Like DrPhil said earlier, why does having the hardest pledge process matter? Show your dedication to your organization as a member.

Again, if your "hybrid" program works so well, why are you concerned with coming up with something else?

Yea, it's like talking to a brick wall.

msl2008, first of all, like KSUviolet, your posts make my head hurt. Based on things you've said, it makes me think that you don't understand what Greek life is about at all.

No hazing = not proud of being in your organization? That's sad.

Unless of course... you got rid of 30-40% of pledges just because. Again, confused.

You say you'd maintain your "high standards" by just getting rid of this 30-40%. So... are you saying that 30-40% of the people you invite to join your organization are people that you don't even want in the first place? And if you're hazing, and you're weeding out 30-40%, you're saying that doing more pushups are the high standards you're trying to reach. I don't know about you, but when I would send in reports to nationals on the status and accomplishments of the chapter, I never said, "Each of our girls can do 50 pushups! It's a good thing we got rid of those other new members who couldn't even do 10. We're doing great now!"

Guess what... fraternities and sororities are exclusive clubs. Without hazing. If you want a pushup club, go to the gym and try to get some guys to attend some meetings with you. You can be the president of the whole thing. You can list your goals each week, and the person who does the most pushups gets a prize.

And I'm still unsure of why you want people to quit. I have seen some amazing people quit fraternities that haze heavily. Even the brotherhood is sad to see them go. So... why let them leave? Don't haze. How simple.

The reason that a lot of fraternities and sororities have 90% of their new members going through initiation is because they weeded out the people they didn't want before giving out bids. How can you not be exclusive when you hand out 50 bids on a campus of 25,000 people?

Fraternities and sororities are definitely not exclusive. You cannot take a population of 25000 people and say you only handed out 50 bids. why? because you only had 52 interviews.

why can't physical stuff be right and wrong at the same time? it's wrong b/c it's against the law but it works b/c it allows people to quit thus making it a barrier to entry for prospective members and that is my whole point. i am on here looking for an alternative to hazing that will give me the same exclusivity that we have now ie 40% of a pledge class failing.

astalum, maybe you're right. maybe i don't understand what greek life is about. so why don't you tell me what it's supposed to be? is it supposed to truly be based upon brotherhood, philanthropy, and gpa? b/c if that's true then why is the stereotype that greeks only drink and party? maybe the real greeks who follow the ideologies that you mention are the honor societies? and what kind of brotherhood do you have? i've realized that brothers in my fraternity who have gone thru hazing actually are a lot closer then brothers at other fraternities who don't haze. case in point: before i pledged i used to go to a lot of fraternity parties. i went to this one house and one brother came in and was like, "hey i know you, aren't you in my fraternity?" now you tell me what kind of brotherhood that is. when i went to rush for my fraternity, every brother there knew every other brother's name/age/where they were from and knew even more about their own pledge brothers.

why do i get rid of 30-40% of pledges? b/c i want to give everyone an equal chance that's why. everyone who wants to pledge a fraternity should be able to pledge in my opinion and i want to see who comes out alive. if i only gave bids to those i thought would be good brothers, i could be easily missing a diamond in the rough. this is why i encourage everyone to come out and then we see who can hack it. and this is for hazing or non hazing i want to eliminate some people.

Uhm, getting a doctor degree or a CFA does not required anybody to be hazed. I like to ask you this, if you want exclusivity, why in the world would you accept as many people as you can, then weed them out? Why not be exclusive from the beginning? Why not except as little people as possible? Be like the Skulls, be extremely exclusive.

because i think that everyone deserves a chance to prove their worth and don't care about who your parents are, how rich you are, what your gpa is, how fat you are, who you were in hs, etc. everyone starts over with a clean slate, undergo the same program, and whoever makes it makes it. by doing this, everyone has a fair shot at the prize and the only person who determines if you make it is YOU. that's why i want to weed people out. CFA exam allows anyone to take it (with certain restrictions) and if you pass all three parts you can get the CFA. if not, you fail. thus exclusive. but it's a fair shot for everyone to take it and pass rite?

i'm also curious...i read from a few girls on here that not only were they not hazed, they were showered with gifts and encouragement throughout their pledge process. i would like to ask, why are you so proud of being in your sorority then? what makes it so great that anyone can get in based on superficial characteristics (i've noticed that some have hot girls, some have fat girls, some have smart girls but basically they all resemble the same type of girl for each sorority). and when you have pledge classes of 50, please also tell me how much you can tell me about each person. i'm very curious what type of brotherhood/sisterhood you can have when you spend 8 weeks getting to know 50 people. what are you willing to do for them besides doing fun stuff with them?

In reference to your first paragraph, I don't know what you were trying to say at all.

As I've said, I don't know why it's your goal to have 40% of your pledge class fail. I will admit that I do know some fraternities that haze, but NONE of them WANT people to fail. I guess I just don't understand why you're excited to lose brothers.

You asked "Is it supposed to truly be based on brotherhood, philanthropy and GPA?" Roughly, yes. Every national website for every fraternity emphasizes brotherhood, friendship, academics, philanthropy and tradition. I doubt you'll find any that say, "If you can't do pushups, you can't join." Because that's not what these organizations were founded on. And if you think that only honor societies follow these principles and guidelines, then again, you don't understand the purpose of social Greek organizations.

Oh, and you asked... if Greek organizations are based on these ideas, why is the STEREOTYPE that they all party and drink all the time? Because it's a stereotype.. an idea that isn't true. Don't get me wrong, a lot of Greeks drink and party (as do a lot of non-Greek students), but organizations don't promote getting wasted and doing stupid things.

You gave an example of how as pledges, you knew all of the brothers names, ages, and where they were from. Ya know what's amazing... pushups didn't put that information into your head. Studying did.

The examples that you're giving aren't the greatest. The point is, an exam tests what you know, therefore allowing you to advance. But they test you in relation to what you'll be doing after the exam. If you're going into the military, you have to take physical exams to see if you can handle the physical challenges you'll face in order to possibly go to war. If you're joining a football team, you need to go through try-outs to test your passing, kicking, catching, running skills, etc. to see if you'd be able to play in the big game. But if you want to join a Greek organization, you need to do pushups and get yelled at, so that when you become a brother, you can attend meetings, plan social events, participate in philanthropies, and do well in school. Makes sense.

Anyway, I've made my point. I give up. I'm done. :)

This. Because of the way Greek life is at my school (very small, very unpopular, no formal rush, etc.), my chapter is lucky if over 50% of the people we extend bids to pledge, and if even 75% of the people who pledge initiate. But we would LOVE it if every single person who we extended a bid to ended up initiating.

Why? Because our selection process (IMO) works. Every person we ask is someone the membership feels would make a good addition to our community. Exclusivity comes in because there are tons of people we DON’T extend bids to, including plenty of people who have made it very clear they would join in a heartbeat.

Of course, I also don’t get the wanting to be in an exclusive club mentality. I mean, yes, Greek organizations are exclusive, and I think most of us would agree that they have to be, given their structures and goals. But to me, at least, the point is not exclusivity for the sake of exclusivity, but exclusivity for the sake of creating a siblinghood (or sisterhood or brotherhood) that works, and that strives to achieve the organization’s ideals. If the organization’s ideals have something to do with surviving under physical pressure, fine, but otherwise I don’t see the point.

Personally, I’m interested in being part of a group of awesome, hard working, caring, etc. people who try very hard to embody my GLO’s mission. And what makes me proud of my organization? Well, exactly what I just said. It’s the fact that all of my siblings are awesome, and that we all push ourselves everyday to be better people by trying to live up to the ideals laid out by our founders — ideals that have nothing to do with withstanding hazing.

And, BTW, doing what I just said has brought out a LOT of untapped potential in myself and many of my siblings.

A) Because the stereotype is wrong and B) because sure, some chapters at some schools fail to live up to the ideals of their organization. But just because those chapters fail doesn't make their ideals any less about brotherhood, philanthropy, academic excellence, etc.

Yes, that should be the core values for all fraternities.

The more I read this guys post, the more I think he's not really Greek.

Wowwwwww.....could it be that earning your letters come AFTER you cross?? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm..*insert smiley with lightbulb over head here*......:rolleyes:

Like I said in an earlier thread....I'll take an active, community involved working MIP member over a letter rocking mofo ANYDAY!! :cool:

I can't believe people WANT to be hazed to feel they are accepted and appreciated.....truly sad.

Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't you set up a huge cage-like structure and put all the pledges in there and let them fight for their lives, kind of like Mad Max's Thunderdome. Then you'd only have the ones who were truly worthy of being your brothers come out alive.

You could charge admission to watch the "death matches" and it would greatly enhance your social budget! I'm sure the "hot sororities" would love to have mixers with the men who made it through!!

msl2008 is really a 40 year old prisoner with internet privileges.

he's been "hazed" eversince the other prisoners found out what he's there for.