I have never understood teachers who approach education this way. All it does is make difficult subjects seem out of reach and discourage students from trying. Good luck to Halo and Youngest!

Halo's Calc grad has officially bumped him to third... by .0005. It would have been very cool to hear him speak at graduation, but I'm still very proud of him. I think he's got himself mentally prepped as he's been pretty sure since the middle of last week that this would be the result.

Congratulations! Third is still pretty great! My HS eliminated valedictorian and salutatorian in part because the margins were so slim. Basically the class president and everyone in the top one percent of the class gets to speak.

Halo and Hypo are superstars! I don't even know them and I'm super proud!

In my school the speaker was voted on from the 4.0's. There were usually a handful. And oddly we didn't have AP classes at my school (I've never figured out that one), so 4.0 was the top you had to worry about.

Michigan's financial aid package came in bringing it to about $4000 less a year than Kalamazoo. HOWEVER, that's all grant money- based on income, not guaranteed to remain the same every year for the next four years - especially when Hypo is done with college. Kalamazoo's scholarship is guaranteed as long as he maintains a 2.5 and very little of that package is grant money. What do you do about that??? Realisitcally, in 3 more years, I could be full pay for Michigan.

Wait, is Kalamazoo's package primarily loans?

No guaranteed scholarship cash to UM? Is there any chance that Hypo would immediately head to grad school after undergrad? If the scholarship at Kalamazoo is guaranteed with a 2.5 that's incredible. Eldest and Middle needed to keep somewhere in a 3.2-3.4 range to keep their scholarships.

Eldest's dream school was Michigan, and was admitted with a $5K scholarship and some grants, etc five years ago. He wrote the financial aid department and told him that and that other schools offered a full ride scholarship and asked if they could do anything else for him? Of course the economy in Michigan five years ago was lousy and he was OOS but perhaps since Halo is in state they could do more for him? Would think it was worth him asking if he wants to go to Michigan?

Oberlin has waitlisted him and he is crushed. The assumption is that if he didn't get into Northwestern or Oberlin, there's no way Brown will happen. My heart is hurting for him. His sister got her dream school. He is going to accept his spot on the wait list, but I told him we have to proceed with decisions as if it was a rejection and then deal with the change if it changes.

U of M's only scholarship money was the Michigan Competitive Scholarship which he'll get at any Michigan college. The rest was U of M grants. Kzoo gave him a decent scholarship- $84K over 4 years if he keeps a 2.5. There was a Perkins loan, a Federal direct subsidized loan, and work study in that package with $11K for me to cover.

U of M gave money in grants, plus the typical Federal direct subsidized loan and also work study. It leaves $7K for me to pay, but like I said, if our financial situation changes, those grants change too.

I really wanted him to escape this awful state of no opportunity. I'm regretting not making him apply more places. Big time regrets about that.

Aw, poor Halo. That sucks.

Hopefully, he'll have so much next fall, he won't even remember this.


I'll keep my fingers crossed that a spot opens up for him at Oberlin.

FWIW, in my years as a senior (h.s.) homeroom teacher and English AP teacher I found that there is no real rhyme or reason to admissions. Students wouldn't get a safety school, but then got into their dream schools. Students that would seem to be a lock to get into their dream schools - didn't. I swear, sometimes they just roll dice to decide! Brown may yet come through - here's hoping!

Oberlin is NOT need blind so that may have something to do with it too. I can't imagine a wait list kid gets a very good financial aid package.

This whole process has become very discouraging.

This is true. In almost 20 years in secondary education, there is no pattern. I have seen kids get in places I didn't think they stood a chance and have seen kids be rejected from in-state schools once considered fall backs.

At least he has options. He can always transfer, if he gets somewhere and doesn't feel like it's a good fit.

Is he bringing in enough AP or dual credits to make his college stay shorter? Would summer school help alleviate some of the financial burdens?

Laugh or cry, laugh or cry.
 

Today, we laugh!

http://www.theonion.com/articles/how...s-works,35625/

Hang in there, it's not over yet.

I wouldn't make that assumption at all...IME, Brown, of all schools, tends to do its own thing when it comes to admissions.

Of all colleges to be in the main photograph--Brown!

I didn't realize that Oberlin was need-aware but it's not totally surprising.

It's time to face this like recruitment. Michigan and Kalamazoo have both been showing him lots of love- sending us stuff almost every day. These two schools want him to attend. Now we just have to get him to understand that, feel the love, and figure out which one he will make work (even if he isn't enthusiastic about either). This is why we have safeties, right? Both schools still have accepted student days he can attend over Easter break. He has refused to do any formal tours or anything at both schools until now because he really didn't expect to go to either.

Hypo is more emotional about all of this than anybody else.

I cannot find his Kzoo financial aid letter anywhere. What the heck did I do with that??? Ugh.

I'm sorry he did not get into his dream school. I also did not, and ended up at a (not very competitive state) school that turned out to be just right for me. I think your attitude about viewing this through a recruitment lens is spot on.

Michigan is nothing to sneeze at and I'm sure he'd have a great 4 years there. It's hard to get excited about in-state schools. I remember not being excited about University of Illinois. It seemed like a boring choice. Now I look at it and see that I would have had a great 4 years there.

And if you want him to find his way out of Michigan make sure he does internships with companies outside of Michigan. My much younger engineer brother interned 3 summers for Chevron and was hired by Chevron in New Orleans. The company has since taken him to Houston and now Jakarta. He got out of his backwater town!

I was accepted to my "reach" schools (Pitzer, Bard, and another one I can't remember because it was 7 years ago...) and wound up attending my 2nd safety, which was also 2nd to last on my list of colleges in order of preference.

That 2nd safety was UC Santa Barbara, a huge public university that initially seemed totally overwhelming and "not me" (I came from a very small high school with a graduating class of 29 and lots of individual attention). I ended up there because the financial aid from the private schools was either nonexistent or inadequate, and the affordable schools I had to choose from were all large public universities (UC Santa Cruz and Oregon were on the list too) that I'd had as safeties.

What made the biggest difference for me was visiting the campus. I was determined to find SOME way to pay for private school, but I spent a week in Santa Barbara and a full day on campus with a tour, etc. and that sealed the deal. I'd really encourage your son to visit both Kzoo and Michigan and spend some time on campus, really trying to imagine himself there--it may completely change his mind.

I'll note that UCSB was not all roses, and though it didn't fulfill all of my hopes/expectations for a college, I made it work and created a wonderful experience for myself. Greek life helped a lot :)

I'll be crossing my fingers for you guys for an acceptance and great aid package from Brown!

Just a thought, but with respect to getting out of Michigan, there is always the possibility of a year abroad for a different exposure and experience. A good friend's daughter was "state-stuck" if you will, and the junior year transformed a satisfactory college experience into an amazing one.

I guess I didn't realize Oberlin was that competitive. Poor Halo. This whole process stinks. Did you say Brown announces today? I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Two of my fellow professors are a married couple -- they have a bright daughter who has also applied to highly selective schools. It's looking like she'll attend Michigan, strictly from a cost perspective. She actually got into MIT and the Univ. of Chicago, but no aid was offered, so it's just not financially doable. I feel bad for her, because she got in, but they just can't afford those schools without any financial aid.

On the bright side, she wants to go through recruitment, and our Beta chapter is recolonizing this fall! :D

Yes, today is Ivy day- the day the admissions portals crash and so does College Confidential.

The only thing he doesn't like about Michigan is the size. It's ginormous. There are three times as many people at that school as live in our city. He will have classes that are larger than his whole graduating class now. That feels intimidating to him. But, he's a huge Michigan football fan and is totally into having school spirit so I know he would embrace that.

Well, you know that at schools of that size, the trick is to find your community within the community. Fraternity, clubs, study groups will all help to shrink the school for him. It's unfortunate that the year you need the small supportive classes is when you get the 500 student lectures. It gets better!

This.

Yes, and his major is in the Residential College at Michigan which is how you can make that school a little smaller. Kids in the RC all live in the same dorm two years in a row. A lot of their classes are in that dorm itself and are smaller. They have foreign language immersion meals during which time they can only speak the language they are studying with other students studying that language also. It's arts oriented, but the Social Policy and Theory major is only available in the RC.

I don't think he'd fit in with Greek Life at Michigan because they party pretty hard and that's not his scene. He still considers himself straight edge.

Waitlisted at Brown. *sigh*

He's actually thrilled to death. I guess it is better than a flat out rejection to him.

Well, good for him! That is much better than a rejection. And you never know...many of their admitted kids will have several great offers to choose from. Now he needs to follow up with the "I'm still really, really interested" pitch and tell them about his BPA and Quiz Bowl state-level finals...do they know about his Eagle Scout status?

That's a great attitude to have about it.

I'm sorry he didn't get accepted to his dream school, but it sounds like he's got the right attitude. You never know - he may still get to go.

So true! My high school's valedictorian from last year agreed to attend one school (don't remember which), then got off of the waitlist to Cornell and is now enrolled there. It does happen.

Wooooo! This is great. Can he stay on more than one wait list?

He can stay on more than one wait list. I have a few ideas and want to run them by him. He was obviously close or they would have flat out rejected him. One idea is a gap year- IF and only IF he can come up with something that would really help him grow personally and increase his chances. Then he would reapply ED for next year.

The wait list instructions say that he can obtain an additional letter of recommendation IF it highlights additional information that was not previously available. He did email the admissions counselor a few times with updates for BPA and Quiz Bowl but there are some things that I noticed are not on his application anywhere- like his parts in the school musicals this year. He mentioned briefly his involvement on the school board curriculum committee but perhaps a more robust description of what he is doing and how he got there would help.

He heard they were talking about moving back to semesters from trimesters. They had moved to trimesters just when Hypo was starting high school. It allows the kids 1.5 more credits a year for electives. When Halo heard about it, he was organizing a group of kids to attend a school board meeting to plead a case for staying on trimesters. The assistant principal found out he was doing that and suggested that he be on the curriculum committee as a student member so he could really give his in depth input. To me, that shows the kind of initiative and spirit that Brown appreciates. I believe the assistant principal would write a letter further explaining Halo's ability to effect change for something he believes in.

He and I will talk tomorrow. I don't know about the gap year idea. I think he'd have to find something really incredible to do with that year. Something that would make him really really stand out. Could an 18 year old start a non-profit for something he's interested in? I don't know... not sure what he could do, but he would have to have a good start on it by October when he reapplied.

He could also go to Michigan or Kalamazoo and take advantage of some really awesome opportunities for research and political involvement and aim for grad school at Brown.

I'm going to talk as an enthusiastic Wolverine here -- from out of state -- so please understand my bias. I also volunteer as a recruiter for UM in my area, so I go to college fairs and talk to wild-eyed, panicking 16-year-olds (and their equally wild-eyed parents) about Michigan on a regular basis.

I always tell them that it's not my job to get them to go to Michigan. It's my job to tell them the truth, and let them decide whether it sounds good, because it does no one any good for them to pick the wrong school because some recruiter at a college fair or alumni event was funny and enthusiastic and convincing. Of COURSE I'm enthusiastic; I went there and had a good experience. But if it's not the right place for them, that's more than okay; Michigan will survive.

Yes, the place is huge. It absolutely is. But that, for me, was one of its biggest benefits. There are tens of thousands of students ... but it's not like you have to pack onto a single elevator with them all every day and hope everybody used deodorant. Instead, you get the benefits of a place with world-class resources that are designed for 25,000 students. That? Is awesome. Whatever it is that you want to do, no matter how out-of-the-box -- or downright bizarre -- there likely is someone there to teach you, AND at least a few people who want to do it with you. Want to build a solar car? Want to learn precision figure skating? Want to create your own internship with the football team? Want to work with a MacArthur genius grant winner? Want to do research with groundbreaking software that's the first of its kind in the world? Want to play Capture the Flag on the Diag in the middle of the night? (Not that I ever did that last one. Okay, I did. But I did the one before that, too. And the one before that. And the one before that. And friends of mine did the first two.) The place has the resources for you to do it, and you meet incredible people in the process.

Speaking of resources, because the place is built to cater to a large group, there are all of the resources you could ever want, IF you go to them. Indeed, no one will hold your hand. No one will come to your dorm room and ask why you haven't been to class in 3 weeks. But as far as I'm concerned, that is a feature, not a bug. I mean...welcome to life. If I don't show up to work, I get fired, not patted on the back. However, if you walk into the office of your professor -- usually a world-renowned subject-matter expert -- or the financial aid office or the counseling center, they're there waiting to help you.

Then, once an unfamiliar place becomes familiar, that is part of what makes it get small. That means that ANY school gets familiar and small quickly...and a smaller school doesn't always have anywhere to go. If you NEED an insular community, that can be great. But does he need that? Or is he just concerned about being somewhere unfamiliar? There are 6,999 other freshmen. They are ALL looking to meet people, find their group, and figure out who they are. He won't be the only one. You'd be AMAZED how quickly it happens that the "huge university" becomes a place where you can't avoid seeing that one annoying ex-boyfriend. (He's married to someone else now with 3 kids, and he STILL emails every so often.)

No one else from my graduating class went to UM. I did not know a soul on that campus when I stepped on it in August 1993. I even had a bumpy few months when one of my roommates and I didn't get along. But I met people who are STILL some of my dearest friends on my freshman dorm hall, at my job, at my research projects, and in classes. I would choose the place all over again, size be darned; the bigger the school, the more awesome people there are to meet.

I'll shut up now. But I do want to note that sometimes I think kids from Michigan don't understand the awesome resource they have right there in their own state. For them, it's always been there; whatever, it's no big deal. I'm from Washington DC, where there is no state university (I had to pay out-of-state-tuition everywhere), and again, I go to college fairs in DC, Maryland, and Virginia, the last two of which have excellent state schools, and yet the kids (many of whom have parents who went to Maryland and UVA!) are falling over themselves to go to Michigan. If I could have gone to UM at in-state prices? Dude.

I hope he gets into Brown. As I mentioned upthread, I have friends who went there, and it also is a unique and fantastic place. But if he doesn't, seriously, have him look at UM with fresh eyes -- not against Brown or Northwestern, but as its own entity.



(That was the long version of my "But it's such a big school!" college-fair speech.)

I hear really good things about Kalamazoo. It would position him really well for grad school. He could go to a lot of places from there. They also do a lot of study abroad and that would be a great thing to do.

You're right GammaGirl, the kids here do take Michigan for granted. It is right in their backyard and a lot more in state kids are accepted there. It is typically the place the high achieving kids from this high school go. Very few even attempt anywhere else. For that reason, it doesn't seem like that big of a deal to them. They don't understand the reputation it has. Hypo actually understands it now that she is away. She has said in conversation that she had to decide between Michigan and Barnard and people say "Wow! Michigan!" She really didn't get it before.

It's interesting to read the perspectives people have about your state and the schools there. I'm a life-long Michiganian and I've traveled to most corners of our country. I wouldn't live anywhere else. Every state is about what you make of it. I grew up in MSU's backyard and now live just north of Grand Rapids. I love it over here and enjoyed growing up in mid-Michigan.

And as a Spartan all I can say is that I hope he can take off his familiarity breeds indifference glasses and see what an opportunity he has to go to Michigan. Like any good Spartan, I despise Michigan but even I know that kids from around the country would chop off their right arm for the opportunity to attend there.

I had 150 in my graduating class and I couldn't wait to get to a big university. So nice to not have everyone know your business and have some privacy to choose your own path! :)

We are signed up for accepted student days at Michigan and Kalamazoo. He is going to compose a letter to the admissions counselor at Brown and inquire about the best way to supply the additional letter of recommendation. We discussed who he will ask to write that letter and what kind of information it should include (they want "new" information). He completely rejects the idea of a gap year (his dad will be relieved). He does not reject the idea of going to Brown for grad school!

After discussing all this for the first time with him (he's been at his dad's house this week), he said "I'm scared to go anywhere." I said "That's because it is scary. I was terrified too." He said "I think I'm going to hate it no matter where I am." I said "I hated my first semester. Everything was unfamiliar. I didn't know people. I didn't where to go to get things done and I hadn't found my 'tribe' yet. I wanted to go home. But the second semester it all started to change. I found my people and then I didn't want to leave." He just nodded.

You Kalamazoo fans please don't take this the wrong way but it is not an elite college like Williams, Davidson or Carleton. A UM degree is worth much more just because of its name and reputation. On the positive side, a Brown waitlist student could be a real star at Kalamazoo but just another student at UM.
As far as college visits go, I visited a lot of colleges when I was a HS senior and looking back on it all you see is a bunch of buildings, which tells you nothing about what being a student there is really like and if the college is a good fit for you as an individual.
Best of luck to you what ever you decide.