"I think it would have been much safer for us to be drinking in the house than drinking in a bar. A lot of times, the producers would be at the bar, buying us drinks, but not on camera. That didn't seem right"

interesting that the producers would buy them drinks too.

One question: why are most of these girls even there? Most of them seem so unexcited about everything the sorority entails that I can't see why they even bother going through with it. Aside from the TV thing, of course.

The formal was gorgeous.

I didn't think it was that bad for Candace and Amanda to wear sunglasses, but their behavior definitely left something to be desired.

I'm not even going to comment on Mara and Jordan.

Re: for all you Jordan fans...
 

This leads me to believe one or the other was not initiated...
My guess is Jordan... since she is not in the Summer formal pics.

TG

That's what i was thinking...:rolleyes:

Does anyone know when the last episode is? As much fun as I have watching every Monday night, I am anxious to see who actually sticks it out and who doesn't, although, I've seen the pictures on the Sigma Alpha Epsilon Pi website, and noticed some faces missing.
One thing I think about everytime I watch is how are all the sisters feeling after hearing each other's deepest thoughts. I mean, you just can't go into the little confessional MTV sets up for its casts, spill your guts about how you hate the activities of your sorority, you don't want so and so to be a sister, drinking in the pledge house, etc. and then expect no one to see it. I'm sure all the sisters have seen the Real World or Road Rules. Every little dirty thought you say is shown to the world. I hope MTV does a Sigma reunion like they do with the Real World. It would be interesting to see what happened after the show aired.

Let me introduce you to an old southern tradition often seen at Fraternity Formals, Student Government Formals, etc.

One word...

*FLASK*

I dotn think i could do a formal without my little buddy in my coat pocket...

Of course down here its all wet...

Thank you, that is all.

I didn't know MTV provided "cars." I knew they provided a Yukon, but "cars?" Craziness! I am pretty sure I know who doesn't join; I found out a while back on MTV.com.

I wonder what is going to go on that is going to make us want to ask so many questions.

I think I heard that the season is only supposed to be ten shows long, so if that's the case it should be wrapping up pretty quickly. I could be wrong though.

to add to that... our sorority had our formal in SF this semester. My date got a regular coke, no alcohol, at the hotel. the glass was about the size of a double shot and cost $2.50. $8 is the norm in the city.
And i totally missed like half the episode. Maybe Zuma can clear something up for me: was the hotel included in your bid price? I am just trying to make sense of it all cuz if my group has an out of towner, we can offer to hold up about 15 blocked rooms for girls to share, but it's up to everyone to call the reservations and it's paid seperatly. For example, we were given the option to stay at the Sheraton in SF, but I chose to go back to my parent's house to stay and save cash. So i didn't really have a problem with jordan and mara switching hotels, but if it was all part of the big picture, ie you got the bid with the hotel, then i could see how feelings could be hurt.
and lemmie tell you, that room wasn't half as bad as this one hotel i stayed at in chico: vibrating beds and 70s decor... it looked like it came straight out of a porn... i digress. sorry.

The formal was soooooo pretty! I'm totally jealous of that spread.

The sunglasses--maybe not the best idea. It's strikes me that it would be less of a bad idea at the fall semi formal than spring sit down dinner formal formal! But it was their behavior that was heinous. Those four were smashed when they got there. They should have been better prepared with the cash if they had planned at drinking at the bar too. I'm left wondering though. Did the $8 include tip or not? Maybe Zuma can help me out here. Because $8 at a swank SF hotel wouldn't shock me. But I'd completely expect $7+$1tip=$8.
Most clubs are going to run you $6/drink normally so $8 doesn't seem like a stretch.

Walking out during presentations. Completely lame! I know I would have lost it. I can picture myself excusing myself, following them, and ripping them a new one!!! Amanda and Candace said they needed a break. :rolleyes: The sisters said the entire table walked out. Who else was at the table? I can't recall. I doubt Amanda and Candace sat w/ Mara and Jordan or Jessica and DeeDee.

Switching hotels. Well it is their money. As long as they realize they'd owe for both rooms. They should have asked for a different room first!!! The crack in the wall did suck but visually that seemed to be the worst of it. It's good enough for the sisters, what makes you so damn special? :mad:

Ditching to go to a strip club?!?! Please leave those Pledge Bracelets at the door! :eek:

Risk Management Issues
Switching hotels. How did they get to the formal? Everyone else was on the bus. (R/M kudos for the bus!)

Leaving the formal to wander looking for an atm, attempt to go to a club, attend a strip club.

Pre Partying. Amanda and Candace obviously did. Yes, everyone does it. But it's is still a R/M concern. :(

Kudos to Mtv for showing how a real sister would react to the suggestion of ditching her formal!

this thought came to this morning as i was reading everyone's posts....

jordan and mara are too classy to stay in that hotel, but obvisoulsy their class doesn't keep them from going to a strip club in overly expensive dresses. (i tried on mara's dress once, i believe it is close to $450)

It's not like they paid for those dresses themselves, did you see that ad nauseum product placement with the store the wardrobe came from?

yeah, you could totally tell that mtv paid for their little shopping spree. but my point being, you are in this fabulous dress and you go to a strip club in it????

Those two haven't showed any previous kind of class, it doesn't surprise me at all.

Just the fact that they would rather be out on the town at a strip club instead of being with their sisters - where they're supposed to be - nothing they do or say surprises me.

What little respect I had left pretty much vanished this week.

Yeah, I think that's the only thing MTV has done right with this show. I was glad to see a sister telling her date that she wasn't leaving...unlike their ungrateful pledges.

If we could find her, i'd like Zuma to reply to what she felt when it happened/ when she saw it on tv.

I was surprised about the $8.00 price as well. The J.W. Marriott in Washington D.C. has a great deal on drinks. For $6.50 you can purchase a 64 oz beer off the tap.

"Actually, the chapter is not responsible if something happens to them because the event is held at a third party vendor. The Westin would be held responsible if anything happened within the actual formal. As for outside, that would be the responsibility of the establishment they were attending." -Shadokat

I'm going to preface this post by saying that I have no formal legal training, only the layman's knowledge that comes from closely following the news, studying landmark Supreme Court cases in my high school U.S. government and political science classes, reading John Grisham novels, and watching Law & Order. This post is based on my simple understanding of the law, which I gleaned from the above sources and my training as chapter risk management and standards chairs. Any of our other, more finely tuned GC legal minds should please feel free to jump in at any time and correct my errors.

That said...

I attended a nifty presentation at Kappa Convention this summer. It's called "Something of Value," and it's presented by Greek women attorneys through NPC. It's all about the legal liabilities and responsibility issues involved with Greek life when it comes to alcohol, formals, etc. It's very interesting and informative, so informative, in fact, that it scared the living daylights out of most of the standards and risk management chairs who were there.

The point of the presentation is that while a chapter could not be held criminally liable for anything that happened to its members in such a situation, both the chapter, the national organization, and the individual members (as well as the hotel, bartenders, security firm, bus company, and anyone else) could be found responsible in a civil suit. The standard for a criminal negligence case, "beyond a reasonable doubt" means that the jury is 100% certain that the defendant could and should have done something to prevent the situation from occurring, that the situation is entirely the fault of the defendant's failing to act.

The standard for a civil responsibility case is different. It's called "preponderance of the evidence" and it's based on the question, "What would a reasonable person have done to prevent the situation from occurring?" If the jury believes that the defendant failed to do what any reasonable person might have done, even if they think the defendent is only a teensy bit responsible, they must find for the plaintiff. They then have the discretion to award damages as they see fit. They could find for the plaintiff and award damages in the amount of $1 if they wanted to. Juries have done that. Guilt is a yes or no question, but responsibility comes in myriad shades of gray.

So what does that mean for our dear friends at SAEP? Well, Sigma could not be held criminally liable. The individual responsiblity factor alone (meaning that the girls in question were obviously acting of their own free will) is enough to blast a huge hole in any prosecution case. For that reason, no prosecutor in his right mind would bring charges against them.

But, both Sigma's chapter and its individual members could be held responsible if Jordan and Mara were to, say, have been injured on their way over to the strip club or going home to their new hotel, or had Candace and Amanda been sexually assaulted in their drunken state, or so on. These sisters, who pledged loyalty and friendship to the pledges, should have at least said something like, "You should stay in the same hotel with the rest of us because it's safer," or, "Please don't go wandering around outside the hotel at night because it's dangerous," or, "Maybe you've had enough to drink," or, "Maybe you shouldn't go off alone with your date when you're both drunk like that," etc. Somebody should have kept an eye on them and their dates. Somebody should have cautioned them against pre-partying. They shouldn't have just stood idly by and let them leave, slobbering drunk as they were.

Now, maybe Sigma sisters did say these things. I would imagine that they might have. I hope that they had some sort of risk management talk before they even left for San Francisco, but I'm aware that had any of these things happened, the film would make it no further than the editing room floor. It's not good TV. Were Jordan, Candace, Amanda, and Mara's actions abhorrently irresponsible not to mention inexcusibly rude? Of course. Nobody argues with that. But did the other Sigmas have a duty to them as sisters, friends, women, and even fellow human beings to at least caution, if not intercede? I think so. Could a talented attorney convince a jury that anything that might have happened to these ladies was at least partially the fault of Sigma and its individual members? You bet your badges.

I think the price covered the cost of the room too because I remember thinking that it was the same amount of money I paid for prom more or less. Im not sure though, especially since Im alumni and dont pay dues, which could mean that I paid more than actives.

Editing to add:
*I never paid for the drinks, they were bought for me :D But $8 does sound about right for one of the nicest hotels in SF. I went to another hotel a few months later in SF and that was about the same.
*Some of the formal dresses were loaned by Macys, so the girls didnt keep them.
*This show just brought back good memories of a great night. I try not to focus on the drama that I didnt really feel that night.

The whole reason that national and international fraternities and sororities have risk management policies is to remove the risk of liability from the chapter/fraternity/sorority. That being said, the use of third party vendors is allowed for the reason that when you use a third party vendor, the liability lies with the vendor. For instance, you go to a bar and get served underage. That isn't the sorority or fraternity's fault...it's the vendors fault. If you drink too much at a third party vendor mixer and you drive and hurt someone, the VENDOR is responsible for having served you too much alcohol. While sisters should've taken your keys and not allowed you to drive, it's the bartenders at the facility who are serving you and seeing your condition.

Case in point...a man is at a bar, and is COMPLETELY bombed. He gets in his car and drives home and amazingly makes it. But, once home, he falls down the stairs to his basement, slamming his head off the concrete floor. He dies from swelling of the brain. So who is responsible? Well, the DA in this situation charged the BARTENDER for serving the man too much alcohol and allowing him to leave in that state. The bartender was charged with involuntary manslaughter, and while the charges were later dropped and not refiled, it shows you where the liability will lie.

I know this is completely off of the sorority life topic, and I apologize, but I think that it's important to realize that risk management is of the utmost importance, and there are reasons behind the policies we have.

I think that it Sigma wouldnt be held responsible for something that happens outside of the event that we provided. Once you leave the environment Sigma's provided, thats it, you're on your own. Think of it as the school dance policy, cant come back in so they arent responsible for your actions outside.

Please see KappaKittyCat's remarks above, distinguishing criminal liability from civil liability. She makes some very good points. While the nuances vary from state to state, criminal "fault" and civil "fault" are always treated differently. You seem to be talking about criminal responsibility. However, civil responsibility is spread much more broadly than criminal responsibility. The bartender in your sample case will be charged with serving a minor. But that will not necessarily keep the GLO from getting sued for negligence, and it's more likely than not that if the GLO and its members negligently or knowingly participated in getting people (especially minors) drunk and letting them get into dangerous situations, they'll lose. The details will depend on the specialized negligence doctrine of the state and the particular facts of the case.

I'll put it differently. Just because the GLO didn't break a law does not mean it can't be sued for negligence and lose.

But it's a different matter entirely if they've been allowing/encouraging people to get intoxicated inside.

the end is near
 

for what it's worth, the formal happened on May 18, according to pix on site, and the initiation happened on may 29, again according to the site. now grant you mtv takes liberal liberties in editing -- but school's just about out. phew.
:rolleyes:

Good point. Whoops.
So it other words, I dunno.

Zuma,
Will you tell us who you are when the show is over.
i think i know, but i'd like to wait and see if i am right.
-Maggie

You are right but not completely.
We just finished SEVERAL alcohol awareness classes offered by our nationals and our school.
Essentially this is how the law works. The blame lies with the third party vendors, as long as the sisters didn't know better. If I know that NM Becky is 18 years old and I see her present a fake ID (Manufactured or someone elses) and I don't do anything about it, and a lawyer can prove I was aware of how old she was and that she was misrepresenting her age at that point I am now liable because I was AWARE she was underage and consuming alcohol. So the blame now lies with the vendor AND me.
Hope that helps........

I understand you perfectly USF. Now what if I'm 21? What if it isn't about underage drinking, but as in this case, women leaving a formal to go to another establishment? Can they blame you because someone left on their own free will? I guess that's what my confusion is. You can't tie them to the chair :)

I'm not on the show. I'm an alumni, and I wasnt there for the year except at formal and picinic day. Hope that clears up any confusion.

Shadokat,

In this particular case, had something happened to Jordan, Mara, Candace, or Amanda when they left the hotel (either the Westin or the one at which Sigma had reserved rooms), the question would be, "Did the sisters have a reasonable idea that they were intoxicated and therefore in danger of injury or violation due to their lowered defenses?" If so, then as sisters who had pledged loyalty and friendship to each other, they had a duty to look out for each other.

I'll use the example from the "Something of Value" presentation in which I participated in the hopes that it clarifies:

Katie Kappa is terribly intoxicated at formal, falling down and blacking out for several minutes at a time. Her big sister, the social chair, and the chapter president decide that she needs to go home (not to the hospital). They put her and her date (also drunk) in a taxi, give the cabbie money and the address and send them along their way. Her date takes her up to her room and puts her on her bed. She promptly passes out and he leaves. Nobody finds her until the next afternoon. Katie suffers severe brain damage due to alcohol poisoning. The doctors say that they could have saved her had she been brought into the hospital that night instead of the next morning.

Katie's parents sue all three ladies as individuals and the chapter as a whole (not to mention the national organization, but we need not get into that). The parents claim that these sisters had a responsibility to their daughter and that the sisters defaulted on that responsibility. Though nobody forced Katie to drink and the bartenders and security should have also noticed that she was ill (they're also named in the lawsuit), her sisters should have helped her. The family's attorneys cite the mission statement of the Fraternity, which includes "Bonds of friendship, mutual support, opportunities for self-growth, respect for intellectual development, and an understanding of and an allegiance to positive ethical principles." In cross-examining each sister, they ask, "Knowing that your sister is blacking out, seeing her stumbling around drunk, continuing to allow her to drink, putting her in a taxi with a drunk boy who could have done anything to her instead of sending her to the hospital, and not calling to check on her later that night: Do these actions constitute bonds of friendship and mutual support?" They do this with every aspect of Kappa's mission statement and ideals to establish the duty that was owed to Katie, that which her sisters failed to deliver.

The point is this. When you are a member of a sorority, you have a reasonable expectation that your sisters will help you out if you get in a jam. How many stories have we heard about sisters bailing out other sisters that they've never met, all because they took the same vows so many years ago? Katie Kappa had a reasonable expectation that her sisters would keep an eye out for her and protect her. Not that they would babysit her, not that they would police her actions, not that they would tell her that she may or may not drink, but that they would keep her safe if she couldn't keep safe herself. They failed.

As much as I'm sure that Jordan, Mara, Candace, and Amanda hurt and angered their Sigma sisters at that formal, as members of the organization (whether pledge or active) these ladies had a reasonable expectation that at least one of their sisters would have issued a word of caution. Even if the pledges in question had left anyway, the fact that someone had said something would go a long way towards indemnifying the chapter and the individual members.

Again, I have no way of knowing whether they did or they didn't. As someone said in an earlier post, "If it didn't get on TV, then as far as the rest of the world is concerned, it didn't happen." I'll give Sigma the benefit of the doubt and assume that sisters do look out for each other. I also understand that nothing happened to them, but I want us to understand that something could have. I hope that at least one person tried to prevent them from leaving. I also hope that everyone, whether sorority or fraternity, international or local, service, professional, or social, realizes what a near miss Sigma had that night. I hope we learn from it.

Respectfully,
KKC

I'm totally late to this thread but just want to say that I see a lot of down to earth sisters in that sorority and can relate to them. I admire so many of them! Such class! It is all an MTV set up and I see that. The pledges- I'm sure MTV did this..... and did that..... to set them up- (bought them drinks, dresses, limos). All I care about is, as an alum, everyone now talks about sororities and wants to join. Once they go through rush and join- they will see how it really is (not MTV sorority wise) and that is what I want. 20 years from now- I was sororities to still be around for my daughter... I do not want them to die out ... so any publicity- I'll take.

Did anyone else feel kinda bad for Jordon tonight? I did. Granted, I'm not her biggest fan and she can be a bit of a drama queen, but the way she was approached, along with the other pledges, was totally screwed up. And that comment Ann made? "I don't like you disrespecting my sisters.", was totally meanspirited. While it may have been deserved or true, there is a time and a place. It's wrong to just come out and say something like that right after the girl gets off the phone with her Mom. I mean, she was getting directions to her grandma's funeral! While her actions at formal were disrespectful, I don't think she deserved to be approached like that especially when she's dealing with a personal loss.

I sooo agree with UCLA girl. Jordan is ridiculous and the sisters had EVERY right to act they way they did. And MAra is really getting to me too, IUm sorry pledges do NOT treat sisters like that, and Hello pprincess Mara and Jordan YOU DID DO SOMETHING WRONG!

i sorta agree with UCLAgirl, even though jordan was in midst of a personal crisis, there is no reason to be calling in the middle of a sister activity in a public room. She should have either waited until everyone left or went in her room. However, i think anne and jessie's behavior was also uncalled for. Being her "sisters" they should have asked her if she was ok, or if she needed anything when they saw she was obviously upset insted of jumping on her back again. or they just should have left her alone for the time being and deal with it when she returned from the services.

mara completely pissed me off last night. there are too many things that i could list...including her constant need to think she is the princess of the world.

and yes, candace and amanda you did try and go to a club. don't lie. it's on tape! JEEZ!

I would have had a lot more sympathy for her if she didn't have a completely snotty attitude during the entire pledging process.

I do agree that the Sigmas could have been a little more sympathetic to her about her grandmother, and could have been a little more tactful during that last night, but it was still a long time in coming.

And Mara......no words. Absoultely no words. I can't imagine acting like such an unbelievable snot rag during the pledge process. Or as a sister, allowing that attitude to exist.

I'm so glad those two don't make it.

I've restrained from posting but enough is enough.
What a bunch of lying morons!!! Now, these girls should remember that they are being followed by camera and that eventually somebody should see it. To blatantly lie to your sisters, is absolute crap!!
Jordan is so self-involved. The way she acted it appeared to me that she is (sad to say) using the death as an excuse so that all blame can be put on the sisters.
At first, I didn't mind Mara but she is such a little spoiled princess. You screwed up!! Leaving a hotel room because it's not "up to standards" Welcome to having a budget!!!
I find it hard to believe that Candace and Amanda would be so thick-headed to actually tell a sister one thing and then blatantly lie about to the others. Do they think that the sisters don't talk to each other or something? That's part of being in a sisterhood. You talk to each other!!
I agree that Becca should have talked to them first but on the other hand I can understand that the other sisters are probably quite frankly fed up with those new members for their blatant disregard for their sisterhood. The sisters have worked hard to keep their local alive and it could be in jeporady because of how a few "little girls" are behaving. I personally hope that only Dede and possibly Jessica make it to initiation and if the others leave voluntarily I don't think that too many of the sisters will shed a tear.

Of course that's just my opinion, I could be WRONG.

something's rotten in Davis.
 

I highly doubt that Jordan's grandmother passed away. I think the producers told her to do that to create drama. Since I've lived away from home I've lost 2 grandparents and my mother, and I assure you, the LAST thing on my mind would have been some sorority formal. The first thing on your mind, after grabbing clothes to take with you, is to get home and to your family as fast as possible. And JORDAN HAS A CAR. If she would have lived far away or had to wait for a flight or something, I could see it, but she didn't. She should have been out of there the minute she heard the news.

Plus her mom didn't seem too upset about the death of a family member. Plus - if this is her Jewish grandma - doesn't Jewish law dictate immediate burial? (i.e., you die on the 3rd and get buried on the 4th)

Sorry, but this is just SO fishy in so many ways. Remember when one of the Sigmas said on here that we had no idea how low the producers/MTV would sink? I think this is it.

I felt bad for Jordan, as losing a relative is very hard, and then to have these women who don't even want her in their sorority anymore to be all over her, that's just wrong.

I have a problem with a sister saying "we're watching you!". What kind of veiled threat is that??? Give me a break. Watch me walk out the door and never come back to Sigma, that's what I would've said!!

Well, I think that much of this drama could have been avoided if the sisters of Sigma had not taken all the girls who came through rush. I realize they are local and aren't held to Panhellenic rules like quota, but it is blatently obvious that some of those pledges fit that house and some do not.

I'm all for diversity in a chapter, but many of the Sigma sisters made it clear from the beginning that they thought some of these girls were in it for the TV time. And lo and behold, those are the ones we see each week. Every GLO knows there is always a "problem" pledge, but it seems to me Sigma set itself up to have a whole mess of them. If they had stayed true to themselves when handing out bids, I bet we would see a great, strong, diverse group of sisters who really cared about one another. 'Course, I guess MTV wouldn't have us all watching then, would they!?!?

They did. Their policy in previous years has apparently been to let everyone who wanted to pursue membership, do so, and they pride themselves on being nonselective. They felt it wouldn't be right to go against that policy just because of MTV. I agree. But the media whore capabilities of some of these pledges have no bounds.