Precisely- and it would get messy for a reason :)

There have been several comments this evening suggesting that GC, in one form or another, should have resources for those seeking to AI- and in what format such support should exist (1 forum, 26 forums etc.)

But this totally misses the whole point.

AI is a path to membership granted at the discretion of a GLO.

Why would any GLO want to publish any policies or procedures for a form of membership over which they have sole discretion? What is the benefit to the GLO to restrain their freedom in granting membership? (and no the answer is not to say that they are missing out on all kinds of great adults who would AI if it were easier.)

The message is clear- the GLOs do NOT want to promote the AI route to membership. And it should be obvious why.

The GLOs, not GC and CERTAINLY not PNAIs, are the ones who decide how AI will work, and it is academic at best for there to be a debate about the best way a non-GLO entity can provide accurate and helpful information for PNAIs seeking initiation. Such information is just not available.

They vary from PNAM to PNAM. I've seen PNAMs in the same organization who had completely opposite AI journeys.

I really don't think even that's necessary. greeklawgirl's done a great job with her stickied post at the top of the AGD forum, and whatever little public AI there is regarding the Fraternity is already found her post.

Well, it's happened before. And GC knows I'm not making this up.

But still, I don't think the answer is to supress discussion completely.[/quote]

Ok, I'm not a member of an NPC (I know most of you know that, but I feel like I have to make the disclaimer for those who don't) but I still say "Hear, hear!"

But the real question is, where is the value in having open discussion of a process that is not defined by publicly stated rules and is intended to be something the GLO offers- not that the PNAI asks for?

Those who are offered AI, which is how this is typically done, will not need the guidance of strangers on the internet because they will have a close connection with the GLO into which they will be initiated.

Those who are shopping for letters are already going about AI the wrong way and are not only very likely to fail- but will humiliate themselves in the process. How does broadcasting this doomed adventure on a website help that person? How does it help the GLO? How does it help the reputation of the website where it is allowed to take place?

I see your point about freedom of speech being a great thing, but there is a reason most good internet forums that attract lots of members are moderated.

I will admit reading the AI board is very entertaining- and I have read way back into the older posts as time allows, but I have yet to read a story that had a happy ending purely because of the presence of GC. By that I mean a story of someone who came into this with ZERO connection to a sorority and then got initiated 100% as the result of help obtained here.

Instead this gets to be the place where people get the reality check they have coming anyway- and those who give that reality check find out that no good deed goes unpunished.

Granted it is also a place for wonderful new initiates to share their stories or have other respectful and on topic conversations- but it is sometimes hard to see that for all the other stuff.

Hmmm ...

I agree with most folks here that the AI forum is not a very good idea. But I can't bring myself to agree with the idea that all membership selection information is ritual. I can go to practically any NPC national site and see that to join as a collegiate someone must be a) female and b) a full-time student c) with a certain GPA. Now how Alpha Xi Delta chooses who to invite to a pref party or who to give a bid to is private. But I have no problem telling you that there is a minimum GPA, and if any other sorority doesn't want people to know they have a minimum GPA too, they're not doing a very good job of keeping it secret.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there are enough good reasons not to have an AI forum that we don't have to stretch for them.

The way I see it, what benefit does the AI forum provide? As far as I can tell, it is mostly of aid to sorority shoppers. I don't think this a good enough benefit-cost ratio for a site that supports Greek life. To the extent that NPC sororities (or for that matter any other GLOs) want to make alumnae initiation public, they have other ways to do it, and for the most part they don't choose to publicize it widely. As Greeks, it behooves us to respect what our own and other organizations choose to make public - there is a degree of information between "secret" and "totally public." NPHC groups express this so well when they talk about "discretion." That's what the AI board seems to have lost.

I agree with this, except that sometimes we aren't here for guidance, just support. People here understand that joining a sorority post-college can be a healthy, normal thing to do. (Notice I'm not saying common) I don't see a problem with "wishing you luck, hope you hear soon." Because unless you know something negative about User42439, you do wish that things turn out well for her.


f they're shopping then GC does the chapters a service in some ways by allowing the person to point that out themselves. I know that AI is not Recruitment, but the same question could be asked about a failed PNM, particularly one who may not ever have had a good chance from the start. How does it help them? It might not. But it might be useful. It may point out to the GLO that the system is working.I don't think that we're out to promote the reputation of GC. But it would be seen as a place where people DO tell you that hey, you're not going to have a chance. Or hey, "First you said you were AI-ing, then you said you were rushing, and you can't really look 21, you're probably crazy"

True, but I don't think that removal of the AI forum/closure of all threads is quite the way to do so.

I don't see why it's a bad thing to give people reality checks. Let people discuss it. If they cause themselves to bust, it's their own fault. And if, for example, and woman is approached to AI and starts the process, comes to GC.. then what? "Hi I'm AIing into..." is about as far as she will get before a)the thread is closed or b) she's mobbed by attack dogs and made to feel unwelcome. As much as people say they love their AI sisters (and I'm sure they do) a new AI on this forum might feel VERY uncomfortable about stating how she joined (or will soon be joining) XYZ

I think this is the most important part as well. But it is not as if a potential AI is sworn to secrecy either. If they can talk about the process they're going through (aka are not told that it is private) then they should. GC is group therapy for a lot of people. It's a way to relieve the stress of waiting.

I hope this makes sense. I guess I'm calling for moderation, not removal. And for what it's worth, the D9 intakes alums as regular members, this is very different from the AI process it seems to me.

^^^ = my.new.siggy

Discretion is something that has definitely gone by the wayside. I'm perfectly happy to have a PNAM recall their 'recuitment' story once the have been officially invited to join a group. I agree that using GC to pursue AI is not proper. If a person comes to GC inquiring about AI, and they know nothing about the process, they should be directed to the national office of the group they desire to join and the subject should be closed. At least, that's how I'd like to see it.

If that's not possible, then the only other option may be closing down the forum altogether. No matter what level of moderation is given to the forum, it is never the *right* amount at the *right* time. Moderating this forum could be a full-time job, and I know that I already have one of those, two if you count my family. Carnation is in the same boat, even more so, lol.

Unfortunately there isn't a perfect solution - someone is always going to be unhappy with the outcome.

Actually.. there are a few.. I know of two. There are probably more that I don't know of.

I definately support the AI subforum, because without it, I'm sure I would still be in limbo land today. Because AI is so rare in my GLO, things fell through the cracks inadvertantly by some people who were trying to get my paperwork through. Had it not been for four people here on this forum who helped me, one in particular who was able to find out where things hit a snag and get things moving for me again, I know I would not have been initiated today. I was nearly at three years waiting.. until some kind souls on this forum went out of their way to help me.

It was also wonderful being able to get moral support while I waited for "the big day." It had been such a long emotional roller coaster.. and I was emotionally drained from the ups and downs. It was nice to have someone to talk to who had been through it.

And before someone screams, "your experience isn't typical".. no it isn't. I don't believe there IS such a thing as "typical." Everyone's story is different.

Do I believe people should get rec's from people on the forum? Absolutely not. I said it before, and I'll say it again.. I don't believe in writing recs for PNAIs or PNMs without knowing them in person... or it defeats the purpose of a rec.

But, do I believe this should be a place where PNAIs can get moral support and ask general questions? Absolutely.

Do I believe that this should be a place where women with former connections can network? Absolutely.

Remember the positives of this forum: The PNAIs on this forum are constantly warned about discretion, and about how difficult and rare it is to become an AI.

That is a good thing because if someone with no prior connections wants to give it a shot.. they'll know ahead of time they will have to "proceed at their own risk" and that the chances of AI success are small.

adpiucf - you are awesome!

I have yet to see a GLO member (besides Tom) on GC jump up and say "Here's our AI information!! Here's our AI information!!". And being that this is the ALUMNEA INITIATION forum, Tom volunteering LXA AI info doesn't count.

Nice try, but it's moot point.

Wow.

If you haven't read the AI forum, and some of the past stories/posters that got people to the point of not wanting to have anything about AI on here at all, then you REALLY don't have the right to voice an opinion.

IT HAPPENS. FOR REAL, YO.

Again, this is WHY people are trying to get rid of AI discussion and why you should quit supporting "free exchange of information" unless you know all the facts.

Actually it's some people... not all. There are also a number of people who enjoy the AI subforum, and some, like me, who found it quite helpful when going through the process (please see my prior post.)

Yes, it happens a few PNAIs seek sponsorship on GC. But.. so what? They can ask.. but have they gotten any takers? I don't know of anyone who has sponsored anybody else for AI on Greek Chat without meeting them.
It's just like PNMs who ask for recs on Greek Chat. Is that any reason to shut down the recruitment forum?

Some...not including Tom, you, and 1 Alpha Gam. Clear enough now??

Giving someone a REC FOR RUSH is NOT THE SAME as SPONSORING for AI.

Asking for a rec for rush is a HELL of a lot different than asking someone to be your sponsor for AI.

Are you trying to allege that Tom, me and 1 Alpha Gam are the only people who favor having an AI subforum? I think you'd find you're sadly mistaken. It is really the vocal minority who want it gone.. not the majority of GC'ers. Clear enough now? ;)

Of course it's different.. but they're both inappropriate... and no reason to shut down whole forums. One can ask for sponsorship or a rec, but getting them is a whole 'nother story!

There are quite a few people on GC who don't find it inappropriate to help someone find a local alum to give a PNM a rec. There isn't anyone on GC who thinks it's appropriate to sponsor random people on GC for AI.

So? If that is the case, what's the problem. A PNAI can ask, but she's not going to get anywhere getting a sponsor on GC.

Oh for crying out loud in a bucket.

IT HAS HAPPENED. What part of this is not penetrating??

Like I said before, I think that the reason you're so cavalier about all this is you know ZTA alum initiation is few and far between and always has been, so it's a moot point as far as you're concerned.

It HAS happened? To whom and by whom? Please feel free to PM me if you don't feel comfortable naming names here. I have never heard of it.

And, no, it's not a "moot point"-- because I read the AI forum and enjoy it.. and don't want to see a vocal minority ruin it for the rest of us.

Amended to add: Alpha Frog seems to think nobody believes in sponsoring an AI from GC... so either she is right or you are.

Jesus Christ... "nobody" on GC is a generic term for 99.99999% of everybody. There are hundreds of thousands of members, so if there's an exception, it's going to happen. Why must you be so f*ing literal?

So then you're saying that it happens but is extremely, extremely, extremely, extremely rare? .00001 %? So then, what's the problem?

That's the problem.

It's a problem that it's rare that someone is sponsored on Greek Chat? You'd like to make it common?

Who was sponsored and who did the sponsoring? Again, please feel free to PM me the names. I have never heard of it. Or are you assuming?

Do a search.

No blueangel, it really happened. This woman initially went to a few different sororities for AI attempts, none of them worked out, and then was OFFERED a sponsorship -- really out of the blue -- by a member of GC in a fourth org. When she posted her story and mentioned that she was offered sponsorship on GC, it seemed to invoke a virtual slew of "SPONSOR ME!!!!" requests. I'm not going to comment on this particular woman's story since she's been initiated now and that's all that matters, but unfortunately, it seemed to put the idea in the random PNAIs' heads that you could just get anyone from the internet to sponsor you or walk you through the AI process for their sorority.


ETA: the problem is not with this particular woman, or that this only happened once, the problem is it's really obnoxious when PNAIs basically spam the board with "sponsor me" requests. Most have been deleted now, but these same PNAIs are the ones that start bitching and cussing everyone out on the board when the GCers are like "This is not the appropriate way to obtain sponsorship." It's obnoxious that this bs clogs up what should ordinarily be an interesting forum. Since I feel like there's a small handful of really great PNAIs that are going about the AI process in the right way and a whole hell of a lot of freakshow PNAIs that got cut from every sorority in college because they have no social graces, I think it's appropriate to either close the board and let the good PNAIs post in their respective sororities' forums, or start immediately closing down AI shopping threads like the D9 forums do.

No, it has really happened on this forum.

One person.. that's what all this "big deal" is about? I'd still like to know who this was and who sponsored her.

What's the problem if a bunch of people ask.. just say no. And.. I haven't seen a "slew" of sponsorship requests. Where are they?

All that is needed is a "stickie" that says "Do not request sponsorship from GC members." Simple painless solution to a problem I just, frankly, don't see.

If new people actually read the stickies, it might be ok (still not ideal, but ok), but they don't. Why do you think we're always getting dumb newbie questions, even though there's a stickied thread telling new people what questions are dumb...???

In my PM box, for one.

Or they get deleted after they turn into trainwrecks.

What difference does it make who either party involved was? Just accept the fact that it has happened, and that that is part of what the underlying problem is.

You sure are wanting a lot of information for someone who gets so defensive when someone on GC is "identified". If either party wants to "out" herself, let them do it on their own. Don't come here asking people to tell you who it was (whether by posting or PMing).

This has happened at least twice. Why are you entitled to know who?

I think it's kind of lame that I asked that alphagamoochagoo or whatever her name is several questions and then she decided to demand that any questions to her be taken to PM. I guess she can't answer them.

I am a journalist, and I like to have the facts verified before I accept something as fact. I have never seen this happen, and nobody has provided a link or a name. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but I never saw it happen. I'd like to see the post. I haven't been able to find it in a search.

If it was a public post, it is not "outing". "Outing" is when someone posts personal photos from another site of someone without their permission, or personal information such as their hometown, age, etc. without their permission.

This issue seems to be much ado about nothing.

It happens a lot. A friend of mine is a recent AI who was on this board. She had all her stuff deleted because she was getting PM sponsorship requests. Stupid and disgusting.

She was pissed because she did AI quietly, only posted when she got invited and then got this.

A lot of AIs are pissed off by this forum...at least that is what she told me.

Forgot to mention....there are also people on here who contact PNAI and ask if they want introductions...not sure how I feel about that either.

I get PM sponsorship/alumnae group introduction requests, and I'm an undergraduate. It freaks me out, really. I had one PNAI offer to be my chapter advisor (!!!) if I helped her get initiated.


ETA: blueangel, I searched for it for you: http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...threadid=57188

Your profession is irrelevant. You can like whatever you want, but that doesn't mean you're entitled to the information.

I'll have b*lls of steel and name them publicly:

sagesofages sponsored adduncan for Phi Mu
GPhiBLtColonel did it for Cluey, navane, & houstonchica for GPhiB.
I've been approached via PMs for sponsorship multiple times and now I just delete them, so I don't have the names anymore.
TrojanGirl was sponsored into KD by another KD member on GC, but I can't remember specifically who it was. (edit: sorry: I was incorrect here. I've apologize for this here..and also later on in the thread. Thank you.)

I used to be more open-minded to women pursuing AI through their own recommendation but I am no longer and the whole idea makes me uncomfortable, due to the downturn of events. If someone's AI pursuit comes to a grinding halt, who am I to get involved and help get it jumpstarted again? Maybe those local women are saying "no" in a tacit manner (i.e. ignoring the PNAM, hoping they'll go away), because they know something that I don't.

And also, by tacit, I mean: implied or indicated (as by an act or by silence) but not actually expressed. By doing "nothing', they're hoping that the PNAM will take the hint and drop the whole pursuit issue. I don't think that this is very nice, but a lot of people are uncomfortable with confrontation.