful, as holding a mirror up often is," says Richard Mullendore, the school's vice president of student affairs.Davis, the sophomore fashion-merchandising student who filed the discrimination complaint, says some of her sorority sisters who knew the black teenager had spoken highly of her--until it came time to assess this year's pledges. "There was an undercurrent of unspoken racism," says Davis. Most of her sorority sisters, she says, voted not to admit the black freshman, who has not been named.Another student, Alana Young, a Filipino American, says she left the sorority in 1998 because of racist attitudes. She overheard a sister say she had been taught that "n_____s work in the house and Mexicans work in the yard." Young says she saw a Mexican-American member of the sorority leave a meeting in tears after the sisters overruled her objection to putting a Confederate flag on a T shirt. Young finally quit after sorority members criticized her for giving her phone number to a black football player.To investigate Davis' allegations, the sorority's national office sent a team that included Atlanta civil rights lawyer Mason Barge. He says the team found no hint of racism: "There was no evidence other than one girl's statement." The local sorority chapter agreed last month to offer racial sensitivity training to its members in exchange for not being disciplined by the university. The sorority still has no black members and is not required to accept any. Out of about 1,000 applicants this year, Barge says, the freshman was the only black. Because the sorority uses campus facilities, it is subject to the federal law that prohibits racial discrimination in higher education. But disciplinary action can be taken only if the sorority is proven to discriminate overtly. Having no black members is not considered proof.Philo Hutcheson, an education professor at Georgia State University in Atlanta, says that among white Greek organizations "there are examples all across the country of things like blackface minstrel shows and slave auctions...These are overt statements of racism, and they happen in the North as much as in the South." Efforts to integrate white fraternities and sororities are made more difficult, Hutcheson says, because blacks often self-segregate in their own Greek organizations.Some schools say they're trying to change this pattern. At the University of Alabama, where none of the 37 traditionally white fraternities and sororities have ever had a black member, the white groups last month moved the date of their rush week, hoping to attract more pledges of all races. Membership in sororities and fraternities increased 14%, but no blacks wound up applying to white organizations. The University of North Carolina offers diversity training to its student groups. So does the University of Virginia. But only a handful of blacks have tried to join the white Greek organizations at those universities.Feeling ostracized, Ali Davis withdrew from the University of Georgia and moved home to Tennessee. Her whistle blowing, however, has caused a dialogue on campus. A group of black and white students put together a two-hour forum on race called "Break the Silence." Two weeks ago, they held a multicultural fashion show. It was arranged by Chi Chi Patrick, an African-American who was recently elected homecoming queen.

It has been my observation that people who deny racism are the racists themselves.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dzrose93
[B]

I don't take a discrimination claim at face value. I need proof of wrongdoing before I jeopardize the reputation of an organization -- something concrete that shows Twilley wasn't given a bid merely because of her race.

Were the girls rude to her? Twilley says no.

Did they ignore her at the rush parties, make her feel ill at ease while she was there, or do anything else to show that she was being set apart from the rest of the rushees? Twilley, again, says no.

If any of those things had happened, then I would be the first to say, "yes, race may have played a part." However, the only "evidence" that we have is Twilley's word that she "thinks" she was discriminated against. I'm not calling her a liar, I just feel that we should hear more of the story - from both sides - instead of taking her claim at face value.

Once again, I'm not saying that race WASN'T the reason for the cut. I'm just saying that people shouldn't automatically jump to that conclusion simply because one person says it is. That's all.

QUOTE]




Do you honestly believe that these women are going to come out and say "We discriminated against her, we don't like blacks, and we don't want them in our group".

Honestly, what type of concrete evidence do you want? I sitting here baffled wondering what will it take.

And just so you know, they didn't have to ignore her or treat her with ill will. I'm sure in your life you have had people smile in your face and talk about you like a dog when you turn you back at least once.

Just something to consider. :confused:

Yeah, and it's been my observation that people who have been banned from GC and keep returning under new screennames to make trouble are desperate attention-seekers. :rolleyes:

"I don't take a discrimination claim at face value. I need proof of wrongdoing before I jeopardize the reputation of an organization -- something concrete that shows Twilley wasn't given a bid merely because of her race.

Were the girls rude to her? Twilley says no.

Did they ignore her at the rush parties, make her feel ill at ease while she was there, or do anything else to show that she was being set apart from the rest of the rushees? Twilley, again, says no.

If any of those things had happened, then I would be the first to say, "yes, race may have played a part." " -- dzrose

Now we're getting somewhere. My reference to you not answering my question dealt with your unwillingness to be specific. Now you've given somewhat specific examples of things that would cause you to consider that race MAY have played a factor in Twilley's denial of a bid (I interpret your response as saying that it would AT LEAST take the events you mentioned to consider that "race MAY have played a part" and to then investigate).

The examples you have given do not surprise me, because they are some of the more obvious types of racist behavior (actually it's still hard to prove unless you have a witness because it's her word against theirs -- now what?). But what you must understand is that, these days, such acts are more rare because racists realize that they have to be more shrewd to get away with their discrimination. People who really are interested in keeping Blacks or another minority out of a group often don't do things as obvious as treat them rudely, ignore them, or make them feel uneasy because they know these things are cause for suspicion. Instead, those who engage in this type of behavior will give no indication whatsoever of their racist views or motives, and simply deny the person a membership/job/etc. because they don't want them there. These are the cases that African-Americans are dealing with most frequently -- the ones with no apparent "evidence." This is why we have to dig deeper and look at patterns of conduct and other things that give us an overall picture of whether or not someone is being discriminated against. This is when we apply the end-result rule to determine if the end-result is discriminatory rather than looking for only intent, because intent is often hard to prove given that racists are much smarter than they used to be. If we waited on something as obvious as the examples you gave to happen before we said, "yes, race MAY have played a part" as you stated, then most valid cases of racism would go uninvestigated.

"However, the only "evidence" that we have is Twilley's word that she "thinks" she was discriminated against. I'm not calling her a liar, I just feel that we should hear more of the story - from both sides - instead of taking her claim at face value.

Once again, I'm not saying that race WASN'T the reason for the cut. I'm just saying that people shouldn't automatically jump to that conclusion simply because one person says it is. That's all." -- dzrose

So you do think it is worth investigating (because earlier you inferred that there wasn't enough "evidence" to say "yes, race MAY have played a factor" and, thus, investigate)? If so, I'm glad you feel that way, but I thought before that you said it was your opinion that Twilley's denial of a bid was not based on race:

" The reason I made my comment (and I think Killarney made hers, although I won't speak for her on this), is because I feel that the whole Twilley incident was blown so far out of proportion. In talking to some people who have met Twilley, it became apparent that she quite possibly had an "agenda" to rushing - that she wanted to make some kind of statement as to how AA's are "treated" during NPC Rush at a Southern school. Through all of this, she made quite a name for herself, and in every article I've read, that Cherokee has been mentioned -- presumably to suggest that because she has a nice car, she should have been automatically granted entrance to an NPC sorority. " -- dzrose

That statement sounds very judgemental and made me believe that you were jumping to conclusions yourself before we had enough information.

"I'm all for investigating and reaching conclusions. As long as people remember that the conclusion part should come AFTER the investigation part. My point is that many people jump to conclusions and automatically believe that a racism claim is fact before checking to make absolutely sure that it is. The NPC sororities at Alabama should be "innocent until proven guilty", but some people believe them guilty and feel that they should prove their innocence. Doesn't seem very fair to me. " -- dzrose

I agree that it's unfair for people to jump to conclusions. I think you have the impression that I am one of those people, but in fact I have maintained throughout my posts that I just felt Twilley's experience should be investigated. You stated earlier that you think Twilley was wrong to "raise such a ruckus about it." I'm sorry if it bothers you when things like this hit the media, but please try and understand that it takes that type of action to draw enough attention to make sure that situations like this are investigated THOUROGHLY. Unfortunately, we can't stop people from jumping to conclusions one way or the other -- therein lies the problem. This is particularly true on an issue like racism, which touches people in an emotional way.

"Please don't pick apart my statements to find one quote that suits you. My original words stated that there are ALREADY minority members in NPC houses at Alabama, which disproves the theory that the NPC groups are against the idea of non-white members. To me, that shows that the girls are interested in choosing rushees who will be assets to their organizations, regardless of what the color of their skin may be. Also, if I were a minority rushee who didn't receive a bid, I would have a hard time justifying a discrimination claim knowing that I'd met sorority members who were also "minorities" during the rush parties." -- dzrose

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm picking you apart, but I just like to respond to specific statements you've made to make sure I counter what you're saying, and so you can see how I'm interpreting what you're telling me. As far as already having minority members, first of all I have no proof of that other than what you're telling me, and secondly even if they did have minority members, that doesn't mean Twilley wasn't discriminated against. That's just like a White person who is accused of engaging in racist statements or conduct defending himself by saying "One of my friends is Black." If there are minority members at Alabama, that's something to consider, but we must look at the whole picture, which is why we must INVESTIGATE situations like this. Yes, we do have as you said, a difficult time proving those cases, but it has been done.

Thank you for answering my question. Now that you have, I think we will be able to understand each other better. I like working to understand people I disagree with rather than just dropping the subject because I feel both parties learn from it. I think the problem is we're miscommunicating a lot, though we may disagree a little. I appreciate your honesty, and anxiously await your reply to my comments.