Either way it just sucks all around. I've often wondered what the reaction would be if I went missing...I'm not white and I wonder if anyone would care outside of my friends and family. I mean, I could see my dad and my boss having a cry-fest on Nancy Grace, but I doubt it would even get to that point.

Out of curiosity, I googled both Natalle & JoBenet. Natalee was born in 1986, and probably would have graduated from college this past year. JonBenet was born in 1990, and would possibly be in college by now. It's so strange how the mind works, itsn't it?

Here is an update on the Ramsey family, if anyone is interested. I had NO CLUE the father ran for office in 2004.

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article...e-clu/19654258

My daughter was born in 1986 and graduated from college in 2008. My son was born in late 1989, did 2 years of kindergarten and his buddies are juniors in college while the kids from the first kindergarten class are seniors.

DaffyKD

Natalee graduated high school in May 2005, and would have graduated last May if she had finished in 4 years...probably with good grades, honors, Greek, lots of friends, etc. She was really nice and really smart. It's a huge waste.

Or she could've gotten pregnant her first semester of college, flunked out, never received a sorority bid, and been considered a social outcast. Who knows and it happens to "the best of them." It's a huge waste because a life was taken, not because she was "really nice and really smart."

I really feel sorry for what happened to this young lady but I really find people's reactions to be interesting. If she had not been a "really nice and really smart" white girl who people thought was pretty, mainstream America wouldn't care so much. They certainly wouldn't be talking about it so much almost 6 years later. Her family would've been struggling to get law enforcement attention, media attention, let alone a Lifetime movie.

I am saying this as someone with experience in victimology. I am responding to what Alumiyum typed and not Alumiyum's tone or what she intended. ;)

I graduated high school with Natalee. I didn't know her well, but obviously I am interested in following this case because I remember her. She was a sweet girl, and not everyone is so good natured and friendly in high school. I can say my personal interest/connection is not related to how she looked, what color she was, or what her grades were. If she had been obnoxious, mean, etc. maybe I wouldn't be as sympathetic or still care after almost 6 years, I don't know. If I hadn't known her at all, I probably wouldn't still follow the case. But I did, and it does matter to me that she gets remembered as being a nice person, simply because she was.

To me, it is a waste that Joran is alive and well, even if he is in jail, and she is not. Especially considering that he not only ruined Natalee's and Stephany Flores's family, but his own. I feel really sorry for his mother and brother.

ETA: I'm sure the fact that she was cute, blond, white, smart, nice, etc. helped her get the media coverage she did. We see that same pattern in the news all the time. The fact that she disappeared in a tropical location on a trip to celebrate high school graduation after achieving above a 4.0 makes a sellable story. But her family did make enormous efforts to make sure she wasn't forgotten before the story blew up.

Yes.

For every one person who went to school with her and kinda knew her, there are 20 people who say the same thing that you said but didn't know her.

And like you said the sellable story doesn't hurt.

OT, but is graduating with above a 4.0 that big a deal, especially when so many districts have weighted almost every single class?

Many families who have had children go missing make enormous efforts to make sure the missing child isn't forgotten. It's just much easier to stay in the spotlight when you're affluent and white.

Sorry, I don't see why that effects the reasoning I have for caring. She was uncommonly nice and pretty selfless for a teenager. (Not that I went to high school with a bunch of assholes, but they were generally about as self centered as I was, and I simply remember that she was nicer to others than the majority of us were). Of course, I also knew and know some of the people who were most effected by all of this (her friends, not her family) and I can't imagine how it was to watch the news for information and see the things that they did on CNN, Nancy Grace, etc. Which is another reason I still follow the case.

There's nothing wrong with following a story because you identify with the family, are sympathetic to the victim, etc. A lot of people follow the case because she reminds them of their own daughter, or they were in a similar situation and made it out alive, or just because she seems like someone they could be friends with, things like that. It's why the story is sellable, but it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve the sympathy (or that her family/friends don't).

It seems rather instructive that this thread somehow turned to JonBenet Ramsey - a case that couldn't be any less related, on a purely factual basis.

It is at MBHS, and it means she loaded her schedule with APs. It's a public school, but it IS a difficult school. I know she was in the NHS and the math honor society, and a couple of others. Basically, yes, she was a very hard worker, and her academic achievements were something to be proud of.

I've heard this many times over the years, and my response is, this isn't a fair world, and yes being white and pretty helped her stay in the news. It's naive to think it didn't. But that doesn't mean she didn't deserve the attention/sympathy/work her family did to find her.

PS-The movie is on Lifetime.

No, she isn't. I believe she has a brother, and I'm not sure if her father remarried and had other children after her parents divorced.

I remember reading somewhere that her mom and JonBenet's dad were dating. Not sure how true that is, though.

I don't know what your post has to do with mine. You think I am typing specifically to and about you. I am talking about victimology and simply used your post as a foundation.

Did anyone say she doesn't deserve the sympathy? Do you know what victimology is?

She has a brother Matt, IIRC, he's 3 grades behind her, so I guess three years. Her father has young daughters.

I read that a long time ago, but I don't think it's true anymore. I'm pretty sure one of them confirmed they were seeing each other for a while though.

ETA: I forgot her step dad (now divorced) has two children. One is a girl and is much older, and the boy was I think two years ahead of our grade.

:rolleyes:. Heaven forbid I thought that from your response in which you quoted my post. Yes, I understand what victimology is. Obviously, that is not the objective lens through which I see this story.

You now understand that you don't have to keep explaining how you know her and why you feel a certain way about the topic. What you said about Holloway isn't exclusive to you, hence my initial post in which I used your post as a foundation for a general statement on people's reactions.

You don't see this story through an objective lens.

You do realize that you don't have the final say on what people post, yes?

Correct. It is obvious that I do not, and therefore am not looking at this in connection to victimology.

I'm quite familiar with the concept of weighted GPAs and what you have to do to get them, LOL. I went to an extremely competitive public HS where it was completely possible to get a 5.0, so if you had a 4.1 or even a 4.5, it was no big thing. I graduated with a 4.5 and I probably was in the top 10% of the class, not in the top 1% or even 3%. We didn't have grade inflation, everyone took AP and IB classes, even as freshmen.

Everyone who goes missing deserves the attention/sympathy/work their families and communities do to find them.

Great. Good for you and your high school. As I said, we went to a competitive high school, and she worked hard. She absolutely earned the right to be proud of her achievements. It's still weird to me that people so want to downplay that.

Right.

No one wants to downplay it. You're the one who brought up AP classes and how your high school was oh-so-competitive. You're not the only one who went to a good high school.

Just shut the fuck up. You're sounding like an idiot. I hope they resolve this case today so you'll be quiet.

Your repeating that it's so easy to get these grades made it seem like you think it's no big deal. Also, the fact that you asked if it was "that big a deal?"

Sorry for misinterpreting that, though I do regret to inform you that you DON'T have the say on who has to "shut the fuck up". I would be ecstatic if you, for instance, would "just shut the fuck up", but alas, this is a messageboard, and that's not the way it works. :D

WAAAAAHMBULANCE.

Ok, I'm playing one round.

Really? Your last post was "wahhh shut the fuck up". Really?:D:D:D

Wtf happened to this thread?

Yes, really. Shut the fuck up.

Go boil your head.:D

Look, if you want to assume that you need to explain your association with Holloway and how you feel about Holloway, have at it. Just don't assume that my posts are talking about you.

Then were you being sarcastic when you said that you are looking at this through an objective lens?

I do not assume that, you assume that. I simply respond to the particular post I quote. I agree to not assume, if you do the same. :)

I said this, "Obviously, that is not the objective lens through which I see this story." which is meant to refer to victimology as an "objective lens". I see how you could have misread it because of how it is worded. I do not see the case objectively at all, which is pretty obvious, I think.

LOL. Back to victimology, since this isn't just about why one person feels as she/he does:

There are people who feel as though they can relate to the Holloway case. What's embedded in that is the question of which victims receive the most response based on how people can relate to them. Mainstream society is most likely to relate to victims who look like them (or fit some ideal), seemingly live like them, and people who from all accounts were perceivably "pure" prior to being victimized.

That's why saying things like "she'd be getting good grades in college" and "she was so nice" receives a certain reaction from people. Let's say she wasn't a good student and wasn't considered nice and wholesome. Is that less of a loss?


Yeah, I re-read that part of your post and see what you meant. It wasn't poorly worded. I can admit when I misinterpreted something.

It's not less of a loss, but she probably wouldn't get the same attention. That's just reality. What sells is what gets attention on shows like Nancy Grace and Greta I-can't-remember-her-last-name. I doubt you'll find anyone who would think it's less of a loss when you're talking about a human life, especially an innocent victim of a crime. But it doesn't sell as well.

Personally, I say those things because I believe them. On tv they say those things because it helps build the sellable profile.

A lot of people think that one life is less of a loss than another. That's why some stories are more sellable than others. Nancy Grace, et al only go based on what the viewers want to hear about.

What it takes is seeing patterns in what people say and looking at what is embedded in what people say (i.e. "she was so pretty" or "she would've been something"). You can not go by the niceties in what people literally say because most people want to see themselves as nice people who would never think and say that some lives are more valuable than others.

I have to say, I haven't ever heard someone say that she would be less of a loss to the world and her loved ones if she hadn't made good grades or been pretty. That includes people that are genuinely angry that her case has gotten so much attention over the years. I do not assume that because someone comments that she was pretty or smart that they don't give a shit about kids who aren't pretty or smart.

The majority of the world isn't composed of people who are blond and attractive and had great grades in high school and were well liked by peers. Do they really believe that people who are attractive and smart are more valuable than those that aren't?

Once again, this isn't about you. ;) This is a general discussion of the trends and patterns that are observed in victimology and have been applied to cases such as Holloway's.

Generally speaking, yes.

Correct, my post was not about me, it was about having never heard someone express that they think one person is more valuable than another. I am responding to your posts, and right now there is no "general discussion of the trends and patterns that are observed in victimology and have been applied to cases such as Holloway's". There are only your posts on the topic, and the responses to those posts. If you think they aren't applicable to the discussion you want to have, you can always just not respond to them.

I have a hard time believing the majority of people, average people, truly believe those that achieve a more stereotypical success in life are more valuable as human beings. That's basically saying they think these people are more valuable than they themselves are. I think people in general are too self absorbed to truly believe that.

You're demonstrably wrong here.

Of course people (in general) believe that successful people are better, more valuable, etc. Just because we don't often put a specific valuation on those people doesn't mean it isn't a value issue (although we do - see: life insurance for literal value, and eBay sales of memorabilia for another form of value).

For other examples, look at sales of books by individuals who people view as successful, deference to "figurehead" success stories (see: Warren Buffett), celebrity weddings and funerals, and proven increased pay and opportunities for attractive people.

People are self-absorbed to the point of wanting to associate themselves with these people who they view as having increased value.

I am talking about worth as a person, not name recognition, monetary value, or fame. Worth as a human being.

If you don't feel those two things are inextricably tied together, you're living on a fantasy planet of your own creation.

Easy tiger. No need to be rude. I do not feel they are necessarily tied together. I do not think that because someone is famous, they are more valuable than I am as a human being. They are more attractive, wealthy, and famous, but that doesn't make them a better person than I (or anyone else). I also do not believe I am the only person on the planet that thinks this way.