I know that there is a special board devoted to hazing, but I just had to ask some questions. If all of that is considered hazing, why don't you all just initiate the members right after they get a bid? Why even have a educational process (or whatever you might call it) if they aren't required to do anything? Wouldn't the meetings for the new members be considered hazing too because the active members aren't required to go, or are the meeting just come "whenever you feel like." Now I know why so many sorority members I used to see around campus when I was in school not have any pride in their sorority because they knew nothing about the history and only stayed in it for the first year just to get the "free stuff."

It's sad that it because some people got out of hand that now hazing has to be classified so strictly.

I'm sorry, did I miss something? Did I mention you by name dzjen27? Did I even quote you? Wait, let me go back & read my post & see...NOPE, sure didn't. I was speaking GENERALLY in reference to SEVERAL comments that have been made on the board on the topic of what hazing is/isn't. It just happened that your comment was among them & the most recent. I'm sorry you feel I personally attacked, but that's your issue. I wasn't attacking ANYONE.

Yes, mass accuzations of hazing without knowing that particular organization's rules are ignorant. IN MY OPINION (I am still allowed to have a different opinion here, right??) Ignorant doesn't mean one is stupid, it simply means that one DOES NOT KNOW ANY BETTER. Am I now hazing you for saying you don't know what MY organization's rules on hazing are? :rolleyes: You're not a member so you wouldn't know. Different organizations, even ones WITHIN the same governing body as it's been evidenced here, have different rules. There is NOTHING WRONG with that. Like dsmmi said, if you have a problem with wearing a pin 24 x 7 while pledging, them maybe our organization ain't for you.

Like what was said, each type of greek organization defines hazing in different ways. Michigan doesn't have a state law for hazing and when I looked at my former university's policy on hazing, this is what they consider hazing:

At the least, the word "hazing" includes the following willful acts, with or without the consent of the individual involved:

physical injury, assault or battery
kidnapping or imprisonment
intentionally placing at risk of severe mental or emotional harm (putting "over the edge")
degradation, humiliation, or compromising of moral or religious values
forced consumption of any liquid or solid
placing an individual in physical danger (at risk) which includes abandonment
impairment of physical liberties which include curfews or other interference with academic endeavors.


Like 12dn94dst said, it kind of ignorant to say someone is hazing defined by your organization's policies. Each state doesn't agree on what hazing is, so why should everyone on greekchat agree?

If all of that is considered hazing, why don't you all just initiate the members right after they get a bid? Why even have a educational process (or whatever you might call it) if they aren't required to do anything?

Some orgs are moving to a program that is like the one you're suggesting. For example SFE's Balanced Man Program does something similar. They do have an educational process.

I know that Kappa's New Member Program was established with the intent of cutting down on the possibility of hazing. Our purpose is not to separate new sisters from the rest of us (and yes, NMs are considered sisters, just not active ones). Our purpose is to integrate them as fully as possible while they are learning about the fraternity. Once they've learned enough for the Secrets to make sense, they're Initiated into active membership.

I don't like the idea that one should have to prove oneself continually in order to earn Initiation. In my opinion (and as I don't know anything about the NPHC or MCGLOs, I speak only about NIC/NPC), bidding a person means that we want him/her to be a brother/sister. Not "We want to give you the chance to prove yourself as someone who could maybe be a brother/sister." That's what rush is for. We meet men/women. If we are mutually compatible, we bid them. They become members. It's that simple. In my experience, if we've made a mistake, if that person has some sort of royal character flaw or whathaveyou, she'll usually depledge.

And I just want to go on the record as saying that I wholeheartedly agree with Candace's statement about "feeling the presence" of sisterhood. I had a new Initiate, one who'd been leukwarm about the whole process, tell me that our Initiation was the most beautiful and wonderful thing she'd ever seen. She is now an incredibly dedicated, loyal, and involved active member.

aephi alum,

Just wanted to say, "No problem" about the Pi Phi letters thing. It's hard to keep track of which NPC does what...even I have problems remembering that we don't do that! :D

In my mind, the NPC definition of hazing says it best,

"Hazing is defined as any action or situation with or without consent which recklessly, intentionally or unintentionally endangers the mental or physical health or safety of a student, or creates risk of injury, or causes discomfort, embarrassment, harassment or ridicule or which willfully destroys or removes public or private property for the purpose of initiation or admission into or affiliation with, or as a condition for continued membership in a chapter or colony of an NPC member fraternity. All member groups will affirm their policies denouncing hazing and inform their membership of this NPC position denouncing hazing through mailings and through their inter/national magazines."

there's my $0.02

Ok, here are some questions that have been burning in my mind since the first episede, and who better to anserw them than Mara.

1) ok, this really isn't a question, but I am so glad that scene stealing, drama queen, Maybelline ho, MTV plant jordan de pledged. She annoyed the hell out of me from the first episode.

2) Why were all the pledges so old? Most pledges, at least at my alma mater were freshmen. All of the pledges seemed to be over 21.

3) Where was all the sorrority stuff. The whole thing was total drama and the pledges going out to bars and hooking up with random guys (Candice and Amanda). Where were the weekly meetings, the philanthropy events, greek week, etc.? This was a very skewed picture of greek life, like I'm supprised.

4) Where was the rest of the pledge class besides the girls in the pledge house, equiped with a hot tub, because all fraternity and sorrority houses at campuses across the nation have hot tubs.

5) Who got to pick who was in the "Pledge House"? How much recruiting did MTV do on campus to cast the show?

6) Ok, again, not a question, but it needs to be said. I really got tired of the pledges complaining "they don't respect me...blah blah blah." You're a pledge. You ARE being judged, that's the whole point of the process. While at the same time, the pledges are showing absolutely no respect to the sisters lying to them about various things almost every week. Respect is a 2 way street girls.

7) The thing about "not feeling safe in that hotel" was pretty weak. Really weak way of saying "the hotel you booked wasn't good enough". Not everyone who attends college is rich. In fact, most are on a pretty tight budget. And getting up to leave duing a presentation, come on. It's called courtesy people. There's no other word for it than out right rude.

8) I'm proud of the way Mara handled initation, though. She realized it wasn't for her, and very graciously bowed out. Much more graciously than Jordan, always wanting people to appologize to her for stupid things.

That's all I've got. I just can't believe they found more organizations to participate after the first time around. I just hope this dosen't give greeks an even worse name, becaue I know no national would ever consent to this or condone this type of portrayal.

I still haven't seen it.

QTEIf you are my sister, trust can always be rebuild, I pray that some sisters would of had enough sense to know that if you and jordan had the most points and tried to make friends, you guys did have good intentions, do you and Jordan still hang out? And have you seen Candence, Amanda, Jessica, or Dede on campus?

jordan's rant
 

looking at mtv.com, mara's column made sense. jordan, however, just came across as an overly dramatic rant, making not a lot of sense. you might take a look.