But if the campus is wanting a sorority to come to Ole Miss, and they chose a group that had been there in the past (AZD or ZTA), would there be such a big deal in the previous reputation (if it's been a while since they were there).

Seems like if the sororities voted to bring another group on campus they shouldn't be bad mouthing the group they choose themselves. I don't see how it would hurt their chapter numbers any if another group colonized. Sounds like they could colonize TWO groups and be just fine!!!

PsychTau

Yes. Unfortunately, change comes slowly on a campus like Ole Miss (or my alma mater, for that matter), and bad reputations are extremely hard to shake.

ZTA just left in 1999.

If you read the thread from the beginning, you can see a lot of these questions answered.

Ole Miss is not like any other school I know. The Greek culture is completely different than at most places.

I don't think AXiD, ADPi, or ZTA should consider going back ANY time soon. DZ, I think, has been gone for such a long time that they could stand a chance (IMO).

I don't know that the sororities would be 'bad mouthing' the group they choose to bring on.
I think that the past reputation will live on. I know that is what happened on my campus. When a sorority left , years before I went through rush, we all heard of the reasons, etc. Who knows if the 'reasons' were true, but we all know how rumors fly.
I think it may be better to start fresh, and to pick a group with a strong alum base near Oxford.

Every word absolutely right, XOAlum. None of the existing groups are going to bad mouth a new GLO.

There are several challenges to colonize at Ole Miss, but a major one here is going to be alum support. Oxford is such a tiny little town, it really exists to support the University. The population is pretty small, so not many alums of any group right in town. Jackson is the largest city in the state and has a number of alumnae, but it is 3 hours south. Memphis is only an hour north, which makes a big difference in drawing alum support.

It just seems (to me) to make the most sense that the strongest alumnae base would come from women who were in the chapters that had been at Ole Miss, but folded (or at least that they would have more alumnae in the area than would a group that had never been on the campus). I know that wouldn't necessarily be true, but it seems that these Southern women seem to stay in the area - they grow up there, go to school there, then raise their families there. So the question is, where are the alumnae from the chapters that folded? Just because the chapter isn't there doesn't mean the alumnae aren't there. At least that's the reasoning in my mind.

ETA: Upon rereading the thread (it had been so long since I first read it!) OleMissGlitter makes the point that these alumnae are there and would be willing to support a new chapter.

Of course my earlier statement was a hypothetical one based on everyone's observations that it would be "really hard for a group to recolonize because of their past reputation"

I guess it's just really disheartening to me that a campus panhellenic would vote to bring a group on, then vote to choose a group that had previously been on campus, then go talk about why they left campus in the first place. That's basically sabotaging an expansion by the people responsible for starting it in the first place!

Granted, if it was a group that left recently (like ZTA in 1999), there would still be stories floating around. But if the group left 20 or 25 years ago....who cares why the left in the first place? Why even worry about it?

I know people are human and they'll talk, but it's getting to the point that Ole Miss might be actually driving potential groups away with all this stuff.

Not to offend any Ole Miss'ers out there...but think about it. Sure, rumors will get to the PNMs, but I don't see why it matters that a group closed due to numbers even 10 years ago. That was in the past. Seems like if the current Greeks would refuse to perpetuate that, and if they would explain to the PNMs that what went on 10 years ago (with a previous group) means NOTHING to this new colonization, it would help things tremendously. Of course, this leads me to the topic that we don't often explain enough things to PNMs during recruitment, and that's just a soapbox I don't need to get on right now!!

/rant

Seriously, this isn't just attacking Ole Miss....it's in a lot of places. Nothing personal to any Ole Miss actives or alums.

PsychTau

I think it is entirely possible that a new group could have success. (Take Theta, for instance...)

There are alums from those old groups that left campus. There are also alums from the groups that were there when other groups left. These alums are the same ones sending their daughters, granddaughters, etc. to join traditionally "Mississippi" chapters (Tri-Delta, ChiO, DG, Kappa, etc.) They are the ones that still tell stories about the GLOs that left, even if it was years ago.


I can remember as a PNM, I heard about the ADPis that had to leave campus. I heard how (so-called) awful they were. And, that had been years since they went off-campus. I can also remember going through rush and hearing other PNMs talk about how their mothers had told them to stay away from ZTA. I remember hearing from one GLO member in particular how ZTA was "about to be shut down" and how we should drop them as fast as we could.

I remember being told by one GLO member that they couldn't wait for us to leave so that they could demolish our house and build a sunroom onto their house.

I am not singleing any GLO out. We left b/c of numbers. But, having PNMs come through COB and tell us they had doubts about joining b/c people had told them we were being kicked off campus didn't help either. (This went on for about two to three years before we actually left...)

I think the best shot would be a group with alum support. But, they would do best (IMHO) if they have never been on campus before. This would dispell most of the bad rep problem, I think.


Edited b/c this topic still touches a raw nerve and it makes it hard to clearly articulate my thoughts.

I have no doubt that Panhellenic spirit will prevail, and the Greek women will support whatever new group comes to Ole Miss.

It's all about perception and tradition at southern schools. My high school classmates who went to LSU cut "the Alphas" early in recruitment. ("the curse of the Alphas" at LSU has been discussed in many threads here already, so I won't repeat it.)

It's kind of like buying a car. Even though Kia and Hyundai offer the best warranties of any make and their cars are competitively priced and attractive, most car buyers in this market segment would rather own a Honda or a Toyota.

(With all due respect to Kia and Hyundai owners. :) )

Okay, as far as I know all 9 Panhellenic sororities voted last night a YES for the IDEA of extension. I thought about this last night for a while and I think DZ or ACW, would be a good idea. I mean, I know we aren't talking names of sororities yet, but since DZ was here from 1928-1953 they aren't a household name (meaning up at Ole Miss, I know they are huge at LSU!!!). However, they do have tons of legacies going through each year, of course these legacies are from other universities, but still they are legacies. This could help them and I know ACW is big in the state of Alabama from what I've heard. All in all, we are going to let NPC guide our Greek system to the best chapter and to help us in the best way possible attract a new chapter of a GLO. I also thought about this, what happens if no GLO wants to come and expand at Ole Miss? What if they don't want to risk a loss or a loss of money in trying to set up camp at Ole Miss? What happens when that happens? Does that mean our Greek system is a failure and we are too elite or too bias or something???? Would that mean we would have to lower quota or something? I am not a Panhellenic guru or anything!

From what states does Ole Miss draw the most out-of-state students? These states should be looked at to see which groups would provide the strongest alumnae base.

Me neither! Though in the past year I helped with the colonization of our chapter at Harvard, so I know a little more than I used to. Harvard's Greek system is as different from Ole Miss's as it could possibly be, but the procedure for inviting a new group is probably close to the same.

First, all NPC groups were sent a letter from Harvard's Panhellenic and invited to present a proposal. The letter outlined the criteria for selection of a new group at Harvard: strong national reputation, diversity of membership, and strong local alumnae support.

Three groups were selected to give presentations to Panhellenic. Each group visited for a weekend. In addition to a formal presentation to Panhellenic by a team of national officers, local alumnae met with the Harvard sorority members at informal receptions.

Keep us posted on how this progresses at Ole Miss!

With just over 9,000 undergraduates, about 1,750 first-time full-time freshmen, and nearly 11,000 students total on the Oxford campus, Ole Miss is a comfortable size. We are large enough to provide comprehensive offerings and a full student life yet not so large as to be overwhelming. With students from 70 foreign countries, 47 states, and all 82 Mississippi counties, you'll meet people from all over. About 35 percent of UM's students are from somewhere other than Mississippi, 51.5% are female, and 12.1% are African-American.---from Ole Miss web page...


Anyway, I would say they are from MS, LA, TN, AR, AL, TX, KY, FL, GA---basically Southern states.

I was actually talking with our national president about this a while back. She agreed that it would almost have to be AXO to colonize here. They have a really strong chapter at Alabama, and there are a lot of AL girls that come to Ole Miss. DZ may be a good choice too. I don't really know much about the DZ's at other southern schools, except that they have chapters at many of them. I agree that another organization is needed and it will take some $$$$.

OleMissGlitter - Did they mention what they were going to do about a house?

BTW...most of the out-of-state students are from Tennessee....the second most is Texas.

LOL, Florida isn't really a "Southern" state!!! Not in the sense of Ole Miss being a Southern school, anyways. :D

To HottyToddy: I haven't heard about a house. They could build on in the Tri Delta Parking Lot across from Kappa. Or perhaps they could go somewhere over by the Chancellor's House, there is tons of land across from Phi Delta Theta house. However, I don't know if they can do that, there might be some rule with where a sorority house is and also that would suck to be so far away from the other sorority houses. I would think when they come, the new group that is, they will have a floor or floors in Crosby and make that their home while they get organized and decide on what to do with a house. As posted before and you know too, the ZTA and ADP house are both owned by the university and there is no talk of them ever going for sale. Plus the former ZTA house was bought by an alumni and the university so I doubt they'll give up the Hospitality Management House to a sorority. Plus, they just renovated the ZTA house last year to fit the needs of the Hospitality Management major (new kitchen, offices, classrooms).

Anyway, I think only time will tell and I was just on ACW 's website and they are HUGE in the south! They have so many FL chapters it is crazy and they are HUGE in TX! They also look very strong in SC and NC! WOW! I think they need to come! Not that any other group wouldn't be great, but gosh A-Chi-O looks very strong in the Southern states, and yes I consider FL southern.... :)

Holy cow! I had no idea Ole Miss was that small!!

Well...I know that's not small, but here's a comparison. I got my undergrad degree from a campus of 5,000 students (SMALL!) and my graduate degree from a campus of 10,000 (medium). So Ole Miss is the size of my grad campus...which is weird to me because I thought of that campus as "small" compared to the SEC type schools. (U of AR has about 16,000 students). I was thinking Ole Miss was the same size as the U of A, if not larger.

Hmmm....now I don't know what to think. I think quota on my grad campus (of 10,000) this past recruitment was 23 or so (for 5 sororities). Interesting difference in the greek system size.

PsychTau

Yes, we are small, but we do have two other campuses, which make our like total enrollment rounded to about 13,000. But undergrad is small. However, they are expecting between 950-1000 women to register for recruitment this fall 2004. So, that is a large amount of women to go through recruitment and with only 9 houses and quota was a 86 this past year and all houses took at least 90, we need something. I mean if all continue to take 90 or more new members we will have 300 members plus in another year or two! And then we might have to build on to our already rather large sorority houses. I know AOII is seriously thinking about an addition and then a large renovation this summer. Craziness.

Not trying to argue with you or anything, you're just the first person I have EVER heard say that! I grew up in Florida and moved to NC when I started college...basically I moved North to "go South" lol! In college I got made fun of so much when people found out I was from Florida. They were like, "Go home yankee!!!" And there are always the endless jokes about how Florida should just break off and float back up to New York where it belongs....

Anyways, I'm biased (of course), but Alpha Xi has just as many (if not more) chapters in those same states as Alpha Chi (just not in Texas! holy cow!!!). I think that DZ or even Sigma Kappa would be considered more "Southern" than Alpha Chi. But that's just my perception. Isn't it funny how we all have different perceptions of each GLO?

I think it's great that we can even have this discussion - I LOVE LOVE LOVE hearing about expansion!!! I get so excited, even if it isn't Alpha Xi.

That's all we need is to eliminate another parking lot! ;)

I was actually a hospitality mgmt major and....they didn't really do a whole lot to the old ZTA house. The didn't re-build the kitchen to fit our needs. All of our professors would complain about how bad the kitchen was set up...not that they would ever consider moving the hospitality department again. Although it would be in their best interest, since they are trying to make that program stronger, to build a new facility and manke the old ZTA house a sorority house...I mean it IS right in the middle of sorority row...
But that'd take even more $$

thank you ole miss glitter
 

for considering florida part of the south!! i am a true southern girl and an 8th generation floridian. i eat grits, not cream of wheat, swamp cabbage, not hearts of palm and mustard greens, not endive. while florida has many "transplants", there are plenty of us whose families go back hundreds of years in the state. and anyone who thinks tallahassee and gainesville are not true southern towns has never visited there!

HottyToddy, I was told they did redo it for ya'll! Anyway, good to know, I've been there a few times to eat lunch last semester with some co-workers, good food those Hospitality Management majors make!


Anyway, I guess any sorority would be great at Ole Miss. I think at this point they need to figure out why those who did not join a sorority didn't join a sorority. If it was because of the high dues, perhaps a sorority without a house would be sufficient. I will say this we do have Omega Phi Alpha here now and they are doing great. I would say they probably have at least 65-75 members. They are doing great and I know they appeal to women who do not want the expenses of a sorority with a house, staff, house mother, etc...

Anyway, does anyone know what's happens if no sorority is interested in starting up here?

Re: thank you ole miss glitter
 

Absolutely true...I normally tell people that I'm fron NORTH Florida, and that south of say, Ocala, we're two different states. Pensacola, Jacksonville, and St Augustine are as Southern as little towns can be! My family has been in North Florida for at least 8 generations, and I challenge anyone who says I'm not from the South to come to North Florida and see how it really is. :p

I like the idea of AXO at Ole Miss, if only because the chapters in surrounding states are strong, and I know a lot of alumnae from Mississippi and Tennessee.

/hijack

On the Florida issue: if you really want to get nit-picky, you could kinda' split Florida up longways instead of horizontally (the coasts, and then the middle section). The middle section (which does include Gainesville - the only thing there really is the college) is the section that 301 runs through. That area is definitely more Southern than the rest of FL, but I don't really consider it "Southern" like I would consider Mississippi or Georgia Southern. And then of course the Panhandle is a little more Southern too, but again, not hard-core Southern. I don't really see Tally as a small Southern town though; it's not completely in the middle of nowhere like G-town is. I definitely don't consider St. Augustine Southern. Its competition is Charleston, SC and Savannah, GA and I don't really see that connection at all. But that's just my $0.02.

/end hijack

OleMissGlitter, do you know what the Greek percentage is on campus? I can't remember if that's been mentioned.

ETA: What about some of the sororities in the smaller schools around Mississippi that aren't at Ole Miss?

[hijack]
Florida is weird in the sense that you could have what seems like a "Northern" town only a few miles from a town that is "Southern". I'll use South Florida as an example. Fort Lauderdale is not at all considered a Southern town but Davie is not too far away and I'd consider that to be more "Southern" (although not Southern like Mobile or Jackson). I've always felt that North Florida and some parts of Central Florida were very Southern. Tallahassee, Jacksonville, and Pensacola are rich in Southern tradition. But, let's just all agree to disagree about FL because this thread is about Ole Miss and not about FL being Southern. :) [/hijack]

Anyways, AXO is VERY strong in Florida. Like OleMissGlitter said, they have a lot of chapters in FL. I think there are either 6 or 7 chapters here. They're up there with ZTA, TriDelta, DG, ADPi, and KD in having the most chapters in the state. Having such a strong alum base not too far away would definitely help if AXO were to colonize at Ole Miss.

edited for a typo

OleMissGlitter, do you know what the Greek percentage is on campus? I can't remember if that's been mentioned.

ETA: What about some of the sororities in the smaller schools around Mississippi that aren't at Ole Miss?

-----------------------------
About 35% of undergraduate women and 25% of undergraduate men are active in the Greek system as members of social fraternities and sororities.--From Ole Miss Admissions Website

-------------------------------
Other University's in MS with Greek Life:

Mississippi State University-Starkville, MS--> CW, DDD, DG, ZTA, FM, KD, DXF(local I believe)

University of Southern Mississippi--Hattiesburg, MS--> CW, DDD, DG, ADP, FM, KAQ, KD, PBF

Delta State University--Cleveland, MS--> DDD, FM, KD I'm not 100% sure about Delta State, I couldn't find it on their website...

Millsaps College--Jackson, MS--> CW, DDD, KD, FM

I grew up in Brooklyn, and when I visited South Florida as a kid, I always felt right at home. When I was a freshman at FSU, in Tallahassee, I experienced severe culture shock. This was the deep, deep south. Complete with Spanish Moss slowly dancing in the wind, on great oak trees.

Culturally, Tallahassee is very similar to South Georgia, and I don't read anyone calling South Georgia "un-Southern." Also, Tallahassee is by no means more Southern than the rest of North Florida and the Panhandle.

Out of state colleges bordering near Mississippi

** = Chapter currently not at Ole Miss

University of Memphis

Alpha Delta Pi **
Alpha Gamma Delta **
Delta Gamma
Kappa Delta
Phi Mu
Pi Beta Phi
Sigma Kappa **

University of Arkansas

Alpha Delta Pi **
Chi Omega
Delta Delta Delta
Kappa Delta
Kappa Kappa Gamma
Pi Beta Phi
Zeta Tau Alpha **

University of Alabama

Alpha Chi Omega **
Alpha Delta Pi **
Alpha Gamma Delta **
Alpha Omicron Pi
Chi Omega
Delta Delta Delta
Delta Zeta **
Gamma Phi Beta **
Kappa Alpha Theta
Kappa Delta
Kappa Kappa Gamma
Phi Mu
Pi Beta Phi
Sigma Delta Tau **
Zeta Tau Alpha **

Auburn University

Alpha Chi Omega **
Alpha Delta Pi **
Alpha Gamma Delta **
Alpha Omicron Pi
Alpha Xi Delta **
Chi Omega
Delta Delta Delta
Delta Gamma
Delta Zeta **
Gamma Phi Beta **
Kappa Delta
Kappa Kappa Gamma
Phi Mu
Pi Beta Phi
Sigma Kappa **
Zeta Tau Alpha **

Louisiana State University

Chi Omega
Delta Delta Delta
Delta Gamma
Delta Zeta **
Kappa Alpha Theta
Kappa Delta
Kappa Kappa Gamma
Phi Mu
Pi Beta Phi
Zeta Tau Alpha **

Great post TSteven!

Also, like TSteven pointed out U of Memphis has several sororities that we do not have and Memphis is just about an hour from Oxford. So, U of Memphis could help out with a colony down here. Also, Tuscaloosa, is about 3 1/2 hours away and that is where Bama is located.

Your chapters get larger and larger like at LSU. Expansion was tried 3 times there in the last 10 years and nothing took. The sororites have all made huge additions and renovations to their houses to accomodate the larger chapter sizes. This really hurts any new group who may want to come because the capitol investment of a house goes up with each new feature. Think in the $1.5 - $2 million price range and that doesn't include the normal expansion costs. A sorority needs to look hard at the bottom line and determine if a campus is really worth that outlay.

There was also mention about an NPC group colonizing without a house. That is very unrealistic especially if there is no house in the immediate future. All NPC groups need to be on the same field regarding housing. If not, the unhoused group will suffer tremendously. I am speaking specifically about campuses like Ole Miss and LSU.

Omega Phi Alpha does well without a house because it is not in direct competition with the NPCs.

See....people have posted which sororities are at nearby colleges and which would be good choices but those of us who've been around for awhile know which sororities have been at those colleges and left. And many, many Southern women know this and very likely would not join these groups if they tried to go to Ole Miss because their chapter at a nearby school failed--take my word. If ABC left State or Arkansas, dyed-in-the-wool Greek families remember that.

Not making a value judgment on this, just pointing out what I've observed over the years.

the fact that people in Mississippi know this or CARES absolutely boggles my mind. Maybe its because im from the North (New York born and Jersey bred) but it amazes me how much people there care about this. A "reputation" of a group that failed at completely different school ACTUALLY makes a difference? wow. I understand not bringing back ZTA, but not bringing ABC that happened to fail at a nearby school that was never a chapter at Ole Miss? I dont mean to offend anyone, but it seems so silly in my mind.

On that note, as an Alpha Chi, i would love to see a chapter at Ole Miss. Our national would work hard to make it suceed- they worked tirelessly with our chapter, spent a ton of money and resources (national visitors, etc) to bring it up to speed. It seems to be working, as we got quota plus this semester. I dont know about money wise, but I think National could expend the manpower.

One thing I've observed about the state of Mississippi is that practically everyone knows everyone else in the state! My perception is that this occurs because basically the state is made up of a bunch of small towns. Jackson is the largest city and they have a population of only 185,000. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but statistically, I don't think there's a large influx of people moving to Mississippi, so most of the population is from there & stays there.

Yes, we all do know each other, I mean I was born and raised in New Orleans, LA but now I reside in Oxford, MS and I did attend Ole Miss here. Anyway, it is a "small world," down here.

I think Alpha Chi Omega would do awesome here. But that's just my view.

Please no one take offense... I am from Mississippi myself and I am not hesitant to say so. I just don't think folks from other places really understand the Mississippi mindset & environment because it is SO different from anyplace else.

NutBrnHair got it right. Mississippi is a relatively isolated place, practically a fence around the state. Few people move out, fewer people move in. That is why everyone there knows each other! I am telling you, there is NO 7 degrees of separation between any 2 people in the state ;-)

There are a lot of reasons that Mississippi is like this. I won't go into them, some of them are not very flattering. Just acknowleging that this IS the environment there and has been for a very long time.

And an awful lot of the people there like it just the way it is. For many people, Mississippi feels very safe, kind of one big "small town", without a lot of the major problems of big cities. A good place to raise a family, a sense of community in an age where most of us don't know neighbors more than 3 houses away. Yes, people are born there, live there, go to college there, marry & settle down to raise a family all in Mississippi. Nothing wrong with this, if that's your cup of tea! It does make for very very long memories and tight knit groups.

I totally agree.

I think what a few of our Southern-challenged folk (I'm originally from the South and attended an SEC university) do not realize that in many, many cases, Greek life is embedded in Southern families and society. And as such, many women would rather not take a bid to *any* sorority than a bid from one of their *desired* GLOs.

I would also like to add that there are many Southern men, like their female Southern counterparts, who know these things as well. And with all due respect, they would not *desire* that their daughters or sisters join these GLOs as well. (i.e. chapters of failed GLOs)

And please note that I'm talking about the so called "failed" GLOs on certain campuses and not any particular GLO at all. (i.e. ABC failed at Alma Mater U. therefore, my daughter should not be an ABC at State U.) Frankly, it might not be right. But as Carnation put it, I'm "not making a value judgment on this, just pointing out what I've observed over the years."

Come down and visit the Coasties sometime. It's like living on another planet from up north!
Well, no...maybe it isn't. I'm originally from Metarie, and when my family moved to MS for me to start kindergarten, my parents were constantly told that I didn't go to the "right" preschool (because I'm originally from LA) and the "right" elementary school (which made no sense because it was the elementary school for our district). Just got worse during high school. And then people wonder why I went out of state for college!
Just my experiences, though. I don't get it because I'm not a born Mississippian.

I'm from New Orleans, born and raised like I've said before, I have a summer home on the coast of MS. The coast is WAY different from other parts of the state. However, they all have the same mindset when it comes to sorority life. I know of one family on the coast that would die if their daughters weren't all in a certain sorority at Ole Miss. They sponsor Summer Recruitment get-togethers on the coast and they are very pro-ABC sorority, even though their two daughters aren't yet old enough to even attend college. And their two daughters are very excited to one day join their mother, aunts, and grandmother in ABC's sisterhood and glory at Ole Miss.

I will say this, since I am an Ole Miss alumn and I do work for Ole Miss currently, in Alumni Affairs!, anyway, Ole Miss is a way of life, it is not just a place to come and get an education. We all sort of run with the same crowd after graduation, we all end up having the same interests after graduation and meeting up at unexpected places, and we all love our sororities and fraternities. I will say this, I think we have great alumni for our Greeks and for our university because they truly do love this place. I mean, it is beautiful, fun, provides an excellent education, and most of all it is Ole Miss, enough said...

Everything in this post is true. And it's not just the coast. This is also true of the DELTA! People from the delta think that it's the best place on earth...there is no where else. The guys are ALL in XYZ frat and most are heirs to the families cotton farms. Either that or their dad's are tobacco lawyers. And they all already know what GLO they are going to join by their 1st birthday. You truly have to see this place to beleive it. There was a girl in my sorority from Jackson who's baby blanket was a Phi Mu one her mother gave her. She said she'd slept with that blanket since she could remember.

I am from Tennessee and my going to Ole Miss was kind of random. I didn't know how it was til I got there. I had not had family there or anything. You hear stories and all..but seriously, we aren't stretching the truth. And after a while, you really start to beleive that Ole Miss is the best place on earth. Not the only place, but the best place. Like OleMIssGlitter said...it's not just a school...it's a way of life. On the days that we don't wear our greek letters, we wear a shirt that says "Ole Miss: We're not snobs....we're just better than you." This is mainly directed toward Mississippi State.

the above is all true - and from an SEC rival's view (I went to UF) Ole Miss is also one of the best places to visit - not only were my AOII's sisters always the sweetest things to us when we would come visit - but so were all the Ole Miss students and alums! There are some roadtrips you look forward to and Oxford was always one of them!!