Exactly. These aren't the cast of the first Real World who can't believe how much it blew up. These are young men who have grown up with the Internet always in their lives. They're not just racists, they're egregiously stupid racists. I'm betting (sorry to say) there are far more people out there who would refuse to hire them or admit them to school because they're dumb and indiscreet, rather than because of their racial views.

Let's be honest, there are plenty of people out there to whom these guys just became great candidates for employment.

SAE's national president has a bit of a history of knee-jerk reactions. The fact that the charter was yanked within hours of the video being posted has everything to do with that. The OU chapter has a right to appeal to the Fraternity Convention, which ironically happens this summer in the national president's home town. Having said that, from the social media posts I saw, there were plenty of actives and alumni who would be only too happy to line up for a chance to put foot to ass over at OU. The conduct on that video and that the chant was clearly an established 'thing' for that chapter are diametrically opposed to what our Fraternity stands for. Anyone who was chanting, laughing along, or otherwise supportive of that behavior should absolutely be expelled.

Whatever local victory the undergrads (and possibly their alumni) manage to get, if any at all, it will be moot unless the Convention can be convinced to restore their charter. In my opinion, without the university's support, their charter will never again see the light of day.

Like who? Please elaborate.

There are plenty of racist people in positions to hire.

OU has an outside attorney to investigate: http://m.tulsaworld.com/sportsextra/....html?mode=jqm

Do you have any actual examples?

Of racism in hiring? Countless studies, but here are a few:

http://www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas...acialbias.html

http://www.southernstudies.org/2013/...-for-raci.html

Or did you mean examples of people who hate blacks? I'm pretty sure you can find some links like that, but I ain't gonna do it from my work computer.

You're stating that there are plenty of people who seek out racists to hire. You do like to ride the raggety edge of self-righteousness... here, I think you may have overstepped.

In what sense? You don't think there are lots of people who see nothing wrong with the chant?

I'd personally love to think that anyone dumb enough to think it's okay to sing about lynching is also too dumb to be in a position of hiring authority, but that's not the country we live in.

I honestly don't think the SAE members thought the chant was okay. I think they were going for shock value for their dates and were just having a good time living dangerously by chanting stuff they knew would turn some heads. I'm just trying to get into the mind of a 19 year old privileged white kid (not too hard for me to do) and think that's more what was going on here. I'm not sure that's enough to make someone racist... but it certainly calls into question their judgment and character.

But that's not what you said. You said:

Which could be taken no other way than that you really think employers are going to seek these guys out because they appear to be racist.

Welp, Dr. Phil is doing a episode on this today. That's some serious publicity.

Kneejerk reactions vs. Costs...
 

It is *entirely* possible that both the President of the University of Oklahoma and the National President of Sigma Alpha Epsilon may be found to have taken actions which will ultimately when everything legal is straightened out, be found to be overreactions.

*However*, for University of Oklahoma, even *if* the University is ultimately found to unreasonably broken the housing contracts both with OU SAE and with the individual brothers *and* to have unreasonably expelled the two students without investigations, it will still be *cheaper* for the University to have done so in terms of losses to the school in reputation.

*Similarly*, even if Sigma Alpha Epsilon ultimately decides at their convention to not revoke the charter, from a *reputation* standpoint, the kneejerk reaction probably was the best thing for the Fraternity.

:confused:

I think there are people who will seek these guys out as free speech martyrs.

As a recently banned GCer said in a slightly different context in a now-closed thread:

Quote:

Here is the continuum: Dumb -------------- Insensitive ----------------- Racist Something can be considered dumb and insensitive without it being considered "racist". Something being dumb and insensitive is enough to axe it without question.

I think it's possible for someone to be stupid, insensitive or even ignorant and, as a result to engage in racist behavior without racism being so pervasive in who they are that deserve to be called "racists." Put another way, I sometimes (not always) think it's more helpful to talk about actions and attitudes being racist than about people being racists. Sometimes. (Which is why I put the remainder of Kevin's quote back in.)

That's why I'm always a little skeptical when I hear someone say something like "there's not a racist bone in my body." I'm sure there are people for whom that's true, but I don't think it's true of most of us. I know it's not for me. I certainly don't mean to be racist—I mean not be be—but sometimes I have to look honestly at myself and, perhaps at a certain attitude or reaction, and admit that it's not pretty and that it needs to change.

I don't think I'm a racist, but that doesn't mean I'm free of the subtle racisms pervading the society of which I am part of the majority. Personally, I think it's healthier to admit that and try to be on guard for it than to deceive myself into thinking that I don't have a racist bone in my body.

My sinuses are not happy at all right now, so apologies if this isn't making any sense.

The President of SAE (at least by law, I have no idea about any of SAE's internal machinations) shouldn't see any legal issues here. SAE is a private organization. The government doesn't guarantee you due process rights with regard to private entities.

As for Boren, he could give two craps about the Constitution here... and while that's probably something a lot of you support, but we can't say we have these rights unless we're willing to defend the worst of us. I anticipate the University will end up writing a check to someone if they file suit and it's not keeping Boren up nights.

Oh come-the-fuck-on, Kevin, stop being such a douchecanoe.

You're right. I shouldn't have used the word "probably."

:rolleyes:

Thank God, students at UGA are now safe from the horror of racist hoop skirts.

http://onlineathens.com/uga/2015-03-...aternity-video

One less thing.

Wow. That seems rather treating the symptoms and ignoring the problem. Besides, you and I both know sometimes you just need a good farthingale to feel like a pretty princess. ;)

Next up - corsets and petticoats have GOT TO GO. Who knew the problem was so easy to solve?

If we only thought to do this in the 1700's many nasty revolutions probably could have been avoided.

I mostly agree with you. We were all brought up in a racist system, and we either work to dismantle that or we don't. That's why things like internalized racism exist, and why "not seeing race" is still a problem.

But I don't think that minimizing the actions of men who sang about lynching really helps in any way. They don't actually hate black people? Great, but their actions are still reinforcing the status quo.

Absolutely. I hope I didn't come across as minimizing their actions; that was not my intent. I certainly think they should be criticized and held accountable for racist behavior. I just would focus on the racist behavior of the SAEs rather than focusing on the SAEs as racists.

Sigma Alpha Epsilon National Fraternity apologizes, unveils diversity plan to combat racial intolerance http://fw.to/6tsExBW

SMH. This will do nothing to solve any problem. As with everything, the people who need to hear it the most will listen the least. Get rid of the chapters that espouse racist views and quit acting like the fraternity makes the person.

+1

But it still wouldn't be good enough for some people and there is a reason these diversity workshops seem to be the go-to solution. It gives a sense of pro-activness.

How we made ‪#‎SAE‬ the most diverse frat in our Texas school's history http://wpo.st/PIP90 Sigma Alpha Epsilon Fraternity

Hoops skirts don't make people racist. But hoop skirts worn in the context of celebrating "Southern Roots" is a visual reminder of the Confederacy and all the things that go with it. So if you don't want to portray yourself as racist to outsiders, perhaps a little distance from costumes of that era would be a good idea. Too bad that people couldn't come to this realization on their own prior to this mandate.

Some folks are still brought up with this lionized notion of the way things used to be in the antebellum South. Other people simply don't care whether others see them as racist... and some actually would prefer to be seen as racist.

It's still quite common, for example to see the Stars and Bars in Oklahoma.. and until just a few years ago, it still flew over the state capitol.

First flag of the confederacy...
 

I do wonder how long someone could fly the original flag of the Confederacy before they'd be asked to take it down (the 7 or 9 or 11 or 13 stars in the Canton and the Red-White-Red 3 horizontal stripes).

I'd be surprised if 2% of the American populace would recognize it...

That original flag, not the flag that people typically think of as "the Confederate flag," is the Stars and Bars. What people think of as "the Confederate flag" is a variation on the battle flag.

While the Stars and Bars does carry some baggage purely by association with the Confederacy and what it stood for, it doesn't carry all the baggage that the battle flag does because it was the latter flag that was adopted and used extensively by the Klan, by white supremacists and by segragationists decades after the Civil War.

1) National SAE leader called for equality one year before racist video
Fraternity has stepped up efforts to weed out incidents like one in Oklahoma http://news.yahoo.com/national-sae-l...ory&soc_trk=tw

2) What's a Nice Jewish Boy Doing Leading a Fraternity Like This?
Brad Cohen Denies Broad Racism Charge After Oklahoma Video Flap
Read more: http://forward.com/articles/217024/w...#ixzz3V48B0ji5

Highland Park HS grad Levi Pettit to publicly apologize Wednesday for role in racist SAE video-Levi Pettit, the Highland Park High School graduate seen in the now-infamous University of Oklahoma SAE video chanting racial epithets, will make his first public remarks Wednesday at an event hosted by an Oklahoma state senator. http://share.d-news.co/0ML5hYC

This really rubs me the wrong way. He's making an announcement at a political event, invited by a politician. It's an apology not a political speech. Not to mention he didn't even apologize, his parents released a statement online. It's disgusting the publicity he's getting for being a racist. I also seriously question the judgement of the politician who's involved themselves in this.

Very strange that his apology is being made at Fairview Baptist. I'm not sure what the racial makeup of that church is, but it would really surprise me if they had many black members. This is a very politically active church. They've had members run for city council and for the state legislature. They are very Tea Party, very conservative and very politically active. They also play host to a Bible college where all of their leaders get to confer doctorates on themselves. I haven't been there, but would assume this is the whitest of the white churches around.

Fairview Baptist Missionary Church is a whole different story. I'm guessing the DMN doesn't know its OKC churches... because Fairview Baptist Missionary is a predominantly black church, but probably not the preeminent one in OKC.

His press conference is bullshit. Obviously he won't discuss how he learned it or anything like the. He also says he knew the world's were wrong "but never knew how or why".

Bullshit. I refuse to believe a upper class white kid from Dallas doesn't know how or why those words are bad. This whole press conference isn't about an apology it's about trying to fix his image. I don't understand why anyone is standing up with him.