Getting beat up by other seniors and people younger than you because you're on the swim team and in the high school band sounds like beating someone up, not hazing. I highly doubt any organization ever hazes the most senior members as a group, it sounds obvious that the guy was a nerd (a threat to our way of life) and got beat up by bigger or cooler kids. Show me an organization where younger members line up older members and requires constant hazing for the entire time you're a part of it, and I'll show you an organization that doesn't exist.

A little pain never hurt anyone.

What I don't get is the difference between a group of people joining an organization with full knowledge that they are going to get hazed, and a group of kinky leather wearing spanking freaks knowing (and probably paying) for getting beaten beyond the realm of a college fraternity.

Are the gimps in a different position because they're going to enjoy every minute of getting tied up and whacked around? If so that would make hazing a question of enjoyment which is a very fine line to walk. Along the same line of thought, if someone does something to me that I do not enjoy I am being hazed. I should bring this up with some professors the next time I have a test, or a coach the next time we run sprints at the end of practice for a laugh.

The way I see it, as long as all parties are free to walk out at any time, there shouldn't be any problem with a fraternity doing whatever they want to pledges within the realm of building brotherhood, and using that "within the realm of building brotherhood" is a personal moral thing. If people are allowed to do half of the messed up stuff that goes on behind closed doors in this country, I don't see any problem with a lineup.

And thats all I have to say about that.

Doesn't pain hurt by definition?

I'm saying in the broader context. A little bit of physical pain and mind games, especially if you signed up for it, isn't going to outweigh the potential good thats there.

I see no link between joining a GLO and what an adult may choose to do in the privacy of their bedrooms. I see where FH may have been trying to go but linking the two is a stretch at best.

Running laps in sports is with the goal of building your physical endurance, something important to success in a sport. Taking tests is a way measure of your academic performance, which is important to success in your studies.

Building unity is important in fraternities, but there are better ways to accomplish it than hazing or engaging in unhealthy traditions which may include demeaning new members or putting them in unsafe situations. That's the point--there are better ways to build unity than through hazing--so why not set a high expectation for your organization and pursue those avenues to buidling brother/sisterhood, rather than just do what is easy or convenient? Businesses don't use hazing...why should we?

If a tough pledge period isn't a test of endurance, I don't know what is.

You're using loaded words that imply moral judgement. "Unhealthy," "better," "high expectations," "convenient." Who are you to tell me what is better for me, and visa versa. And about hazing being convenient? No chance...

Thats like comparing apples and oranges. My dog doesn't haze, neither does the Spanish monarchy, or a warm slice of cheddar cheese.

Businesses pay salaries, have set work hours (9-5 Monday to Friday), and are established to make a profit, not for the betterment of its employees or as any sort of a social or service entity. Its PC to think that businesses are big trust fall hugfests, but they're established for profit, and completely different.


All I'm saying is that as a culture of gratification, we tend to jump on top of things we may not understand or seek to understand outside of an immediate inflamatory emotional response. I couldn't care what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own home, or in the privacy of their fraternity or sorority, because its none of my business whether I agree with it or not.

FH--

1. The point with the sports analogy was that physical endurance is important in sports and that is why a coach would have an athlete run--not to haze them.

2. If you believe my words imply judgment then so be it. When I was using the word "better" it was meant in the context of things that work better to establish stronger bonds than taking the "easier" way of hazing or doing activities which are not positive in nature (unhealthy traditions, as I call them.)

3. College and universities are in the business of preparing young people for the workforce. I believe that fraternities and sororities, as guests on campuses, have an opportunity to do the same in order to remain pertinent in the lives of students beyond just the social and fun. Businesses--yes they do put profit as their main focus, but they do also care about having happy employees because that affects the bottom line. And they do care about servicing their local community, because that, affects the quality of life for their employees, as well as creates a positive image of the company. (I work in fundraising for a university, and most of the large donations come from corporate friends who want to impact education and help the community.) The point is....if you went to work every day and got yelled at, forced to line up, had to memorize a ton of information or eat weird things.....you probably wouldn't feel great about the company and you would leave.

Its not enough to recruit members, they have to want to stay. And hazing is one of the reasons good, strong members, don't stay.

In my opinion, to be a pledge means you should be hazed on one level or another. Now the degree to which the hazing goes is up to the chapter of your fraternity. I was hazed (whether I knew it was going on or not at the time) and it definitely brought my pledge class together. Sure some of the incidents had no meaning what so ever, but most of them did.

Your whole argument is based on the fact that you think "hazing" implies morally degrading, demeaning, and harmful situations. Why you feel you can make generalizations about what different chapters consider hazing is beyond me. I was hazed pretty damn hard....and I can honestly say it was never dangerous, degrading, or painful. I became strong mentally, extremely close with my class, and came out of it very knowledgeable about my fraternity and what it meant to be in it.

Because hazing, by definition, is either morally degrading, demeaning or harmful. I have never seen a hazing definition that didn't include those words.

ETA: link to a bunch of hazing definitions

I guess one person's degrading is another person's bonding experience. I do not believe my whole argument as presented throughout this thread says that hazing is always dangerous or degrading--in fact, I do not believe that at all (read my post on unhealthy traditions.) The center of my argument is that there are ways to accomplish unity without hazing, and I find many of those activities will create stronger bonds and build stronger membership in our organizations.

Second to that, because we have rules that forbid certain activities and call them hazing, we should not engage in those activities. My thoughts on this are two fold--some of those activities are not positive in nature and, second, if the activities are uncovered and discovered, Greek letter organizations as a whole will get a bad name for the actions of a few. As I have said before, if you do not like the rules, then you should work to change them, not simply decide to ignore.

And the reason I think I can make generalizations is because I have studied this topic extensively in my own organization, in my master's coursework, including a legal issues in higher education class this semester, and I, myself, have experienced the results of hazing.

Scavenger hunts are morally degrading?

Better tell my law school because we had one such event as part of an assignment in my legal research & writing class.

I think that in a lot of cases, you might be right, but I think your net is being cast a tad too wide.

I have posted here numerous times that scavenger hunts in and of themselves would have been fine if the following types of things hadn't started to happen:

Highly degrading/illegal items on the list of what to collect (used condoms, parking tickets, street signs, "mushroom prints" in peanut butter)

"Punishments" for not obtaining the items (drinking a shot for each item not obtained, etc).

High risk behavior when racing to get the items (ie. running across streets without looking, driving recklessly to beat the team just ahead of you, etc).

They are a high risk activity for anybody, not just new members and our alumnae club had to stop doing their annual road rally because of liability, not because of hazing. As far as the hazing go, it's the first two points that are the problem.

The reason scavenger hunts are "wrong" is because FIPG, the organization that directs most national organizations in terms of insurance and liability, forbids them due to liability. And, what I have been told, this came about because people were taking this fun activity to the extreme (sending people long distance or stealing things) and people were getting hurt or arrested.

<nod nod> Exactly. We can't do them even if everybody is initiated. We certainly can't do them with just new members.

Haha, I almost got arrested on mine!

However, it was one of the best times I had with my pledge brothers during pledging.

me and another guy had to drive to new orleans from Austin at 3 in the morning for our last item. I will never forget it. one of the best times I have had.

What was your last item?

Scavenger hunts are tricky in the fact that it is possible to hold one that isn't morally degrading, and involves no alcohol. However, they tend to take quite a bit of time and a lot of distance to be covered. Once you start on one, you get the feeling that you have to finish it and keep going on and on just to get to the finish.

I think you're confusing what is "moral" and what is a liability risk. I don't think that they are one in the same.

You could possibly argue that it's immoral to place your organization in financial jeapordy so that you or your chapter can operate outside of the rules. I just don't see that argument working with 18-21 year old kids though.

had to go to a restaurant and bring back food

You're right. The point is that FIPG or whomever considers them a liability risk and so a chapter probably would not be covered in the case of an accident like those described above.

In terms of "stealing" items, I think you have pointed out in the past that illegal acts are never covered.

It's likely another case where a seemingly harmless activity has been taken to extremes sometime(s) in the past and the reaction has been to defensively ban everything.

I agree, sadly. I think that until you go to a Convention or Leadership Conference type activity with many chapters present, or become alum and get involved with members from other chapters, you don't really comprehend the organization as a whole. You tend to think about your chapter and it's point of view, but you don't see the big picture. That your actions could be responsible for the loss of your entire organization, affecting tens of thousands of members permanently is an idea that's lost. The other problem with the argument for that age group is the "It won't happen to me" mentality that persists until the mid-twenties.

Driving 3 hours in the middle of the night to get food from a particular restaurant could be a lot of fun, unless the driver gets drowsy and crashes the car, killing everybody in it. Every Spring Break we hear about at least one car of college students getting into a fatal accident while driving home after a week of no sleep and tons of partying. But, developmentally, at that age, there remains the thought "It won't happen to me". One of the biggest frustrations is trying to figure out how to get past that and make them see "It could".

Interestingly, the last time I did the Alpha Gam program "Get Real: Thinking About Drinking" at a chapter, I got feedback I didn't expect. The program focuses on drinking attitudes rather than a lot of facts and figures. The developers figure that college students are bombarded with facts about alcohol, so this program consists of interactive activities designed to challenge the way members think about drinking instead. Some of the evaluation cards afterward said that there should have been more "scare stories" about people who died or were injured as a result of drinking. That really surprised me because I don't think those kinds of stories work, because of the "it won't happen to me" factor.

Also, for anybody who thinks their GLO isn't a business, I urge you to stay involved as an alumnus, especially as you climb up the "ladder" and see what you think then.

AGDee, I see what you are saying, and basically, we are in agreement. However, I think from a national perspective, maybe the rules are too strict. I can see how the type of scavenger hunt you're talking about could be dangerous. However, a scavenger hunt limited to for example, a 1 square mile area? There's very minimal risk involved there. Probably a lot less risk than participating in some intramural sports.

To say that scavenger hunts are "always" immoral because of the risk you're unfairly placing on your brothers and sisters in other chapters is again painting with too broad a brush.

I think that's a big frustration that many undergrads have with their respective national entities. There is generally a lot of expectation as far as these guys/gals acting like adults, but there is very little trust.

I agree that our organizations are businesses, but let's not forget that we're in the business of brotherhood and sisterhood. Let's not allow the business aspect to frustrate what our purpose was in the first place.

Of course there have been lots of scavenger hunts which were run well and ended up being positive activities. Unfortunately, as DA mentioned, it's easier to say "no scavenger hunts" and, when reading a report, spot the word "Scavenger hunt" than it is to have each chapter send in every detail of such an activity and go over them with a fine tooth comb. Since becoming an Area Coordinator for Alpha Gam, I am so inundated with reports that it's unreal. I filled a four drawer file cabinet by early March and the reports are still coming in. I'm just a volunteer, a single mom, a full time employee. It's easiser to scan reports for key words than to read every detail of every activity that 24 chapters are doing!

And, one could argue, why are scavenger hunts so needed? Is it simply the temptation of the forbidden fruit? There are zillions of team building activities that our insurance companies are ok with.

I'm not the one who used the word immoral :)

I will admit, I see things very differently now, as a long time alumna and volunteer, than I did when I was a collegian. I think everybody, with age, looks back on some things they did when they younger (whether in a GLO or not) and think "I'm lucky I survived that". I feel it most as a parent, when I'm trying to keep my kids from doing something stupid or dangerous.

We hear the most about the chapters who screw up and the reality is, most chapters and most GLO members are really fantastic.

Isn't that the truth.

Even as an adult, I didn't think much about chapter liability until I became an alumni volunteer.

The scavenger hunt thing is pretty much like all hazing rules to me -- badly defined and totally over-reactive because somebody has taken things too far and lost control, resulting in injury or "criminal" behavior.

Granted being an Alum of a Greek Organization is a relative statement, being an Advisor brings the real truth as D A said along with AGDee.

Suddenly the Real Truth comes to the Fore.

Reports of Hazing are daily and that is the sad truth.

When We look at costs, as the more Mature Members as Alums, it does put a whole different light on the problem.

Greeks as far as Insurance is concerned are done as a Total. If one does it, ergo, they all do it and it is figured as such.:rolleyes: No Black and White in this situation.

I havent read this whole thread but just to address the title...

I realize why GLOs & schools have to renounce "hazing", its a liability thing. But hazing is a double-edged sword, without it, greek chapters go downhill...the quality of guy in a fraternity that doesnt haze compared to one that does is very evident. If you didnt have to work your ass off to EARN those letters, you will never respect it as you should, and you will most likely be a slapdick active that doesnt do anything. There is a reason the millitary trains to "break you down" then build you up, its the same concept.

By hazing I am NOT talking about making pledges drink, or any homosexual crap, not making them eat nasty stuff...etc. im talking good ole' fashioned military style line-ups, scavenger hunts, and other things that the pledge class has to work together to overcome some type of obstacle. THATS what builds unity.

Agree.

What builds unity is having respect for one another--not line ups and things of that nature.

I think that it's interesting that some of the hardest hazing military-line up style is in the south, where the strongest chapters are most certainly always are. Coincidence? Hell no.

This would greatly depend on your definition of a "strong chapter". I wouldn't consider any chapter that is engaging in high risk behavior as defined by our insurance companies as "strong".

I'm not sure why anyone would think that the "strongest" chapters are in the South -- unless, of course, they belong to a Southern chapter and believe their own public relations.

There are great chapters all over the country.

With all due respect, I read in another thread that you "got your pin" a month ago. It's interesting to me that someone who is reasonably new to the system knows so much more about the Greek System than others who have been around for a number of years and have been advisors and division or national officers.

Additionally, there is a huge difference between military hazing and fraternity hazing, including the alleged "need" for either. To make it real simple, if you don't learn whatever your chapter wants you to know, you probably won't die. (you'll note I don't say GLO, because they ALL have policies against hazing)

who gives a flying s**t what an insurance company thinks about a chapter.

"Things of that nature" are what leads many people to have that respect. Why do you think that everything we mention that we do is dangerous or detrimental or something negative. You and AGDee have a completely one-sided approach to this stuff and its rather ridiculous.

I base my claims that the strongest chapters are in the South because I have traveled to many differenct campuses across the country and have been to leadership schools for SAE in which representatives from all over the country come.....and I have listened to and heard exactly what people from the North and elsewhere think about us, and chapters from schools like Alabama, UGA, Ole Miss, etc. To be completely honest they were all pretty in awe.

Don't believe the hype. I am going to guess that many are in 'awe' not because they think the chapter is strong, but because of things like you have a house, your school has a name they know, you may have a larger membership. It probably has little to do with the quality of your membership, and even if it did, how would they know unless they had visited your chapter specifically?

In my own group I see this phenomenon all the time--it almost seems as if women from chapters with houses have an aura about them, either real or created. I will say that in my experience they are not always the strongest chapters.

Macallen25--once again, I have not said anything about hazing always being a dangerous activity. I have repeatedly said, usually after you post accusing me accordingly, that I do not believe that hazing is always dangerous. I believe that there are more positive ways to accomplish unity and bonding than through hazing. For every activity that you offer, I could probably come up with a different, legal, or more acceptable way to accomplish the same goal. That is my central point--has been throughout this thread. I, too, am a long-time international volunteer and that colors my perspective. I believe my beliefs are consistent with what officers in many national organizations would believe. Like it or not, there are rules that prohibit hazing, including the activities that you have subscribed to in your posts. I think many of us post because we would hate to see your chapter get in trouble, lose the charter, or simply contribute to a poor reputation for all GLOs and we want to encourage younger members to think about the consequences, not just the dangers.

Some guy dies from overexertion due to a previously unknown medical problem with his heart, and you will care, your parents will care, your international organization will care, because you'll all be financially ruined.

You are arguing quality?

The richest houses, with the most social activities, with the strongest reputation of being the top tier have always been in the south. I could name off the top houses in the nation, all in the south.

Phi Gam at UT-Austin, KA at Bama, The Fabulous Xi Chapter of Kappa Sig at Arkansas or LSU, SAE at Auburn, Sigma Chi at LSU and Arkansas (maybe.), Pike at.... well I guess Florida State if they are actually good anywhere, it is the biggest fraternity house in the nation. Beta's better than normal at Florida. Apparently they're better than average at Baylor too. I could probably go on and on.

You're equating quality with money?

I would think The activity would have to be taken into account.