Because I'm nosy, I was trying to figure out which school was her undercover school throughout the entire book.

Clues she drops, though she admits some, maybe most, are fake:

- The school is in the South, probably Texas
- 18 sororities
- The sororities have about 120-160 sisters, or in that general range
- They have houses
- The houses are large and hold a lot of sisters -- Beta Pi is described as sleeping almost 90 girls
- They have deferred rush -- to me this is the most important clue as it's out of the ordinary, especially for Southern schools, and most likely one that was NOT changed
- They have Homecoming, which they also refer to as "Greek Week," and they do serenading/courting to decide who Homecoming picks are
- The school and the Greek system in particular seem very status/wealth-oriented


Granted I don't know much about Southern Methodist University, but given what's above, I think SMU is the most likely pick. It's the only major Texas school with deferred rush; it's the only major Southern school that I can think of with deferred rush. The other factors don't match exactly (SMU doesn't have 18 NPC sororities, for example) but they are things that could be easily changed. Plus she seems to know quite a bit about SMU from other quotes in the book.

The only thing that doesn't make sense about that to me is why Sabrina, whose parents theoretically pull in $25,000 a year, would end up at a school that's been referred to as "Southern Millionaires University," but I suppose that's what scholarships are for.

Anybody else have any other suggestions or know more about SMU that could prove or disprove this guess?

ETA: After doing some more research, Vanderbilt and UVA are also possibilities.


If it IS indeed SMU, I've even got some guesses as to which sororities were infiltrated, but I'm going to keep those to myself. ;)

Okay, let me ask you this (those who have read the book). Did she go undercover as a member of the GLOs? What I'm wondering is was she allowed in the ceremonies, such as initiation? I'm just a little confused....

While I haven't read the book. I don't see how she could through severak initations at one school. Someone would have caught on.

Did she go undercover at other schools?

Perhaps the people she shadowed told her about the ceremonies?

I was thinking about that as I read the thread and read the MSN article-- maybe she was a "new member"? I havent read the book so I dont know, but if she was at Bid Day and at ritual, it would be logical to think that she was "pledging."

or maybe she said she was from a chapter at another school, transferred universities, and these chapters didnt check up on her?

were all the chapters she investigated from one school?

My thing is, if she said she was from another chapter...they could have just let her into initiation or any ceremony without knowing any better!

I guess I need to break down and get the stupid book. I tried to check it out at the library ('cause I don't want this chick to have a penny of my $$$), but the library doesn't have it yet.

She didn't reveal how she was able to go "undercover," but my guess is that these girls didn't pretend she was a member -- they just brought her to events like she was one of their buddies. She doesn't mention being at ritual (the ritual details she provides were what she heard from initiated members of many groups, not just the two covered in her book). The fact that she followed two groups around makes it unlikely that she was pretended to be a pledge or transfer member.

Or maybe she pulled it all out of her nether regions.

Supposedly she interviewed "hundreds" of sisters from across the country on a variety of topics which probably included ritual and secrets. The "shadowed" girls were all from the same school.

S and S, I looked at the houses at UVA and they don't look very big so I don't know about that prospect. I agree that the part about deferred is probably not changed because she wouldn't understand that it could be a distinguishing feature.

Edited because navane is hella good at statistics and I am not. :D

The problem is that no Southern school with deferred rush really has a big house. UVA's are really small, but even SMU and Vandy don't seem to house more than 30-50 at the most. The only schools that I can think of with houses big enough to house 90 are definitely not Southern or don't have deferred rush (Oklahoma, Mizzou, Indiana, LSU, Kansas, etc.). So the housing thing is throwing me for a bit of a loop.

I still think it's SMU though. ;)


On another note, I think one of the things that hurts her credibility in this book is that, by not being Greek and doing all the research in a year's time, she doesn't really understand how common these things she's reporting on are. Like I said, I thought she handled some topics fairly well -- but when she tries to make it sound like "Naked Parties" are as common as intra-sorority squabbling and drama, the credibility flies out the window.

The biggest problem with her undercover work, is she makes soo much of it up, it's hard as a Greek to know when she stops. Names and Organizations have been changed. Is it too much of a stretch to think that she changed dates? Maybe when rush occurs? The numbers the houses hold? I mean, i know she wanted to protect her "sources" but there is so much deception that it's hard to know what to believe, when.

I really think she just 'pal'ed around with teh girls whenever possible, when times like rush meetings or rush convos come up, i really think that she's going word-of-mouth from her sources. And then, once again, you have the embellishment issue. The girls may have told her one or two things, but she's already lying so much i couldn't put it past her to "flesh" out the rest of the convos herself.

S&S, i could see it being SMU, except for like, what you mentioned about the price, Greeks run SMU pretty much(or so i've been told) and that she says its a State university, and SMU is private.


Kitso
KS 361

Come ON people...apparently, a lot of her "research" was through IMs & emails!

If she's used the internet as the basis for her facts, then PLEASE, do not take this book seriously!!!!!

I think thats become acceptable for interviewing . .. much as phone conversation or a letter would be.

There's a BIG difference in types of email, though. If any of you emailed me at work, my real name would show up. You could confirm with my work that I am that person. Same as if you had an address like "James@kappasigma.org."

However, anyone can have an address like "jennyalphasigmaalpha@hotmail.com". Hotmail obviously doesn't give a crap whether you are really what you use in your name. Same with IM.

maybe she's lying about that too. who knows what she made up and what was real.

Except for the numbers and the Southern part, this sounds just like my school. I went to a large Mid-Atlantic state school. It's not in my local library yet, but I'm very curious now.

probably.

eh, i'm not going to lie, i was entertained reading it. Maybe she's got a future as a fiction writer. Gotta mail my copy to my sister tomorrow to get her opinion. She's the one i go to about sorority questions, seeing as how i was never in one.

Kitso
KS 361

I maintain it's Indiana, and I'll explain why later.

You haven't even read the book, jer.

Opportunity for Education vs. Condemnation?
 

Don't you all have anything better to do with your time then tear apart a book looking to publically "expose" the school [and thus the women involved] ?

By no means was there no effort to highlight positive aspects of Greek Life.

Seems to me that time might be better spent collaborating together to communicate toward renegade chapters/orgs that actually practice the sort of antics which fill up the GreekChat Risk Mgmt forum than collaborating to write letters to an author telling her how much you think she sucks.

Re: Opportunity for Education vs. Condemnation?
 

Richard, please try again. We live in America, which is a nice country where we can criticize books. When I have the choice between writing another paper on Mark's apocolyptic eschatology or whether Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Klan or a LaGrangian funtion, or coming on GC and laughing at somebody, what do you think I am going to do?

Bad chapters KNOW that they are bad, particularily in the NPC. We get reminded of what a bad chapter is and does at least once a week, if not more. THEY DO NO CARE. I wish you would understand that. It takes at least 8 years to see a chapter completely turned around, and no chapter is going to come on GC and say "OH! A Gamma Phi and a Tri Delt from Wisconsin think hazing is bad, so we should stop 108 years of chapter tradition." It's just not that easy.

Re: Opportunity for Education vs. Condemnation?
 

People are going to write hate mail, and won't change the fact that the book has been published, and it won't change the author's opinion.

I think we should do exactly what we've been doing. Continue to work with NPC on risk management programming and provide this programming to all NPC members. There are going to be a few chapters that carry things to extremes. They will be exposed and they will be closed down. But meanwhile, NPC chapters have advisory boards in place to watch out for the women, they have leadership training and risk management education. If the women choose to ignore these teachings and go the other way, they will not be a successful chapter -- or a chapter at all. Group mentality (in any peer group) has a strange effect on people, and it takes someone with a very strong will and maturity to put her foot down and do the right thing.

I'm going to read the book eventually. I highly doubt that this book will be the end of the Greek System.

My mom was very unsure of me joining a sorority and if this book had come out the spring before my freshman year I wouldn't be greek. She has read it already and calls me daily asking if "such and such" happens. I just wish that there was a positive account to counteract this but in America it wouldn't sell! People don't like exclusive organizations such as greek organizations and this just gives them an excuse to bash us!

I think that Ms. Robbins needs to hear how upset the greek community is over this book. The greek community is powerful if we all band together and if she realizes how upset the book has made us she might do a positive look on greek life or at least change some of the stories in future editions.

I really don't think she would change anything. Senationalism sells, and it is what gets her a paycheck. The best way to combat this book is to look within your own chapters, reward yourselves for what you're doing right, and work with your local alumnae officers/directors to eliminate activities that do not promote a healthy chapter. You will also be successful by promoting a positive image of Greek Life to Greeks and non-Greeks alike. These kinds of books and movies will continue to be made because there are chapters that take it to extremes. Don't be one of them, and don't cover for those chapters. You're better than that, and you're above being insulted by yellow journalism.

Video

This woman has to be one of the stupidest I've ever watched. LOL At least she's not talking about fraternities.

-Rudey

I watched the video, and I've also read the book, and I don't think she comes off as stupid at all. Sensationalist, yes...she's trying to move copies. And she's clearly more a novelist and less a journalist than she believes herself to be. But she's not dumb and a number (not all) of her critical comments are quite justified and valid in my experience.

Re: Opportunity for Education vs. Condemnation?
 

It seems some people do, like writing the author no matter if it will change things or not.

Honestly, I feel the time is spent well because people like Robbins allow the stereotypes of Greek Life to continue to live on. And she didn't help any by publishing a book full of "facts" and "true stories."

Like it was previously stated, she decided to publish a book and that book is open to criticism.

People that aren't part of the "greek world" have a hard time understand how hard it is for people to battle the stereotypes...and trust me, there are many efforts to clean up chapter images and "bad chapters," these things aren't simply ignored.

You're serious? Aside from the blank look in her eyes, the depth of her material is ridiculous. Sororities are funny...like we talked about breasts pretty much captured it for me.

-Rudey

I also watched the video. Is she stupid intellectually? No. Is she still completely clueless about Greek life and sororities even though she spent a year in one? Yes. And unless you have actually lived that life you can't really understand it. I believe she is just unwilling to look beyond into the deeper. She found what she wanted to on the surface and ran with it.

I'd be interested to find out more about her involvement with Scroll and Key. One would think that being involved in a secret society in college would help her understand more about what sororities (or sorarities as she said) are truly founded on, but whatever.

Hrm...ok, math was never my strong suit; so, someone please help me out on this.

"Thousands" is plural, meaning 2,000+. If she interviewed 2,000+ women, wouldn't some of us know about it?? I mean, I doubt she interviewed 1-2 women at each chapter of a sorority at each university in the US. It just seems that, statistically, a couple of women here at GC should have been approached by her, or know of sisters in their chapter who had been approached for an interview.

Furthermore, I find it hard to believe that she interviewed "thousands" of sorority members and yet no alarms were raised by national HQs? That is, ALL 2,000+ participants gave interviews without telling their chapter presidents or anything like that?

Can someone confirm that she actually said she interviewed "thousands"?

I'm also confused about this "research" she claims to have done. Generally, someone who conducts qualitative research does NOT conduct personal interviews with THOUSANDS of participants. :eek: In general, qualitative samples tend to be smaller and more detail-oriented. For example, my own master's thesis research involved personally interviewing 30 university administrators and then looking for patterns among what was said via the tape recorded sessions and my field notes.

On the other hand, if she gave out surveys to thousands of people, translated the answers into numbers and crunched them on a computer using statistics software...then that would make more sense and her study would be quantitative in nature. Since it sounds like she does not present her statistics, or refer to them in such a way that shows she did some, then this work is not likely to be quantitative research.

So which is it? How could a "researcher" possibly interview thousands of women in such a short period of time? Is she lying? Has she actually interviewed that many but has done so over a decade (and not one year)? Did she log in to GC, read thousands of posts and then decide to call them "interviews"?

So which is it? Is she a sociologist? A researcher? A journalist? Was this a research study? Or was it "just" meant to be a book?

Researchers normally intend to publish their work in a professional research journal in order to present new information for the benefit of the community. In other words, if this was a proper study, she could have submitted it to the NASPA Journal which is published by the National Association for Student Personnel Administrators in order to encourage university administrators to take a more active role in assisting with the problem areas of Greek Life.

But, no, this lady wrote a book for sale on the mass market. So that, combined with the fact that her research methods sound awfully sketchy, makes me uncomfortable. She better not be passing this off as "research".

.....Kelly :)

I stand erected, LOL. The email I have says she interviewed "hundreds" but I distinctly recall the word thousand somewhere. I'm going back in this thread and changing what I said since someone was smart enough to question. :)

Didn't you know...being in the same room/house/campus/town/state counts as an interview!

So I watched her video.

But now I wonder about the today show.

I think the Today show should have a balanced approach, or they would if they too were real journalists.
The today show should have interviewed a sorority member with a positive experience...even if it was a member of her staff.

And rush consultants...I would like to know where you would find one of those.

Maybe a google search is in order.

I watched the video, too. And while some of the information she discussed was incorrect (southern mothers forcing their child to attend college freshman year in the cold wintry north just to pledge THE sorority, and then coming back to the deep south to get instant acceptance into THE sorority's deep south chapter), I felt like she was trying really hard not to bash the Greek system. I know 90% of you will disagree with me. I have not read the book yet, and I don't like the fact that she uses so many anonymous sources b/c it hurts her credibility, but I DO believe this is a good time to pat ourselves on the back for all the good things we're doing, and to take this time to look though our chapters at some traditions we are perpetuating that are not in alignment with the goals of our parent organizations.

I also feel that she was off-base in saying in the bit of the book's excerpt that the nationals were hiding something by refusing to grant interview. I think the nationals were trying to avoid unpleasant scandalous slants, as journalists have no interest in reporting on the "softer side" of sorority life. Soft doesn't sell papers, nor move books. I also do find it hard to believe that she was able to find 4 women so easily who kept their mouths shut about what she was doing, and wonder about those "rejects" who didn't want to cooperate-- wouldn't they have told someone? Again, I find it hard to believe that this book chronicles just 4 women at one university in one year. Yes, a lot happens in a year, but for 3 out of the 4 to be date raped sounds like a very strange set of circumstances.

I think most pageant consultants would be rush consultants? And I am sure in the south it is more word-of-mouth, and I doubt those consultants make this a full time job!

I had to laugh because the way she answered the media question made it seem that the "media blackout" mandated by all 26 NPC organizations headquarters was all because of her.

Um no. That's been the policy for a while.

I just heard her on "Air America" (liberal radio). GRRRR. Not enough to make me switch over to Fox, but still.....

What kills me is that she occasionally qualifies what she says with "not everyone is like that" or "the nationals are cracking down on hazing" and then proceeds to tell horrifying stories of hazing and sexual hi-jinks. She claimed sorority girls are obsessed by boobs, boys, boobs, boobs and boobs.

Anyone out there ever make pledges strip and line up by boob size? Think she made this up to hype sales to horny guys? How else is she going to sell this?

The main thing the Air America folks were complaining about was how appallingly apolitical the girls in the book were. Well hello - that's college kids. I was always stunned when I met another person (greek or not) who enjoyed talking politics. Hell, I was stunned when I found another person who liked talking about books!

And should sororities be involved with politics? I don't think that's appropriate, but they do get involved with women's issues that we can all agree on regardless of our politics - breast cancer, heart disease, domestic violence, child abuse, etc. - absolutely no mention of that.

Sorry for the rant, but I was expecting a little more balance and a little less out-and-out titallation.

The story wasn't about sororities and whether they are good or bad for college women. If it had been, they should certainly have attempted to show various sides of the story.

The story was about the release of a book -- in other words, a feature piece about a new development in popular culture, no different from a story about Cruise & Cruz breaking up. This kind of story doesn't really have two sides. The standard thing to do in that situation is to interview the author, and that's about it.

Now, it would be great if news outlets more frequently used pop culture developments like this as a jumping-off point for real analysis of real questions (like whether sororities are good or bad for college women), rather than just showcasing personalities. But this is definitely par for the course on a morning show. If you want real news with smart reporters who report all perspectives fairly, read the Wall Street Journal or listen to NPR.

Ok I bought the book . . so far its not bad.

I mean it reads like a discussion on GC, especially some of he ones we have had about southern sororities.

I am only into the first part and I already don't like Vicki she is just kind of pathetic. One boy friend since she was in 7th grade and her sisters "persuade" her to break up with him, which isn't really her fault you know . . . and she is all broken up about it because he is the love of her life . but got in the way of her social sorority duties . . in other words she felt left out.


Just reading about her makes me faintly nauseous.

Sabrina seems pretty cool so far . . and Caitlin seems a bit of a flake but well its early on. . .

Maybe I can just skip the parts with Vicki?

i read parts of the book today at the bookstore. most of her sources are crap. as someone else pointed out, most college professors wouldn't accept some of her sources.

my main question is....she quoted the kappa delta norman shield frequently. doesn't she need to get permission to publish that in her book? it is great and all that she credited the source, but how can she just publish portions of someone else's book without their permission? even tho it is a new member manual and not a novel, shouldn't it be copyrighted? and if she didn't get permission, does kd have some rights to sue?

You don't know that she didn't get permission.
Additionally, kappadelta.org seems to list publicly a whole bunch of Acrobat files making up the Norman Shield on their website.
Finally, in any case the publisher of the book itself is fairly large and its parent company is a Time Warner company. The chances that their extensive legal teams didn't make sure everything was okay are very-slim to none.

I'm about 99% sure that KD did NOT give her permission. Being that NPC was against this to begin with, that KD expressly told me NOT to talk to her, and that the NPC sororities VERY rarely comply with this sort of thing.

Just because something is published on a website does NOT mean that anyone can take it and use it in their own publications. It's still protected by copyright law. Additionally, from what has been said, she did not even use anything from this version, she used an early 90's version, which is NOT on the web.

I only have an intro level copyright class under my belt, and we didn't delve too deeply into the laws surrounding the book publishing world. I'm guessing the company would use a "fair use" argument because they would say it's educational in nature. But I don't know where the line between fair use and copyright infringement would be in this case.

I put the question about this out on our KD yahoogroup, i'd like to see if anyone from HQ will answer my question, as they occassionally do when we put that type of question out in the group. If not, I intend to contact HQ more directly once my book arrives and i get to see exactly how it's cited.

And don't be so certain about Time-Warner's legal teams.... big companies screw up all the time. And the law in the US, ESPECIALLY copyright law, can be interpreted in many ways. Copyright law is an area that is very rarely cut and dry.

who interviewed her on the today show? i would think that katie couric would want to be all over that opportunity