"purposeful hazing" now THIS I have to hear about.

I still can't see how eating behind toilets rocks. Are you teaching them to lay in the bed they made? It should be so clean they can eat off of it? Are the backs of toilets supposed to be spitshine clean? Is it normal to be able to eat off a toilet?

I can't think of a single normal person whose toilets are that clean.

Doing line ups seems to make more sense than that! Seriously.

All I know is that if one of my three founders caught some seniors making freshmen "rats" eat off a toilet they'd challenge the bullies to an honor fight.:p

"Southern Mansion" style? Do we have any architecture students here? My guess is that this style may have a somewhat more formal name -- like Georgian or Federalist.

I have this vision of sometime 20 to 30 years or so into the future with Shinerbock, Bows and Toes, Macallam and a few others sitting on the porch under the Greek columns, sipping Bourbon and Branch Water, talking about how great the Fraternity system used to be before it died due to hazing and alcohol lawsuits that finally sent all of the organizations into bankrupcy because of all the legal actions and chapter closings.

"Ah, those were the good old days."

That argument doesn't work. Just because someone was great and also participated in an event that had nothing to do with his/her greatness, that doesn't mean the event he/she participated in was great, or even acceptable.

For instance:
We didn't need to abolish slavery. Plenty of great people had slaves.


Just out of curiosity, shiner, what do you consider the tie that binds you to your brothers? You mentioned in another thread that you might not call someone from another chapter your brother. So, I'm wondering if your chapter has made the pledging process the tie that binds its members to one another.

I would hope it would be your rituals that unite the brothers. You've complained about how your HQ has changed your ritual, so at least we know you perform your ritual (or something). Not trying to be rude, but maybe you (as in your chapter) should do a ritual workshop or something. Get all the guys together and analyze what your founders valued. I would be willing to bet that their values were incorporated into the ritual. And, in their eyes, THAT (and not hazing) is what should create a quality and strong brotherhood.

There's a lot of logical fallacies in comparing this statement with shinerbocks.

Whose eyes? Learn how to write. Jesus Christ. We are southern gentleman, we are born knowing the values. Learning values from ritual to create brotherhood is not going to work. Furthermore, why would we teach pledges ritual? They're pledges! We are talking about building brotherhood by hazing before they become members. I'm not sure how your organization works, but they don't learn ritual until they become members.

I don't care if you're from the South, North, East or West, the only things you are "born" knowing is how to cry, eat and poop. :) In all seriousness, I don't think Sydney was advocating teaching pledges ritual AT ALL - rather saying that your chapter (the brothers only) should look at the values contained in your ritual and treat your pledges according to those values.

I understood the point.

"Born knowing." Give me a break.

Pledges, new members, etc should know our values, even know our ritual, without knowing that they know it. It should, and sad to say that I do drop the ball on this quite often, be such a part of our being that we display our purpose and our ritual in everything that we do.

I'm getting sick of this "I'm from the south, I know values" conversation. Just as many people in the North have strong values very similar to yours. Just as many people in the South lack values. Everyone can benifit from diving deeper into our ritual. We had a "know your ritual" semester, where our ritual chair went up at every meeting and we talked about everything from the spiritual aspect to the practical aspect of our ritual. It made a huge difference in how we as sisters treated one another and how we treated our new members.

**cough** Britney Spears **cough**

Excuse me.:)

Exactly. I was pointing out his logical fallacies. I stand behind what I said: just because someone is great and he/she participated in an event that is unrelated to his/her greatness, that doesn't mean the event is great, or even acceptable. Just because great people went through the old Greek system, that doesn't make the old system great... or acceptable.

Perhaps you should brush up on your reading comprehension skills. I said, "...analyze what your founders valued. I would be willing to bet that their values were incorporated into the ritual." I don't think I'm the one who needs to learn something here. (In other words, the answer to your question is YOUR FOUNDERS.)

Funny... most of the southern gentlemen I know, especially the ones who would complain about things such as the de-Christianizing of rituals, generally refrain from using the Lord's name in vain. I guess you weren't born knowing that particular value.


Therein lies your problem. I'll ask you the same question I asked shiner. What, if (by your own admission) it isn't your ritual, unites the brotherhood?

Oh, that's cold.
(Which sorority is she in? Oh, never mind.)

Maybe to be the one with values you have to go to college.

But... gasp... that would imply that values are learned and not something you're just born with! :eek:

Alright, I've been gone all day, I'll try and catch up. As for the "southern mansion" style, what the hell do I know about architecture. <--I don't even know if I spelled it right, thats how little I know. Basically I was saying that in the south you're expected to build nice houses, so you cant just throw up anything.


Back to the hazing, first to kyle. Yeah, that breakfast thing is not only incredibly safe, but fun too. None of the pledges have ever had any pause, and it really sinks in with them. We do it at a point in pledgeship in which they're not working hard on the house, and naturally they've come to feel its our house they are cleaning. Our point is, that it is there house too, and it is an illustration about how their efforts effect not only the brotherhood, but their pledge class. As I've said before, they're not eating like dogs off the floor. If you think its wrong, good for you, but it works, and the pledges understand what we're saying, and its usually funny for everyone involved.

Now to the next young lady who said something...the slavery argument is ridiculous and not close to valid. Many of yall on this site act like hazing lowers a persons value and makes them insensitive to others, damages their self esteem, etc... My point was that many great men in this country went through "purposeful" hazing, and I imagine we'll see the shift of the quality of our leaders. Note, I'm not saying that abolishing hazing is going to directly lead to a crappier society, I'm saying that this entire system of zero personal responsibility is gonna catch up with us. We don't make people earn anything, and I really think my generation is going to have less men of character than my fathers. However, hopefully we're still building them down here.

As for purposeful hazing, heres what it does. It gives you a role in your pledge class. It lets you know that you are not independent of the other guys. You must depend on each other to get through, and when you drop the ball, the rest of your pledge class is punished. Our pledges are punished together, and they're praised together. For those who don't understand the concept of responsibility, I'll tell you what this does. It establishes a bond among the pledge class, with each individual realizing he must trust his friends, and also do his individual part. Thus, when these guys become brothers, they have specific times they can reference, and say "I remember when we had to do _______, and I was totally dependant on all of yall, and all of you came through." You don't get that when you simply walk through pledgeship. The strongest bonds come from adversity, if you don't believe, ask veterans. Before somebody stupid asks, I'm not saying we are building bonds that strong, but the concept still works. That is the reason we "haze" our pledges. They begin pledgeship as confident kids who have a lot going for them, but who havent put it together. When they are intiated, they are tougher, have more confidence, have respect and trust for the brothers, and have respect and trust for the guys in their pledge class. Somebody, please tell me how that is bad for the greek system.

Oh gosh forgive me, that was stupid. Maybe only the ones with values are the ones that get to git themselves an education. Is it like a special question part on your college applications?

"Do you have values? If no, throw your application in the trash right now. If yes, continue on to question 2"

I don't know the correct answer either. That's why I asked the question. The pic you posted looks somewhat like the Delt Shelter at my Alma Mater which opened in 1970 and sleeps 80 or so which would make it a little smaller.
http://www.ouifc.org/dtd/dtd_house.jpg
Delta Tau Delta Shelter, Ohio University, Athens, Ohio

Obviously, the picture is cropped, and it is built down in to a hill, so there are a couple of levels above the street and (I think) three below.

I dunno much about it, its KA's new house, the most recent house completed at AU. I don't know how many it sleeps, it is pretty large and sits kind of up on a hill. KA has about 130 or so members, but I'm not sure how many of their guys live in house.

hilarious. I am not the one to open my mouth about these things, but you are full of crap. I know for a fact, that you are dead wrong about atleast one of those SN chapters. I will not say which because this board is filled with toolbags that will probably call their nationals. The chapter I speak of hazes, and hazes very hard.

Shiner-". The strongest bonds come from adversity, if you don't believe, ask veterans. Before somebody stupid asks, I'm not saying we are building bonds that strong, but the concept still works."

Since when does College Llife come even close to Close Combat?

IMHO-Never should.

I didn't deny that they do -- as Shiner is so fond of saying, brush up on those reading comprehension skills. I merely said that there seems to be a movement away from hazing, even in the South. One of those chapters of which I have pretty recent/direct knowledge, has in fact backed off a bit, or even a lot. I'm know that there are still quite a few chapters, especially in the South which have not yet adopted national programming, and still are 100% traditional. I never denied that. I don't believe it'll work for many chapters to change overnight and still be able to maintain their elite status. On the other hand, they're taking a gamble in even existing at all.

In terms of numbers, our Kansas chapter was a good example of our National's willingness to close an elite chapter. That, or Arkansas. Vanderbilt wasn't doing too poorly when they were closed. There have been quite a few others, but it's too early in the morning. At this time, these chapters face a choice. Either change, or sooner or later, they will be forced to change. Many have seen the light, and are taking measured steps towards change.

I don't know if I would consider that Kansas chapter anywhere close to elite, and I know the Arkansas one wasn't. It was clearly old row, but at the time of closing it was filled with toolbags whose only claim to fame was winning like 5 straight intermural titles. The fraternity after disbanding became [edit], and it made even more sense.

(ktsnake: let's not single out active groups with unsubstantiated attacks, k?)

Jon, when I say things like "before somebody stupid says something, I'm not saying..." that means not to ask the stupid question I mentioned.

Again you are (disclaimer: allegedly) dead wrong about your assumptions with said chapter. What chapters tell their nationals and their advisors, and uptight alumni is night/day from what really happens. Hazing has a direct correlation with how strong a chapter is (fraternities only). Spare me your PC sugar coated BS, I see this stuff first hand from the perspective of an active, not some out of touch GHQ, alumni, advisor, etc.

To alter the original question a little bit, I wonder if HQs would want to know if chapters are valuing something (i.e. hazing) as the connective tissue between brothers instead of the ritual. While neither shiner, bows, nor elephant have confirmed that their chapters value hazing in that manner, they have implied it. If that's actually the case, I think it's very unfortunate and unfair to the new brothers. Not just from a hazing POV, but from a ritual-valuing POV as well.

Perhaps I'm being overly ritual-sensitive; I'm a ritual-hugger so to speak. I LOVE my ritual and what it stands for. But, more than that, I love the fact that it is that ritual which binds me to KDs everywhere; it has for the past 100+ years, and it hopefully will continue for another 100+ years. I'd feel like I missed out on something if my chapter had valued the pledging process/hazing as the tie that binds me to my sisters, because it is our ritual that serves that purpose.

Am I being naive here? I thought one of the purposes behind having an HQ was to ensure that new brothers/sisters are connected, regardless of the chapter, by a common thread. After all, it is HQ that supplies ritual equipment to each chapter. I imagine one of the reasons for that is to make sure that all chapters experience a very similar bonding experience -- RITUAL.

I'm sorry to go off like this, but I think HQs would definitely want to know if this is going on. Again, not just because it involves hazing, but mostly because it places something chapter-specific above the ritual (which is supposed to be organization-specific). Does that make any sense?

Even if you don't haze, I think it's a little naive to say you'll have the same bonds with your brothers or sisters everywhere simply because you share the same ritual. Unless you work at a national level or get very involved with an alum chapter, the bonds made in your collegiate chapter will most likely be the strongest. Before I get 800 posts chiming in, I know there are exceptions to this. But for the TYPICAL fraternity or sorority member, that's how it is.

I mean, I would probably have more in common with someone else who went to Clarion or is from Pittsburgh than I would with my sisters from other parts of the country. That doesn't mean it isn't neat to meet sisters and know that we share things, but I don't think it trumps any other kind of friendship.

I actually agree w/ 33 about something. Most rituals, although often extensive in practice, are quite simple in theory. I mean, its basically like saying "hey we're all Americans." I mean, we'll support each other against outsiders and try to help each other, but we don't all share close ties or like each other.

I hear you, 33. I'm not saying that I would feel as connected to a sister from another chapter as I do to someone in my own... I don't mean to suggest that ritual "trumps" other kind of friendship. But I think it is the ritual that is supposed to create that special bond between brothers/sisters, not hazing. I get the feeling that some of the chapters that are admitting to hazing see that as the bonding experience that matters, and not the new brothers' ritual experience as the important one.

My "bonding" experiences when I think of them are things like watching Days of Our Lives together, mixers, sucking at philanthropy bowling, bid nights, stuff like that. To be quite honest, ritual was a very small part of it.

Its hard to discuss this without revealing too much, but I was always under the impression that most rituals really boiled down to a couple of vague principles.

Our bonding comes through things you do in pledgeship, away game road trips, spring breaks, formals, hurricane parties, fraternity fights, nights at the bar, etc.

Absolutely correct!

Which is the same bond the Southern chapters feel with each other, at least to some extent. Rituals cool and all, but our chapter and it's own history is what unites us, not our nationals. They're just some relatively useless (except for insurance and such) umbrella organization. It seems that new row chapters are more connected to the nationals than the ones who have a quite extensive history as a chapter itself. It's still decently cool to meet one of our own somewhere that is outside of the campus context, but I would much rather hang out with those who share my values and tastes in the arts and so on.

Yeah, I mean when we went to convention, we were going to the bars with the Ole Miss and UGA guys. If there were two national fraternities having convention in the same place, it wouldnt surprise me to see the two auburn chapters hanging out together at the bar instead of their respective national fraternities.

I can't believe shinerbock and 33 just had about identical posts.:eek:

I actually do agree with him on some things when he has the asshat turned down to 2 or so. :)

I think where Sydney is going is the point that seemed to come across (not saying this is what you said, but this is kinda how it came across) that "if he didn't get hazed, and more importantly if he didn't get hazed in the way I'm accustomed to, he isn't a brother of mine." It's like the old "pledging vs paper" debate that the NPHC groups have.

I know that the sisters that are joining my group now have a pledge process that's VASTLY different from mine. I'm sure mine was vastly different from some of the women who pledged the same time as me at different schools. What matters to me is how I get along with them, and more importantly, what they give. Just because I can't require you to learn history doesn't mean you can't go ahead and do it anyway. If you do the least amount of anything possible, it doesn't matter how or when or where you joined, the respect you receive from me will be nil. That doesn't mean hazing. That means you do things like showing up at the house just to hang out (not only when you have to come there for meetings), helping with rush nametags when you didn't sign your name on a sheet to do it, etc etc. That goes on throughout your whole Greek career, not just pledgeship.

Yes, I agree completely. (This is one of the reasons I've always liked Tri Sigma's open motto - at least, I think it's their motto - "To receive much, you must give much").

I am blessed to come from a chapter where, for the most part, sisters were extremely giving of their time, talents, shoulders, etc.

I understand what you and Shiner are saying about bonding experiences. I feel similarly. When I think of "bonding" activities, I think of activities that I participated in with my friends. But, when I think of what makes that group of friends my SISTERS, it's our ritual.

I think I'm just having a hard time getting my feelings into words. Yes, you do a great deal of bonding with those in your chapter. But, your chapter is bound to each other through its ritual, not through hazing or a pledging process. I just feel like ritual is glossed over by some of the comments others have made. And, I guess that's what I feel like HQs would want to know about.

I think what you're trying to say is "ritual made us sisters, hearts made us friends." LOL

I don't know - I mean, you should be performing the ritual properly, but other than that I don't know how you can make people feel something more because of it. That just isn't how we (NIC & NPC) rush. You (for the most part) join the chapter, not the national, and the bond with the national comes later. Now if you asked the NPHC groups, I think they'd be much more agreeing of what you were talking about.

Well, I'm sure our HQ would like to hear about it, but hopefully they won't. Nobody really enjoys talking to them anyhow.

Shiner-Many of your postings of your thoughts/beliefs come very close to it........I have several family members and friends who served our country in several wars and placing "College Life" and "Close Combat" even in the same park is just wrong....many have less than pure positive thoughts about the experience......as others have said, when I am with my Brothers or other Greeks, we talk about what we did together rather than pledgeship. And if that matter comes up-talk about the activities of other GLO's during hell week(s).....and just how dumb they were..........

Shiner and Bows&Toes:
Some Nationals just might know and be aware of more that you really care to think or believe that they do...........and just may do more.........

Jon, well perhaps you should go back and READ. I said, I wasnt comparing pledgeship to military service, but that the theory of bonds being build under stressful situations still applies. Literacy. Try it.

I'm sure nationals knows more than we think. However, they don't seem to care.

Shiner-I have read just about ALL of your postings and still stand by what I said. And in what I believe. And as I have said in the past, we have very different beliefs and backgrounds.

And note what I said about Nationals-I did not say all. And we still do not know who yours is and never will for any number of reasons. All we know is that you enjoy the coverage that they provide and will provide come the day of reconging for your old chapter.....and some posters seem to not understand that others have interests in the actions of chapters. Yes Nationals PR people, their "bean counters" and thier RM's have an interest but so do the Schools people. Just because National 'does not know' or "is not told' does not mean that the school is in the dark.

And in this day and age, someone is going to do something. Either as a proactive move or reactive move.

And just because a Chapter may be a BHOC with a large active alumni group may not be of any help. May even hurt it as the Big, Importaint older Alumni Brothers most likly know, from the real business world that the days of Boys will be Boys, Greeks will be Greeks have changed. Yes, many will support a re-build, a Beta but in a different mold. As you may learn to understand in Law School.

And Shiner-I had no intention to say that you " disrespecting the military" in any way. Just that I truly believe that the College Experience/Life should have no connection at all to Military type "Close Combat" experience. Nothing like surviving Pearl Habor, The Death March, or just the Battle of Iron Bottom Sound. Or landing on Omaha Beach, then fighting though The Bulge and then being tasked to go land on the Home Islands of Japan. Or fighting in Nam, against people that you did not always see or understand and with one hand tied behind your back......

Shiner-you made that connection. That one must use the theory of bonds being build under stressful situations.

Every member of a GLO that I know, never had a negitive type of bonding, a overly stressful pledging or pledgeship. It was a mostly positive, joining of the Brotherhood.

And as I said before, we talk down on the groups that did otherwise.

And yes, my explainations may be just a bit extrem but Shiner sometimes yours are too.......and other times, you just lay out opinions as "facts" with nothing to back them up.......

Exactly.

We usually go out with the Alabama, Auburn, and UGA guys. It was weird, some guys that are apparently our brothers from like Minnesota or something invited us to a keg party. We respectfully declined and decided to go to the bars with the SEC guys.