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DrPhil 12-03-2014 01:53 PM
I don't see an "outrage card" in this thread.

With the historical and contemporary tendency for people in the USA and other societies to ignore and sometimes even condone marital rape and relationship rape, it isn't outlandish for people to be cautious of any appearance of ranking rape and varying societal and legal responses to rape. Many alleged victims are silenced because they didn't scream enough, didn't resist enough, aren't bruised and bloody enough, or their relationship with the alleged offender is too close to claim the person didn't deserve sex.

Kevin 12-03-2014 02:01 PM
The consequences for being convicted of rape are too severe to let anything more than beyond a reasonable doubt be the standard for conviction. Victims' rights have to be balanced with the rights of the accused.

33girl 12-03-2014 02:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low D Flat (Post 2301288)
Yes, consistent RISK. No place in the world is "totally safe" unless you're looking at events retrospectively. We can look back and say that there were zero rapes. But you don't know that 100% of your brothers would never rape anybody in the future. Maybe they're a lot lower risk than guys at some house that celebrates misogyny, but there's risk. Women live in a world with this risk. That's what I'm focused on.
NO. How many Greek parties did you attend as an undergrad?

There is risk in dorms, fraternity houses, off campus houses, on campus houses, apartments, trailers, bars, restaurants, hotel rooms. (I feel like I'm doing the rape version of Green Eggs and Ham) Women - AND men - need to be on their guard any time they are not 100% aware. And that includes being in an emotionally fragile state without drinking a drop of alcohol.

To say that there's a higher risk in one place than another creates a false sense of security when you are NOT in that place, and that's when bad things happen.

sugar and spice 12-03-2014 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal (Post 2301115)
Have there been credible studies done to measure the difference in assault rates on campuses without a Greek system?
References to this study have been making the rounds in the news in the wake of the UVA article. It studied only one campus, so it's impossible to extrapolate those results to the Greek population at large, but its results are worrisome regardless. According to the author of that study, other studies have found similar results. (Another previous study found less of a link, but that study is almost 20 years old at this point, and things may have changed.)

The plus side of that first study is that it suggests that when fraternities are exposed to proper rape intervention programming, the rates of sexual assault decrease to be comparable with the rates of non-Greek students--so it seems fairly obvious that rape intervention/bystander intervention should be included in fraternities' new member ed programs as soon as possible (and it probably wouldn't hurt to add them to sororities', either). That's an easy, not-incredibly-expensive way to be proactive about the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSteven (Post 2301133)
The legal folk should be able to address this.

Aren't there federal laws that state that the university must provide all students - regardless of sex - the right to equal campus activities? (I know the wording is off.) What I mean is, does a university that allows GLOs for one sex have to allow GLOs for the other sex? If so, then it seems that the university would not be able to ban male-only GLOs while allowin female-only ones.
Colorado has NPC sororities, but the only school-sanctioned fraternities there are cultural, right? They banned the IFC system around ten years ago (although it still continues to exist off-campus, obviously). If it was a legal problem, I imagine it would have come up at some point in the last ten years. Maybe the existence of cultural fraternities is enough to cover their asses legally? Don't know. Anybody who does, please weigh in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 2301220)
I think that depends on what we're talking about when we talk about rapes and sexual assaults for purposes of the comparison Kevin was drawing. Are we talking about any instance where alcohol abuse by both parties makes consent murkey or meaningless, or where consent is withdrawn? Or are we only talking about those instances where there is a deliberate and conspiratorial intent and plan to rape or assault, such as what has been described at UVA. I think when Kevin made the school shootings and terrorist attacks comparison, he was speaking only of the latter kinds of rapes and assaults, not date rape and the like.

Which is not say one is a problem and one isn't; not at all. But they're not exactly the same problem.
The UVA article included references to a study that suggested that the vast majority of those "murky" date-rape situations don't actually exist as such; in reality, they involve serial predators who prey on incapacitated women and then, if caught, paint the situation as a he said/she said misunderstanding in order to escape prosecution.

MysticCat 12-03-2014 03:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2301293)
With the historical and contemporary tendency for people in the USA and other societies to ignore and sometimes even condone marital rape and relationship rape, it isn't outlandish for people to be cautious of any appearance of ranking rape and varying societal and legal responses to rape.
Fair enough. I think that this is a topic, like so many others, where the individual lenses through which we view the discussion have the positive potential to add depth and a greater perspective, but also have the negative potential to inhibit understanding because we're not quite talking about the same thing, or we assume that others are starting from the same point we are. At worst, it leads to people talking past each other and to frustration that a reasonable discussion can't be had.

For me with the lens I bring to it, if I suggest that some rapes (or murders or any other crimes) are worse in degree than others, I do not mean to suggest at all that there are any that can be ignored or condoned—more that there is bad and really bad. So it is helpful for me to be reminded that there are understandable reasons why others might see red flags where none were intended by me.

Low D Flat 12-03-2014 05:49 PM
I went to lots of Greek parties as an undergrad (and as a high school girl, I'm sorry to say). But I'm not trying to generalize from my experience.

Quote:
To say that there's a higher risk in one place than another creates a false sense of security when you are NOT in that place, and that's when bad things happen.
Yes and no. This CAN create a false sense of security, but it doesn't have to. People need to keep their wits about them everywhere, but there's more risk dancing at a college kegger than volunteering at an elementary school. It's riskier to be around men than around women; it's riskier to walk down my street at 3 AM than at noon. Understanding that some places (like college parties) are particularly dangerous for women doesn't preclude 24/7 awareness.

honorgal 12-03-2014 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sugar and spice (Post 2301298)
References to this study have been making the rounds in the news in the wake of the UVA article. It studied only one campus, so it's impossible to extrapolate those results to the Greek population at large, but its results are worrisome regardless. According to the author of that study, other studies have found similar results. (Another previous study found less of a link, but that study is almost 20 years old at this point, and things may have changed.)

The plus side of that first study is that it suggests that when fraternities are exposed to proper rape intervention programming, the rates of sexual assault decrease to be comparable with the rates of non-Greek students--so it seems fairly obvious that rape intervention/bystander intervention should be included in fraternities' new member ed programs as soon as possible (and it probably wouldn't hurt to add them to sororities', either). That's an easy, not-incredibly-expensive way to be proactive about the problem.



Colorado has NPC sororities, but the only school-sanctioned fraternities there are cultural, right? They banned the IFC system around ten years ago (although it still continues to exist off-campus, obviously). If it was a legal problem, I imagine it would have come up at some point in the last ten years. Maybe the existence of cultural fraternities is enough to cover their asses legally? Don't know. Anybody who does, please weigh in.



The UVA article included references to a study that suggested that the vast majority of those "murky" date-rape situations don't actually exist as such; in reality, they involve serial predators who prey on incapacitated women and then, if caught, paint the situation as a he said/she said misunderstanding in order to escape prosecution.
Thanks for the links. I've read quite a bit of Lisak's research. (Last link). He's considered the gold standard. As you say, Lisak's conclusion is that a large majority of rapes are committed by serial rapists who use predatory behavior (vulnerability and/or alcohol) to facilitate their rapes. He also concludes that these predators are not amenable to education or "teaching them not to rape" and that there needs to be criminal prosecution and incarceration. He advocates that we teach the police and prosecutors how to do this effectively, by focusing not just on the small window of time during which the rape occurred, but by a thorough investigation of the accused.

Quote:
So what specifically should authorities do differently in these cases?

It’s challenging. But if you just take the data we have on serial offending, one of the clearest implications of this is that whenever you receive a report of a nonstranger sexual assault, that is a window of opportunity. When a case initially comes to your attention, there may be complications or difficulties, maybe no good leads. But one of the investigative avenues needs to be a comprehensive investigation of the alleged offender, and not just putting blinders on looking solely on the alleged 45-minute interaction between these two people.

If someone comes to law enforcement and alleges someone is pushing drugs, you do not just walk up to the drug dealer and ask him, Are you selling drugs? And if he says no, then just throw up your arms. What we do is investigate that guy, to find out if he’s dealing drugs, find out where he hangs out, where he lives, who knows him, who he talks to, who doesn’t like him, all of those things. This is what detectives do every day. We don’t expect to solve a drug case like that by doing a couple of interviews and walking out with a slam dunk. But we don’t apply that sort of basic investigative procedure to these sexual assault cases.

The starkest data from my study and the Navy study is that in both, over 90 percent of all sex assaults are perpetrated by serial offenders. Every report should trigger an investigation of that alleged offender. Who is this guy? What is his background? Talk to people who know him. Find out where he hangs out. When investigators do that, you’d be amazed by how many leads emerge. Very often, what starts out as an investigation of a single incident turns into an investigation of multiple victims and multiple incidents.
There are also other cases that involve intoxicated (not incapacitated) consensual sex or hookup sex where the accused obviously feels victimized after the fact. I don't know what percentage they are, but they certainly do exist and I would be interested in opinions on how they should be dealt with by colleges and/or law enforcement. Interesting that no one has commented on the example I gave from Swarthmore.

1964Alum 12-03-2014 06:34 PM
Well, I will comment on the lead-in example in the Swarthmore article. What I am seeing there is a remarkable lack of judgment. I can't even imagine getting into bed with a man -especially one with whom I have had sexual relations in the past- and being surprised that he would make moves on me. Or on the part of the young man for that matter. But then this "hook up" culture is completely foreign to me as well! Has campus sex become a physical activity like playing tennis or any other physical activity to get your rocks off? Purely recreational sex? Is there no relationship component to it? If sex has become so depersonalized as to be able to make objects of ones partners, is that a more fundamental problem? Add alcohol and drugs to the mix and you have potentially very volatile situations.

I don't understand, either, the goal of drinking/drugging to the point of blacking out. And yet that seems to be the goal of at least some binge drinking. Is this intentional lack of awareness so as to be able to avoid taking responsibility for ones actions?

honorgal 12-03-2014 07:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1964Alum (Post 2301312)
Well, I will comment on the lead-in example in the Swarthmore article. What I am seeing there is a remarkable lack of judgment. I can't even imagine getting into bed with a man -especially one with whom I have had sexual relations in the past- and being surprised that he would make moves on me. Or on the part of the young man for that matter. But then this "hook up" culture is completely foreign to me as well! Has campus sex become a physical activity like playing tennis or any other physical activity to get your rocks off? Purely recreational sex? Is there no relationship component to it? If sex has become so depersonalized as to be able to make objects of ones partners, is that a more fundamental problem? Add alcohol and drugs to the mix and you have potentially very volatile situations.

I don't understand, either, the goal of drinking/drugging to the point of blacking out. And yet that seems to be the goal of at least some binge drinking. Is this intentional lack of awareness so as to be able to avoid taking responsibility for ones actions?
I appreciate your comments. What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl. Even more astounding, that feminists are encouraging this kind of passive victim mentality in our next generation of women. It looks like a giant leap backwards.

1964Alum 12-03-2014 07:54 PM
It would seem that we were definitely more street-wise back in the day. We also had all those hormones making powerful calls on us, but we seemed to have handled them with more maturity and discretion. Even when we were first coming of age well before we entered college. This was one of the goals of sex ed in school when our youngest son was in high school. It went well beyond the mechanics of sex and consequences of same into setting parameters and boundaries for relationships. The boys as well as the girls were schooled in how to decline a sexual overture that were not ready for/didn't want. And this was to the relief of MANY of the males, many of whom were under pressure themselves. They also had an excellent education in drug and alcohol use, starting in the case of our youngest in about the third grade in the Episcopal Day School he attended. This continued into his public middle and high schools. Our four -now all adults with families of their own- pretty much confined themselves to serial monogamy once they entered into sexual relationships, both our three sons and one daughter. I can't imagine our daughter ever putting up with what young women are experiencing today!

OPhiAGinger 12-03-2014 08:38 PM
This story popped up on NPR today. Apparently the RS author is being criticized because she deliberately did not seek comment from the alleged coordinator ("Drew") of the date rape. The author explained that "Jackie" begged the author not to contact "Drew". Realizing how emotionally fragile "Jackie" still was even two years after the incident, the author and her editor decided to abide by Jackie's request. The criticism focuses on the fact that she did not disclose that decision in the RS article.

Thoughts?

honorgal 12-03-2014 09:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OPhiAGinger (Post 2301321)
This story popped up on NPR today. Apparently the RS author is being criticized because she deliberately did not seek comment from the alleged coordinator ("Drew") of the date rape. The author explained that "Jackie" begged the author not to contact "Drew". Realizing how emotionally fragile "Jackie" still was even two years after the incident, the author and her editor decided to abide by Jackie's request. The criticism focuses on the fact that she did not disclose that decision in the RS article.

Thoughts?
Richard Bradley has had the most extensive and in-depth coverage of the journalistic sub-story to the Rolling Stone story. His latest is quite interesting.

http://www.richardbradley.net/shotsinthedark/

The Washington Post, Hanna Rosin at Slate, Reason, and the New Republic are also covering. Hanna Rosin also has a podcast interview with the RS author.

When I first read the story, it struck me as improbable as it was presented. Not impossible, but improbable. The journalistic shortcuts and ensuing reaction of RS to criticism only add to that improbability. I would like to think that there are some missing facts that make the situation much more complicated/ambiguous, rather than an outright fabrication (ala Duke). IF it's been factually presented, it's not only a horrific gang rape, it's an almost unthinkable dereliction on the part of the grown ups in the room (the UVA administration) not to move heaven and earth to get the perps locked up where they belong. IF the allegations are true and I had a kid at UVA, I'd do everything I could to make sure all administrators with knowledge of the allegation lose their jobs.

That said, I'm very much aware of the FACT that the University is absolutely constrained by what they can and can't say to defend how they handled the situation. So, we've only heard one completely un-corroborated side of the story.
I'd like to wait until the facts come out fully before I pass final judgement.

Low D Flat 12-03-2014 10:40 PM
Quote:
What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl.
Same here. I don't get it. I have never in my life been too tired to push back if I didn't want to have sex with my boyfriend and he thought I had changed my mind. I can't even imagine being that tired.

1964Alum 12-04-2014 01:11 AM
In a story and filmed interview with one of the "friends" on a local TV station, the friend who was among those counseling Jackie not to report the incident or even go to the hospital for her injuries acknowledged that the story was true. Also that "Jackie" was still very fragile. She commended the support "Jackie" received from UVA in her healing, a departure from the stance of many there.

I was also hearing of these very shocking kinds of date rapes taking place at UVA as reported by the daughters of friends to their parents well before the RS article.

The President of the IFC there also painfully acknowledged that date rape within the fraternities there was a serious problem. I believe him and others.

robinseggblue 12-04-2014 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal (Post 2301314)
I appreciate your comments. What astounds me is the overwhelming passiveness of this girl. Even more astounding, that feminists are encouraging this kind of passive victim mentality in our next generation of women. It looks like a giant leap backwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low D Flat (Post 2301331)
Same here. I don't get it. I have never in my life been too tired to push back if I didn't want to have sex with my boyfriend and he thought I had changed my mind. I can't even imagine being that tired.
You may not understand it, but there is a freeze response, in addition to fight or flight. It is a biological response to a stressful/traumatic situation that is also seen in other animals.

http://www.lifecentre.uk.com/dealing..._response.html

http://www.joyfulheartfoundation.org...y-tonights-svu

Saying she was too "tired" makes me think she could have experienced tonic immobility (the freeze response) but is not able to articulate that more precisely.

honorgal 12-04-2014 02:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1964Alum (Post 2301339)
In a story and filmed interview with one of the "friends" on a local TV station, the friend who was among those counseling Jackie not to report the incident or even go to the hospital for her injuries acknowledged that the story was true. Also that "Jackie" was still very fragile. She commended the support "Jackie" received from UVA in her healing, a departure from the stance of many there.

I was also hearing of these very shocking kinds of date rapes taking place at UVA as reported by the daughters of friends to their parents well before the RS article.

The President of the IFC there also painfully acknowledged that date rape within the fraternities there was a serious problem. I believe him and others.
Are you sure that the student interviewed on local TV was one of the 3 friends from the RS article? I have not seen any journalists mention that and many are trying to track down the specific people involved in the story. Was there any attempt in the interview to question the friend about why she didn't urge That Jackie needed to go the ER immediately? I have to say, that part of the story certainly caused my antenna to go up. It's just hard to fathom that a friend would respond so utterly callously to someone who has just been gang raped and beaten by seven men. And then I thought maybe I just don't realize how morally bankrupt the average college student has become. I asked my daughter and some of her friends about it when they were home for Thanksgiving. They were all adamant that it's the craziest thing they've ever heard of, and can't imagine it happened remotely the way it was reported. Again, it doesn't mean it's impossible that it happened exactly as described in the article. But what parent would pay to have their daughter in that environment?

honorgal 12-04-2014 02:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinseggblue (Post 2301342)
You may not understand it, but there is a freeze response, in addition to fight or flight. It is a biological response to a stressful/traumatic situation that is also seen in other animals.

http://www.lifecentre.uk.com/dealing..._response.html

http://www.joyfulheartfoundation.org...y-tonights-svu

Saying she was too "tired" makes me think she could have experienced tonic immobility (the freeze response) but is not able to articulate that more precisely.
She then says she pulled up her panties and went to sleep. Maybe she was tired. But we can hypothesize just about anything, I suppose.

As a thought experiment, what would you do if you were the college administrator assigned to adjudicate her claim that she was raped? Would you expel the student and declare him a rapist based on the set of facts this girl presented. Some lesser punishment?

1964Alum 12-04-2014 02:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal (Post 2301343)
Are you sure that the student interviewed on local TV was one of the 3 friends from the RS article? I have not seen any journalists mention that and many are trying to track down the specific people involved in the story. Was there any attempt in the interview to question the friend about why she didn't urge That Jackie needed to go the ER immediately? I have to say, that part of the story certainly caused my antenna to go up. It's just hard to fathom that a friend would respond so utterly callously to someone who has just been gang raped and beaten by seven men. And then I thought maybe I just don't realize how morally bankrupt the average college student has become. I asked my daughter and some of her friends about it when they were home for Thanksgiving. They were all adamant that it's the craziest thing they've ever heard of, and can't imagine it happened remotely the way it was reported. Again, it doesn't mean it's impossible that it happened exactly as described in the article. But what parent would pay to have their daughter in that environment?
Yes. This was a very short film clip on a local station. Not yellow journalism in the least. People here were aghast as well and wanted to know if it was true. The young lady was shown but her name not given. She did say that she had joined an unspecified sorority. The interviewer did not press her on why she had responded to her friend the way she had. There was another short clip of an unnamed sorority member at UVA where she was asked why a young woman wouldn't report such a horror. She replied that the Freshmen (or First
Years as they are called there) wouldn't report it as they were afraid it would hurt their chances of getting into a sorority. The Inter Sorority Council there posted pretty quickly that reporting a rape wouldn't adversely affect the chances of receiving a bid in the least. If the film clip is still available from the local station and I can find it I will post it.

1964Alum 12-04-2014 02:58 AM
I did ask one mother and father with a daughter there why their daughter continued to go to UVA. They said that their daughter didn't want to leave because the specialized program of what she was studying wasn't available elsewhere. She is an upperclassman but I don't remember which year. They have been sick with anxiety, of course, even before the RS story. They insisted that she attend one of the safety on campus workshops and buy a can of pepper spray to carry with her wherever she goes. They were also planning on buying a police whistle to carry on a cord around her neck.

Our daughter, our oldest, got her Masters at UVA and is on the adjunct faculty teaching grad students. She hadn't personally heard of anything that has been going on there so asked some colleagues who teach undergrads. They confirmed for her that the severity of the problem there was true. And then got involved in the alumni response. Both as an alum and faculty member but also as a certified mediator. She has very grave concerns about the way these matters have been handled there.

DrPhil 12-04-2014 01:34 PM
Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.

honorgal 12-04-2014 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by robinseggblue (Post 2301365)
I can't say, I wasn't there. I was just presenting a possibility for those who expressed they didn't "understand" how a victim could not fight back in the case that she didn't want to have sex.

I don't understand how you're expecting anyone to judge a case from a couple of sentences printed in a newspaper article and I find that lacking in good sense. Who is anyone on here to judge what a proper punishment should be in a situation we are neither part of nor know the full facts of?
What an interesting response.

This is what we are all being asked to do with the Rolling Stone article. And the hundreds (thousands?) of other articles that insist our universities are failing their students with their responses.

Quote:
Your line of thinking seems to be: "she had slept with him before and she got into bed with him (how could she expect him not to want sex?), she said no but then didn't resist when he tried again...therefore not deserving of the classification of rape?" Ok. Cool story bro.
No, my line of thinking is this: It's an article that is clearly sympathetic to the alarm some are raising about rape culture at Swarthmore. Journalists doing this style of story usually lead with their most persuasive allegation, and it's clearly her story, we don't ever hear his side. So this is the view of the facts that best supports her rape claim. And that's all there is? Personally, I'd have a very difficult time expelling him from college and calling him a rapist, based on that evidence. Your mileage may vary, which is why I asked.

We can easily stipulate that these are the only facts an administrator has to base a decision on and that both students sound credible and believable at in-person interviews. its a thought experiment, remember?

Edited to add: just so I'm clear...My opinion does not then automatically mean I think this woman is lying. She may sincerely believe she was raped. But if this is rape, it happens in millions upon millions of bedrooms all across the country every night. (yes, Dr.Phil, I know, I know...its the patriarchy.)

honorgal 12-04-2014 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2301367)
Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.
At the end of the day, these are actual people, these young men and women, with a specific, individual set of facts to each allegation. And somebody(s) is having to decide. Can the discussion go beyond the sweeping generalities?

DrPhil 12-04-2014 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal (Post 2301370)
At the end of the day, these are actual people, these young men and women, with a specific, individual set of facts to each allegation. And somebody(s) is having to decide. Can the discussion go beyond the sweeping generalities?
What are you typing about?

honorgal 12-04-2014 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2301367)
Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

I don't believe anyone should be branded a "rapist" and punished without organizational investigations and, if it is a legal situation, the proper legal procedures.
At the end of the day, some allegations will, in fact, have to be dismissed. Won't they? Otherwise, what's the point of an investigation or legal procedures?

33girl 12-04-2014 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1964Alum (Post 2301347)
They insisted that she attend one of the safety on campus workshops and buy a can of pepper spray to carry with her wherever she goes. They were also planning on buying a police whistle to carry on a cord around her neck.
SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."

honorgal 12-04-2014 03:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2301375)
SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."
While I understand the point you are making and agree that this rape fact pattern is much more rare these days, I think Charlottesville would not be exactly comforted by that fact right now, due to the Hannah Graham abduction and murder. It's too fresh in people's minds.

DrPhil 12-04-2014 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal (Post 2301374)
At the end of the day, some allegations will, in fact, have to be dismissed. Won't they? Otherwise, what's the point of an investigation or legal procedures?
What are you typing about?

Dismissing allegations after a thorough investigation does not have to mean dismissing allegations solely because of narrow views regarding "rape".

honorgal 12-04-2014 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2301381)
What are you typing about?
Your words.

Quote:
Which gets back to even the appearance of dismissing rape allegations because they don't fit a particular description of "rape"; and the social and legal "ranking" of "rape".

DrPhil 12-04-2014 03:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal (Post 2301382)
Your words.
I know my words. What are you typing about?

honorgal 12-04-2014 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2301383)
I know my words. What are you typing about?
Your words. Are you saying you don't understand what I wrote in response to your words?

honorgal 12-04-2014 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2301381)
What are you typing about?

Dismissing allegations after a thorough investigation does not have to mean dismissing allegations solely because of narrow views regarding "rape".
Ah, you edited. No of course it doesn't HAVE to mean that. But we do have to have some general consensus as a society as to what constitutes rape. The vast majority of men and women would look at the Swarthmore fact set and think "if that's rape, then geez, I'm guilty". Are you advocating that we narrow it and call it rape, and expel the student as a rapist? If you are, why don't you just say so?

DrPhil 12-04-2014 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal (Post 2301386)
No of course it doesn't HAVE to mean that.

Good.

1964Alum 12-04-2014 07:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2301375)
SMH. This is the definition of not getting it. That is, still thinking of "rapist" solely as "stranger who lurks in the bushes and jumps out and attacks you."
This DOES happen! There was an incident on the news just the other day about a woman who was attacked just this way. Of course I "get it". Rape can and does take place in many, many different situations. But I also "get" having some common sense about what kinds of situations you expose yourself to as a woman. And what the attendant risks are. Also what self-protective measures we as women can take. IMO to think otherwise is very naive and unrealistic.

DrPhil 12-04-2014 07:31 PM
This is an unfortunate discussion.

I hope people realize that men also precipitate (which isn't victim blaming) their own victimization as well as precipitating many circumstances in which they are accused of crimes. Yet and still, people tend not to preach to men about the behaviors that increase the likelihood of such incidents.

But people love to preach to women. It is absolutely sickening.

1964Alum 12-04-2014 08:38 PM
Men absolutely precipitate their own victimization. There is plenty of need for serious examination all the way around. And it won't come overnight.

33girl 12-04-2014 08:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1964Alum (Post 2301400)
This DOES happen! There was an incident on the news just the other day about a woman who was attacked just this way. Of course I "get it". Rape can and does take place in many, many different situations. But I also "get" having some common sense about what kinds of situations you expose yourself to as a woman. And what the attendant risks are. Also what self-protective measures we as women can take. IMO to think otherwise is very naive and unrealistic.
I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.

honorgal 12-04-2014 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2301401)
This is an unfortunate discussion.

I hope people realize that men also precipitate (which isn't victim blaming) their own victimization as well as precipitating many circumstances in which they are accused of crimes. Yet and still, people tend not to preach to men about the behaviors that increase the likelihood of such incidents.

But people love to preach to women. It is absolutely sickening.
I don't see it as gender based. Of course men precipitate their own victimization, in lots of ways. Who doesn't think that?

It IS possible to view a victim (male or female) with empathy while simultaneously recognizing what they could do differently to avoid becoming a victim. How do humans ever learn from their mistakes otherwise if it's out of bounds to mention that?

Personally, I know I "preached" to my sons way more than I ever did my daughter. Their childhood and college years were filled with "please don't eat the daisies" moments where my imagination failed to keep up with the things they could think up that could put their lives in danger.

DrPhil 12-04-2014 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honorgal (Post 2301411)
Who doesn't think that?
Millions of people around the world. The average man college student doesn't get a lecture about safe behaviors to reduce the likelihood of violent victimization. The average woman college student gets tons of lectures.

All discussions of sexual assault and rape are gender based. That is highlighted in many posts in this thread.

1964Alum 12-04-2014 09:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2301409)
I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.
Not at all. Both parents are recently retired US Diplomats and as such have been in many very different (and often dangerous) parts of the world and in many different circumstances. Mother went over with daughter her normal routine and identified with her vulnerabilities. One glaring one was walking home to her apartment by herself in the dark after a late class. She got herself a bike to be able to travel at a greater speed then added pepper spray and a police whistle on a cord. No guarantees of complete safety, but she does have some defenses in place. Predators of all kinds prey on the vulnerable, as we know.

honorgal 12-04-2014 10:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 33girl (Post 2301409)
I didn't mean you, I meant if the mother thinks her daughter is covered solely by having a police whistle and pepper spray, she's deluding herself. All women need to know how to combat the physical, mental and emotional forms of assault.
Yes, this.

But it's also necessary to be able to assess risk with some semblance of accuracy. With our 24/7 news cycle that loves to sensationalize, people have a hard time with this. Remember the recent Ebola frenzy? And a few years ago it was the shark frenzy. In the 80's it was the daycare child molester frenzy. And we've had the rape crisis frenzy for a while. Rape is a problem, and not just on college campuses. But hysteria doesn't lead to effective policy decisions to combat it.


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