It would be bad if it was liquor. If you get sick off of beer you're a big p**sy.

Macallan, is it your experience that chapters that big have the pledges interview every brother/every brother meet with every pledge??? Also, what would you say the average pledge class for chapters that would require that. Plus, would the interviews absolutely have to be "one on one"?

I've seen it done differently at many different chapters. Some make the pledges interview the entire chapter, some make the pledges interview just the members living in the house, sometimes it has to be one on one, sometimes it can be a group of pledges with a couple members.

There are all different sizes of pledge classes.....I can't really answer that. I'd say 30 - 50 pledges is an average size class.

Given enough quantity anything can get you sick. The member was an a** though. Luckily the pledge got his stomach pumped but was otherwise okay. :)

I know, I was kidding.

I know you were. :)

we make ours get 10 a week. We have over 100 guys, works great.

God forbid they have a heart attack and die. Or at least get rushed to the infirmary and almost die. And how about the press afterwards.

When did upper body strength become a predictor of a quality brother, unless, of course, you have a weak IM lacrosse team.

Kidding, what kind of answer is that when "PLEDGES" have died from to much water consumption, is that a joke also or just irresponseable?:mad:

While this may be funny to you it isnt to a lot of us.

Tom, you are ridiculous. I really don't have anything to say to you.

It was a joke......about not being able to hold your beer. Chill the F**k out.

Yes, I think a pledge dying from drinking too much water is an absolute joke, and extremely idiotic. Both parties in that situation are morons as far as i'm concerned...the pledge and the active.

Heart attack??!? Are you kidding me? When have you heard of healthy 18-21year old men getting heart attacks from doing pushups!?

Physical training is done as part of a lineup. You know, those things good chapters do to make their pledges earn the letters? We don't just shower them with hugs and corny ritual talk and expect them to respect the org, they have to earn the right to wear the letters and learn my ritual.

I don't see how doing pushups is any more strenuous than those crazy line dances that bglos do. If one of them died of a heart attack...I guess you could say the same things.

Mix alcohol, sleep deprivation, and physical stress, and death occurs more frequently than you think.
But, I'm sorry, perhaps you have the medical training and research to know what you assert.
I've had to clean up the legal mess guys like you leave for their inter/nationals several times, and guys in my fraternity have to pay 200 dollars a man for insurance because of attitudes like yours.
You've got the perfect right to act stupidly, just don't try to convince any of us that you're not.

While doing a search for something else I came across this site.
On several threads, including this on, there have been conversations on what is and what is not hazing. We have seen laws posted but I found something that seems to be based or biased on common sense as well as laws:
http://www.stophazing.org/definition.html

http://www.stophazing.org/moreexamples.htm

I read the definition. I stopped at "emotional harm."

What is that?

That's kind of like the "mental discomfort" definition which someone posted earlier. So ambiguous as to be meaningless. So meaningless as to be dangerous if interpreted by the wrong people.

I think we're averse to using hard and fast terms to define hazing as collegiate members will find the loopholes faster than those loopholes can be closed. On the other hand, shouldn't we also be conscious about the fact we're using terms which defy definition?

I have stated multiple times here that I do not condone alcohol + hazing. I believe in hazing that serves a purpose, not stupid hazing. Stupid hazing = forced drinking, forced eating, homo erotic hazing, etc.

I want to see some proof that there has been deaths from healthy pledges doing push ups that were not intoxicated. Until you show me that, you can take your worthless GHQ garbage and shove it up your a**. It is not a coincidence that EVERY good southern chapter I have been to (15+) comprising of different large orgs (SAE, Phi Delt, EX, EN, KA, etc) all of them top tier on their campus have one thing in common....

I don't blame you for your opinions though, I'm sure you are in your late 20s maybe 30s+ and are completely out of touch with reality when it comes to how chapters REALLY operate...not the way GHQ sees them operate. Sorry I'm a realist and I will say it how it is.

Yes. Your post sums up everything that's wrong with all the hazing laws and policies today.

If we mean "you are not allowed to make fun of a pledge for not knowing fraternity history" or whatever - we need to say that, EXPLICITLY. and every other single thing we don't want to happen. It takes a lot longer, but if we really want to prevent it from happening it's what must be done.

Perhaps your chapter should spend more time teaching manners and less time hazing.

And BTW, I have left more pledges quivering in fear without ever raising my voice or insisting on stupid, sophomoric physical demands than you could ever hope to. I still meet guys I questioned fifteen years ago who break out in a cold sweat just looking at me. I've had guys run out of the room. I've had guys break down and cry in front of me. I've had men tell me it was one of the most emotional things they've ever experienced. I believe that heathy stress is an integral part of a meaningful pledge program. I know what I'm doing when I interact with pledges, which I do 2-3x a week. Athletic programs insist on check-ups before putting a man through calestenics and have trained personnel ready to deal with problems. So does the military. Do you?
Do you tell your professors that they don't know what they're talking about? Do you think 30 year olds have nothing of value to share with you? You are doomed to a rough few years ahead, sir. Perhaps your should spend some more time thinking about your ritual that you claim to be so proud of.

Someday they will understand. Hopefully, it won't be too late.

Although it is rare, sometimes seemingly healthy people have hidden problems that even a doctor hasn't found.

Several years ago, a very good friend of mine, a health "nut" and runner dropped dead in the ESPN newsroom the night before he was supposed to go on the air there. We all have heard stories of athletes who have died unexpectedly.

Your comments vis-a-vis ritual, manners and experience are on target as well.

I know of quite a few chapters that have been snatched because young men or women have suddenly collapsed due to physical training exercises. There was one particular instance where a pledge died on the spot after doing push ups. Some people are rushed to the hospital after doing other strenuous exercises.

Keep in mind that otherwise healthy young adults (some college athletes) suddenly die doing routine things or playing basketball. It happened to an acquaintance of mine. The body can do some unpredictable things. Also, some people have holes in their hearts or other conditions that they are unaware of or have not told the pledge leaders about.

Do whatever you do but just because someone hasn't been injured or died from something so "simple" as physical training under YOUR watch doesn't mean that physical training isn't a potentially dangerous form of hazing. It might happen less than 5% of the time but that statistic won't make you feel any better if/when it happens to YOUR pledge and YOUR chapter.

So unless you give PT tests to pledges BEFORE they start doing these things AND you can predict the future, be aware of all of the costs and benefits. Just because something is effective in making pledges doesn't mean it's innocently effective.

:rolleyes: Don't be a moron. We're talking about hazing pledges. That's a topic that doesn't have to be broken down to NPHC, NPC, and IFC. Hazing is a universal problem so don't attempt to create division as a diversionary tactic.

Either case, the strolls that BGLOs do are typically for already initiated members. If they pass out as a result of WILLINGLY participating in a stroll, it is unfortunate, but it is NOT hazing and the chapter and organization are NOT responsible.

So what if a pledge is WILLING to participate in doing pushups?

Great. :) But pledge "willingness" is different than the willingness of duly initiated members. If they could get away with NOT doing it and still be a pledge in good standing, then wonderful. Chances are, they couldn't get away with NOT doing it. And pledges along with pledge leaders know this reality.

BWHAHAHAHAHA @ crazy line dances

I think its a pretty easy choice, you either do it, or you leave. You're telling me 18 year old kids can go fight for the country, yet they shouldnt be made to choose between participating in fraternity activities or walking out the door? Give me a break. If you're worried about having to make that choice, just don't pledge in the first place. Go join SGA or something with all the other greek rejects.

They always have the option of walking out the door. We would even give them a ride home if needed and we make sure to let them know that. They would still be treated with respect on campus when we run into them. This has happened in the past, everything done during pledgeship is voluntary they can either do it or depledge.

Interesting post and concept!

So a "pledge" dies then what is it called?:confused:

Some people just do not get it do they?:rolleyes:

As they have said before, find me an incident where that has happened. I'm sorry your pledgeship was easy, but that's not how things are done in top chapters. Find an incident where a healthy pledge has somehow keeled over doing physical work. I know there have been alcohol related incidents, but that's not what we are advocating.

I know there are stories as mentioned before, but find it on here. Actual proof instead of something you heard most likely on greekchat

Tom, what the hell are you talking about? I've never heard of people dying doing scavenger hunts or line ups. If someone dies doing what we do, there'd only be one thing to call it, an accident. If your line of reasoning is that we somehow caused their death through our activities, then I guess Auburn is responsible everytime someone dies driving back to school. People have the option to participate, nobody makes them.

People pull the "hazing kills" line out all the time. Hazing doesn't even kill in situation we won't do...like making them eat gross food or shame themselves. The more I read this board, the more I think hazing is a good thing...Maybe some on here would have gained a little thicker skin and realized that personal responsibility is not a bad thing.

I do believe that would qualify as "emotional harm". If a grown man is still having a physical reaction (sweat) to "the most emotional things they've ever experienced" it's not because the emotional things were positive experiences for him.

Actually there was a story ( I think last year) of two female pledges who drowned while participating in a pledging activity. I don't recall there being alcohol involved. I'll see if I can find an article. It was a huge deal on the news in L.A.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/09/23/sorority.death/ Well it was 2002, but here's the article.

And I agree with SoCalGirl above.

What do you not understand?

Okay, you have "Plegdes" do push ups and one dies because you do not know he has a physical problem and neither does he.


Cool, that is neat isnt it?

Do you and your active chapter care?

Edited to Ask a question:

So, this person is only A "PLEDGE" if this happens.

He dosent count as a person?

Tom, I don't get the impression that he wouldn't CARE if someone died. I don't agree with him on the hazing issue, but don't make him out to be Satan.

If someone dies doing pushups because of a physical injury nobody knows about, thats just a freak accident. The same could happen if he had to walk up the stairs to class on a hot day. Now if he starts feeling faint and you keep making him work, thats one thing, but if you're like "do 20 pushups" and he suddenly dies in the middle of it, I don't think you could blame the fraternity.

Fixed that for you.

The issue was never whether or not they could technically choose not participate in the "hazing" activities (that may or may not "pledging"). The issue was always what happens as a result of choosing not to participate in the "hazing" activities.

That the fraternity can be held responsible for. You don't have to "like" the law but ignorance or disapproval of the law is no excuse.

Don't make assumptions just because people are trying to get you to see both sides of the issue.

Mistake of fact can be an excuse, however.

Are you stupid? What does this have anything to do with doing pushups? It talks about some stupid sorority blindfolding their pledges and putting them in the oceans. Go find something real. Ya'll cite cases that apparently are, but haven't actually pointed me to any news article where it has. I'm glad I was put through a real pledgeship instead of walked-in like a mcdonalds and walked out with a membership. Sooner or later this thread will be locked because no one can answer me with a real answer. Erik will probably stumble around the issue claiming it's happened, DST will claim she's a liberal and the latter will be correct.

Same thing that you guys said happens in a "non-hazing" chapter when they don't do what the pledging process asks them to do...we drop them.

What do you do to a pledge that fails his tests, disrespects actives, etc? You drop them. It is the same thing. WE don't have to let anybody join our chapters, we are EXCLUSIVE. If they are doing the lineups, etc. it is because they want to do it, they WANT to earn the right to wear the letters like the actives do, they want to earn the respect of the active chapter because they know actives were once pledges as well and did the same thing for generations. If they don't want that, I will show them the door because they dint fit the mold my chapter is looking for. THAT is pledgeship.