There is a huge difference, though, between taking an oath with your hand on the bible and signing a statement of belief.

Agreed. I think it's very well established in this thread an others make that a requirement.

Thirty years ago, I was eighteen years old, an atheist (as I still am), and I pledged and initiated KS. So I can sympathize with your situation in general, and I can also make some comments on Kappa Sig in particular.

BTW, I'm not pushing KS nor am I discouraging you from it. At least from what I saw of the Greek system, most or all of what I'm going to say about KS would be true of other groups as well.

Greek societies claim to be all about building character, promoting ideals, doing philanthropic works, leadership opportunities, etc. And each national organization claims that its societies mottos, rituals, etc. are so deeply meaningful and influential in its members lives that the members share a commonality across all chapters -- the idea that, for example, a KS from chapter X would, if he were to meet the brothers of chapter Y, immediately feel a sense of kinship and likemindedness with them.

My experience is that Greek societies are not just primarily, but overwhelmingly, social organizations devoted to making friends, having fun, etc. And from what I saw of my chapter versus other KS chapters, the changes I saw various societies on my campus go through during my time there, and stories I heard from high school friends who had gone to other schools, it seems to me that each chapter of each fraternity pretty much makes as much or little (usually the latter) as it wants to out of the "official" ritual, dogma, etc. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with either of those things.

I had the same discomfort as you, and for the same reason. As an atheist, I didn't want to take an oath professing belief in a supreme being. I told the KS members that. They assured me, "just take the oath; nobody really takes it seriously." The compromise I finally settled on was to tell them, "as long as you understand that I don't believe in God, I'm not going to change my mind on that, and I'm only saying the words to fulfill a requirement to get into your group, I'll say the words when the time comes." They agreed, I said whatever it was that had to be said (IIRC, I did quite obviously roll my eyes at that point in the oath :) ), and nobody ever mentioned it again. During the entirety of my active membership in KS, nobody ever said anything like "as a Christian group, we should be doing such-and-such." No visiting pastor, priest, rabbi, imam, etc. ever set foot in one of our meetings. No church ever contacted us with an invitation to attend services. Et cetera.

Look, I definitely know where you're coming from. Many Christians assume incorrectly that as atheists, we don't have any beliefs which are important to us, and therefore we should have no objection to endorsing Christianity (since they think we don't care one way or the other about it anyway). It can be incredibly frustrating dealing with people like that. But if I can offer a small piece of what little wisdom that I, as a gray haired old fart, have accumulated ...

You can't win every battle that comes your way. Some battles are unwinnable, some just aren't worth fighting, and there are some small battles you've gotta walk away from to save your energy and effort for the things that really matter. If you're going to be an atheist and live in the USA, you're going to have to put up with some Christianity from time to time, including some of the less attractive aspects of it, including ignorance, bigotry, and hostility from some believers. I suppose that if I wanted to fully "live my atheism," I might refuse to ever use cash because of that "in God we trust" motto, and I might walk out of the room every time I find myself in a "group prayer" situation at a public event. But some things just aren't worth the trouble -- and this really strikes me as one of them.

It's also worth mentioning that KS's ritual requires a somewhat gruesome death penalty for certain offenses. I'm pretty sure that nobody in my chapter took that part of it seriously either, although I suppose you can never tell ... ;)

Is this issue worth the trouble to you? Only you can really answer that. But bear in mind that out of those self-identified Christians who take the oath happily and without even blinking, probably well over half are in the category of "oh, I suppose I'm a Christian, my parents say I am, I'll really have to give it some thought someday."

To sum this up:

1) Your happiness in a particular fraternity is going to be far more due to the personalities of the other members and the group's ability to function in campus society than due to the ritual slogans and mottos.

2) I wouldn't take anything too seriously that a national organization says about its fraternity's "core values," etc. And that includes KS. If you already know what college you're going to, you have some familiarity with the Greeks there, and you know that particular KS chapter is full of seriously religious people, OK ... but if not, don't rule it out just because of what the KS national website says. And of course that goes for every other fraternity.

Apologies for the length -- just my $0.02 worth.

EDIT -- I skimmed but did not fully read the thread before posting, and now see that the Deep South was specifically mentioned a couple of times. My experience was in the South, FWIW.

Perhaps it's true of NIC groups as a whole -- it wouldn't surprise me if it is -- but we don't know how many chapters are on the OP's campus or what those chapters are. So, even if it is true for the majority of NIC fraternities, it may not be true for most fraternities with chapters on his campus. Hence my hesitancy to say "most."

This can be insulting.

I hope the OP finds a chapter (and a fraternity) that takes its ritual seriously with or without a religious component.

*******

Delta Sigma Theta is not a Christian sorority and there is ongoing debate regarding whether it is a Christian-based sorority. I, and some other Sorors, believe that it is not, despite how many chapters and Sorors operate. Some of my Sorors around the world are not Christian but most are Christian. That is tied to the history of Delta and the history of Christianity in the African diaspora. That is not to be confused with Christianity being the foundation of Delta. A nonChristian will not be accepted at many collegiate and alumnae chapters especially if she is as gungho nonChristian as many Christians are about Christianity. That is something that is a case-by-case basis because it really depends. In the Kappa forum the link to the 'nalia vendor (it is a Delta licensed vendor) had a DST Ichthys pin (or ring?). I can see a lot of Sorors wearing that pin (or ring?). That does not mean that we are a Christian-based Sorority and that every woman has to be a Christian pre- and post-initiation.

Well, different strokes for different folks. For the ookabillionth time, this isn't about the OP feeling like he's going to get pelted with rocks or jeered at on campus because he tells fraternities he's an agnostic/humanist. HE doesn't want to swear an oath that HE doesn't believe in - even if he is the only guy in the room, in the fraternity, on the campus, who pays 2 cents worth of attention to what is being said.

If you're talking about the interchangeable core values and mission statements that every GLO has these days, I would agree with you. But the OP is not. He's talking about ritual. If you found the whole thing one big eyeroll, that's fine. But I for one find it refreshing that a college-aged student would rather stick to his beliefs than toss it all in the name of "fun." If that results in him not joining a fraternity, that's sad, because he'd probably be a great member. But to tell him basically to not worry about it is offensive in the extreme.

My boyfriend NGT (my #2 guy on my list of 5) posted something today and I immediately thought of this thread. I don't know if the OP feels this way, but this is a great representation of my beliefs, except for the scientIST part. That was definitely not my calling.

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http...n-TfbD2jEp1W3A

Wow, dubaisis. He is one of my heroes and his views are exactly how I feel. I am not really political about this. My feelings about religion, spirtualism, whatever are personal and I am just not political about it. Thank you for those that get it. I would not be able to roll my eyes through a ritual or sign my name on a document that says I believe in God. I think I can feel comfortable with taking it all in as a part of history, and I don't disagree with most of what is considered reigious behavior. If what I wnated in a fraternity was just drinking buddies and access to parties, it wouldn't matter. Maybe I am just too idealistic and I over think things too much. But I really appreciate all the genuine help you have given.

I find it admirable and refreshing.

I would be turning cartwheels if I knew that there was a person interested in Psi U who took his oaths so seriously.

Agreed...

The first part is a fundamental problem if true. And as for the second, I would hope they would take them seriously, which is not to say necessarily literally.


They're called Jesuits.

Although I don't want to give too many details, I did join a fraternity and am going through pledgeship right now. Thank you all for your advice and support. I was honest with everyone and it turned out to not be a big deal at all.

^^
Glad you came back and let us know how it worked out.

Thanks for coming back! I'm so glad you found a group that was the right fit for you!