For what it's worth - even in our beloved South, all college campuses are not alike. :eek: Within the same STATE you will find differences between campuses, and chapters of the same GLO. To cite an example with which I am familiar, no one will fail to miss that the campus climate and Greek system at the University of Texas - Austin and Texas A&M University are vastly different. Are there some similarities? Sure - you can find some cultural similarities. Most of the students are Texans, and there will be some aspects of being Texan that will be evident. But they are not the same.
There is a discernible difference in greek systems in the north, south, east and west. I think we all accept that.
But in terms of my sisters from other areas those differences are secondary to what we share. Were that not the case, there would be no sense in having an International organization that uses the same ritual. I've met sisters from all areas, and one of the things I cherish is the ability for what binds us together to overcome those geographical differences.I've met some great women who are totally different than I. I feel sorry for any member of a national/international GLO who wouldn't feel that bond with other members of the GLO.

I feel the same way SWTXBelle. What would be the fun of being in a international organization if you didn't feel any kind of connection to other members?

Haha, you're letting him get to you!

Also, this isn't directed at you specifically ( although you are an Ohio State fan! ), BUT:
I've noticed that in many of these North v South debates, the northerners continue to call out southerners for being "narrow-minded". I think it's narrow-minded to discount tradition and fairly ironic that those who accuse others of being anti-progressive don't want to consider the culture of the southeast or take the time to try and understand it.
Again, for emphasis, it's nothing personal towards Benzgirl, it's just a pattern I've been noticing in these arguments.

A pattern that I have noticed is that northerners often express a distaste for the idiosyncracies and customs of their southern brothers and sisters (often a vehement distaste), but they don't deny them being brothers and sisters. Some (definitely not all, but some) of the southerners are claiming that their northern brethren are not in fact brethren at all, and have in essence disowned the northern chapters for not being exclusive enough, or elite enough, or whatever their specfic standard may be that they find lacking. That I think is probably very troublesome and offensive to the northerners.

Hey, hey, hey - it's mainly southern FRATERNITY men, pbear! I see nothing but love from sorority women - for all their sisters (and NPC cousins)

^^^^Agreed. Our southern sisters are very warm and open to all.

I know, I agree, I just felt badly about singling out the guys which is why I emphasized the 'some'. :) But yeah, in truth it's just the guys from what I've seen in this thread and elsewhere...

Of course, that is problematic for more that just those from northern chapters. While I completely see how some get on the defensive immediately when someone from a southern chapter states something so bluntly, I can't understand why the first reaction is to attack whoever said whatever was offensive to begin with.
This is getting complicated, but I'll leave it at that I actually understand both sides, but am more offended by the northern arguments.

And it seems to be a pretty small section of the men, who for the most part admit more to having problems with chapters near them geographically that don't measure up for whatever reasons, even more than it's a south vs. other regions thing.

It's seems to be a self-perceived super-elite chapter thing maybe even more than a regional issue.

I definitely agree with this too. I didn't mean to condone the defensiveness, but I do understand it as a rather natural human reaction. I think it's one of those issues that is a shame from both sides, in many ways. The 'disowning' saddens me more than the defensiveness, which is why I likely keyed into it more.

For what it's worth, my experience is that of a midwesterner who lived in the south for a few years and feels very connected with southern friends.

This is very close to the point in my opinion. What grinds our gears is that some Joe Smo at North State University can just walk into one of our chapters up there and get a bid (not the case for every Northern chapter, but you get where I'm going). Meanwhile, down here, the exact opposite is true. Even if you're lucky enough to get a bid you then have to work your ass off (if you have a real pledgeship). When they walk around wearing hoodies w/ our letters on them it negates everything that we've worked for to our chapter synonymous with high standards. Again, this doesn't apply to every chapter of every fraternity at every northern university, but you want us to look at any guy with our letters and consider him an equal in our brotherhood? Are you serious?

Yep.

I feel they should be considered equal, but if they don't hold themselves to the same standard of gentlemen/did not take our fraternity serious then I would be highly furious. Guess its just a southern thing:D

I feel the same way. While they really are my brothers, I wish most of them weren't.

Bingo.

Exalt. If they take the fraternity seriously then that's all we can reasonably ask of them. I feel that at least 91% of southern fraternities take themselves very seriously.

From this and your other posts, I've got to say that I think you're SERIOUSLY misinformed.

Yep.

There's a reason that at the national gatherings, the Southerners hang out with Southerners and it's not only becaue of being Southern.

After reading the majority of the posts on this thread....there's no way he's misinformed.

Hello, EW. Did you affiliate with the UA chapter this year?

And I think you beautifully illustrated my point of why so many northerners have such a distaste for what I personally find to be incredibly excessive elitisim.

I openly admit I don't know as much about fraternities and their general beliefs, but is not this attitude about your brothers just as contrary to your ideals as the things you accuse your 'brothers' of doing in the first place? (And what exactly is a 'real pledgeship'? My mind initially leaps straight to hazing, but I hate to think the worst without at least clarifying.)

I just cannot think that you guys would expect people to not be openly hostile and defensive when these kinds of sweeping generalizations are made about your northern chapters.

From my outsiders perspective, the answer to your last question is yes, I did think that fraternity men would look at someone who has been initiated and accepted by their national organization as equal, as a brother. I'll acknowledge my obvious idealism in this case. :)

Well, if being a part of the same organization isn't what makes you brothers - if having the same ideals, same creed, having gone through the same ritual, being a part of a chain of men going back over a hundred years isn't what makes you brothers, what does that say about your GLO? You would say a man who has gone through all of that is not your brother because of his choice of clothing? A man who wears a hoodie instantly is somehow inferior? Pardon me for thinking that your standards are rather superficial if that is the case.
I also want to know about this sweeping generalization that all the northern chapters have no standards and will pledge anyone - what is this based on? Running into a few brothers from northern chapters you don't feel would make it on your campus? Are you so sure their standards aren't different, as opposed to inferior? (I know - it's a rhetorical question)
I sincerely don't understand why you would want to remain a part of an inter/national GLO if you feel this strongly. Far better to be a local, and not have to deal with those non-southerners.

I am literally speechless.
And if you're wondering what real pledgeship means... maybe you should find out what bows and toes means first.

best thread ever?

Egg salt.

Why do I feel like I'm reading a "paper vs pledging" thread?

Why is that very, very ironic?

Inquiring minds want to know . . .
 

First, what is my award for rendering PhiGam speechless? :)

I'm not sure if the "real pledgeship" remark is addressed to me - but what do you know of northern chapter's pledgeships? Rumor, hearsay? You've already said you don't mix with northern chapters, so I'm curious as to where you are getting the information which informs your opinion of these northern (perhaps western, too) chapters.
Shouldn't pledgeship be the same for all chapters - I believe HQs certainly strive for a certain uniformity in their programming. Admittedly, my experience with fraternity pledgeship is only being married to the president of a local as became a colony and then a chapter of Sigma Chi - so HQ ran the program.
So - please define your terms. What constitutes a "real pledgeship", and on what do you base your belief that only southern fraternity chapters have it?

Clothes do tell alot about a person in certain circumstances, but no not on that basis alone obviously.

www.greekchat.com...you should check it out sometime. It usually reaffirms my sweeping generalizations.

I've already established they were different. By our standards, inferior.

Fraternity life is so much more than just brotherhood.

It's regional tradition, rites of passage, a status symbol, a method of gaining wealth through connections and so on.

edit: I apologize for being 1 minute late so that you could "render me speechless".

I have male family members that were greek at an expensive, elite Ivy League college in the north and got the crap hazed out of them.

So would they be cool with you guys?

Oh, silly me - you read some things in an internet chat room that lead you to your generalization about all northern chapters. And here I was thinking you were relying only on rumor and hearsay!

I guess I've got egg on my face!:rolleyes:

eta - nittany, does he wear hoodies?

I'm sure you are just intimidated by my hotness. :)

No, I've never seen either in a hoodie. I don't think they'd even know what one was. I also don't know if they were really worn when they were in school anyway.

What does hazing have anything to do with it?

And I'd like to say that if we would get along, DKE at Yale because they're so steeped in tradition.

I guess my inference of the implication is off-base... but I don't think so.


ETA: and maybe you missed that I used the words "expensive" and "elite" because that seems to fit in the requirements being set forth as well... thought their "connections" and access to wealthy and elite stuff would make them cooler with you guys too...

I'm not saying you're off base... I'm saying that if you knew what bows and toes or elephant walk (lol) meant than you would understand what hes saying indirectly.
Also, the fraternities here are only about 600-900 per semester, its the sororities that are expensive.

Hazing down south is military in nature. Not the bullshit that gets on the national news in California or some place like that. I would say that hazing in the south is in the middle-tier...it's not terribly hard, but it's not soft either...there's alot of other things that go with being a pledge besides hazing and that's what puts our pledge programs in the tops.

They do have better connections and more wealth. DKE at Yale does, at least. I don't know about the other fraternities in the Ivy League. The Ivy League seems to be the exception to the Northern stereotype.

edit: By the way jackass, I believe he was saying "you better find out what bowsandtoes (((((the poster))) means", not the hazing term"

Interesting assumptions there.

Are you talking about the meaning or purpose behind those hazing practices?

Are these practices only done for the cool fraternities in the South?

I do know what "bows and toes" and "elephant walk (lol)" are, thus my assurance to you that clever "bonding" experiences like those are not new and in fact my male family members pledged in the "good old days" when hazing was de rigeur and much more of it was even above ground (the underground stuff was what you really had to fear -- they'd think what you guys call "bonding" these days is a cake walk).

And I'm cross-quoting you two again, this time in reverse. The assurance that they have access to connections and wealth was in response to the standards laid out below. Their fraternities, chapters and the school they attended are also WAY steeped in tradition.

So, looks like they check off all the boxes, would they be cool with you, then?

Hey, first of all, I'm female, secondly, I haven't called you any names, I'm not sure why you're starting that up, and third, if PhiGam meant YOU, the poster, I assume he would have written "find out what bowsandtoes means" not "find out what bows and toes means". I stand by my inference unless and until PG wants to tell me that's not what he was implying.

If they share similar interests, which any good ivy leaguer probably would, then absolutely.

It sounds like everyone sorta agrees now, and it’s almost back to one big happy family. The problem with most threads on GC is that it seems everyone reads a thread, and immediately inserts themselves into the issue (usually feeling attacked).

I’d like to give exalts to the thread creator, as well as the girl that went off on the couple page tirade on what Theta Phi Alpha is.