Yep.

Did it work for any of them?
________

Just tagging on to this one, because we didn't have 10 but we would occasionally have a few. WE did have one who went through almost the whole NM period and it was not a well... mature... parting of ways on her part. Somehow she didn't end up with a bid the second time around.

Lesson to PNMs going around again on a second year: Chapters talk to each other.

I appreciated the comment that getting cut from top chapters early on and not being strung along allows PNM's to give other chapters a chance and be won over by them. This is a good thing. However what RFM prevents is allowing some of the top chapters from giving some of the PNM's another chance to win them over.

The chapter's only going to be able to take quota either way. Odds are they'll still be cut, just sooner rather than before pref. And if you have such a high interest, it's not always that the PNM wasn't "on" enough. GPA below a certain point? Not gonna get invited back even if you're Miss Amazing.

I think it says a lot more about how PNMs think that they are, individually, perfect for XYZ (and unwilling to consider that they could possibly be a PQR)

So yes, in some ways the PNMs could lose out if they have a closed mind. But as has been pointed out, few people who get those 'less desirable*' bids say "I wish I hadn't stuck it out" while far more say "I wish I hadn't depledged."

*to the individual PNM only.

I don't want anyone to think that all these girls who are cut early on and reluctant to look at other groups are jerks or "entitled". Sometimes they're the sweetest, most positive girls around, girls who would be great members for any group.

However, some have multiple family members in the groups that cut them and neither they nor their families are expecting the cuts. Back when their mom/grandmom/whoever was rushing, there were fewer legacies and it was no doubt easier for a girl to pledge her legacy group. Particularly if this is the oldest daughter and the family has been out of the loop Greekwise (or even in it, for that matter), it can be a huge shock if she's dropped and this girl who has been hearing Alpha Beta stories all her life won't know what to do next, especially if relatives are telling her to drop out and wait for COB. After all, few Panhellenics do any kind of pre-rush parent education; the info goes to the PNMs.

There's also this situation that I see a lot: a big group of girls--outstanding but not feeling 'entitled' in any way--will rush together at a school and say, "Wouldn't it be cool if we could be ABs or CDs or (some group) together?" And they go through rush and suddenly 2 or 3 out of the 10 girls don't have the option of any of the maybe 8 out of 16 groups they liked and all they can see is their friendships coming to an end and here they're having to make a snap decision. Sometimes these girls drop and sometimes they re-rush the next year. Sometimes they transfer because all they've heard is how great is is to be an AB and they want to be one too, not understanding that sisterhood is everywhere. Sometimes they pledge one of their remaining groups and have a great 4 years and sometimes they pledge and then depledge because they keep seeing their friends having a wonderful time in the groups they wanted.

Again, these girls aren't usually jerks or snots. They're teenagers, they're confused, and they only wanted to be with their friends. They may recognize that their Rho Chi is only another college kid and be unwilling to trust her and FWIW, they shouldn't trust some of them; their training on some campuses is short and worthless and the Rho Chis may be composed of girls who aren't warm and wise but they just wanted to get out of recruiting again.

To groups who have girls who are reluctant new members: the best thing you can do is get them outstanding big sisters. I have seen even girls who were enthusiastic new members at first get uncaring bigs and the NM gets left by the wayside and she finally drops.

And sometimes it's the mother that's the "jerk" because she won't allow the daughter to pledge a chapter she really really loves because mom considers it "sub-standard."

As far as family, that's basically what entitlement is. Witness the trolls on this site who pull the "my grandma founded not only the chapter but the entire sorority." That's the extreme, but growing up with "Alpha Beta" stories and assuming you will be an Alpha Beta because of your family is pretty much the definition of entitlement.

Teenagers are shallow, we don't expect them to be super discerning adults. But if the only people "hurt" are PNMs who are unwilling to consider other groups... then we're probably doing pretty good as far as a recruitment system.

But it's less about family legacy or "lets be ABC" and more "If I'm not DEF I'm not going to be anything." And those girls are out there.

And thus my utter disgust at the tier system (campus wide or nationally :rolleyes:) and the women who perpetuate it.

I've mentioned it before in this thread, but I think it's worth mentioning again:

Making quota is very different from retaining new members.

Oh, some PNMs are entitled little jerks. Others, however, are regular girls who sincerely believe with their parents that they can pledge their legacy chapter; the legacy chapter may not even be one of those that tons of girls are desperately trying to get. They just want to do what the family did. When they don't have that option, they honestly don't know what to do next and the RC may or may not be able to guide them wisely.

What violetpretty said is true, though, about guys pretty much determining the tier levels. I have told many alums what she said in the past day or so and they agreed that she hit the nail on the head.

Sure, but they're still entitled, even if they're not over the top about it. I'd say most manage to get over the disappointment and move forward.

Even if, and it's a big if in my opinion, guys "determine" the tiers, the women perpetuate it, particularly when it "benefits" their chapter. And guys don't really have a hand in the national "tier system" nor do they explain the mothers we get on here who influence, push, or outright demand that their daughters not join a particular chapter. (or man the "send pics so I know our chapter at ABC University is worth my daughter joining" people.)

We can't just push it off on the guys and act like we don't have anything to do with it. It's harmful for the Greek system and should be something that we work on with PNMs and chapters alike.

Though I'm very involved in the recruitments of many campuses these days, I don't know if the tiers (yeah, yeah some people hate them but they're still perceived) exist that existed years ago. At Auburn, for instance, many people used to look down on the "quad sororities" because they were newer groups and thus located in the older and worse dorms. Then 30 years ago, everyone moved up to the Hill and now for a year, they've all had more or less equal new housing. Also, determining of quota is now done right before prefs (rather than after second parties) so the days of some groups taking huge pledge classes and the rest taking much smaller ones are past and that had a lot to do with perceptions too.

RFM has much to do with changing perceptions too. Now that most sororities on many competitive campuses are taking quota, no one can say, "The Mu Mus only got 50 and the rest of us got 70 so they stink." Even the most naive of rushees back in the day could look around and see that her pledge class was noticeably smaller than the others and begin to wonder if she'd made the right decision. And others in her pledge class were wondering too and before you knew it, half the pledge class was gone.

It would be great if we could educate parents about the changing world of NPC recruitment but other than some lip service paid to "What is a Legacy?" in the occasional parent brochure and on sorority websites, it's not happening and I don't see how we'd reach most parents anyway.

Yes, there are PNM's who think they belong in a certain chapter.
Yes, PNM's can lose out by having a closed mind.
Yes, few who get the less desirable chapter regret joining.

The chapter will only be able to take quote either way. This applies to every group of girls who goes to every round. I am speaking about qualified PNM's who get cut due to high release figures that having been given another chance could have won the sorority over. You say they'll be cut anyway. If they're qualified, giving them an extra chance to win the sorority over could only help their chances.

But it's the sorority that decided that 100 other PNMs were more qualified. It's the same with a job interview or a college application.

If a campus decides to add an extra non-cutting round to recruitment so everyone gets to meet at least twice before the cutting starts, that's one thing. But there's nothing more special or qualified about any one girl who gets cut from ABC than another girl. Barring being dropped for grade reasons, shouldn't you argue that every girl should get to meet again? Because every girl will think she deserves another shot.

And isn't that why RFM was introduced? To help curb any unrealistic expectations that ABC really wants YOU when they just kind of like you and really want 50 other girls instead. And to make sure that "YOU" get to look at as many other sororities as possible instead of listing going back to ABC every round when you're not going to be bid.

/General "yous" all around.

That's the problem with all of these "buts". They are all such small percentages that you just can't account for them when you are dealing with such large numbers of PNMs. So a girl might have gotten Tier 1 group to like her enough to offer a bid if she could have held on to party 3 in the old system, but that extra chance would have meant that 25 other women where led on for three parties and dropped groups that would have given them a bid just so that one girl could get her dream bid. The greater good says you let all 26 get released so that they all find spots in "lesser" chapters.

It doesn't matter if you make quota if only half your new members show up to bid day. The other new members see that. They also see how upset some of their new sisters are to be there on bid day when they do show up. The perception is always going to be there on competitive campuses with highly entrenched tier systems.

If you are an alumna who helps out with recruitment, thank you. But please understand that it doesn't make you an expert on what's actually happening at parties and in selection. The actives are the ones dealing with a lot of things and behaviors from pnms and their families that alumna are completely insulated from. The entitled princess pnm is very much alive and well.

I don't know who that's directed at, but I certainly do agree that there are lots of entitled princesses floating around. I also think that saying that RFM doesn't help anyone is overstating things too. On HIGHLY competitive campuses, you may have chapters who make quota but only half of the girls show up, but I venture to say that that is NOT the norm. I think that there are many weaker chapters out there that have really benefitted from this system. From my experience, though, the middle of the road chapters benefit the most from RFM with the largest classes. At Towson, which has a moderately competitive recrutement, the most "popular" groups have a harder time making quota because they cut those margins so close and fight for the same women, but the more inclusive groups are raking in large numbers of women who STAY. Another example of how every school is different so trying to make a generalized statement of the success of RFM is difficult.

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. It's just that there seems to be a bit of disbelief about entitled pnms coming from some alumna, and I can tell you that being on the front lines as an active is a very different experience. I've spoken extensively about our experiences with many of my sorority member relatives who represent several generations of sisters at many of the same chapters. The attitudes and behaviors we are seeing now (from pnms and families) are very different than even a decade ago. This is my generation and yes, even I can step back and see some things are seriously twisted.

I didn't say RFM doesn't work. I just don't think it's the pancea so many want to think it is. It probably works better at some schools than others.

All I know is what I am familiar with, which is highly competitive schools with very entrenched tier systems. From my perspective, RFM helps those "middle of the road" groups the most because they get to see more women who might have dropped them quickly had they been held on for additional rounds by "top" chapters. The top groups will always get who they want, even when they are fighting it out for the same "most desireable" pnms. That's really the way things have always been. If a top group doesn't make quota, it's so easy to snap to quota out of the pretty perfect princesses who dropped out of recruitment when they were dropped from the top groups. Sadly, that group of pnms is usually full of good candidates, so if you're pulling from them for your last few bids it's not a huge issue. I just don't think RFM does that much for struggling chapters, at least at campuses where someone would rather not be Greek at all than wear the letters ABC. I can't even dream of how demoralizing it would be to not have a large portion of your new members show up for bid day and to watch your new member class progressively dwindle through the weeks leading up to initiation.

I agree, but I don't know what else you can do to change that. RFM may have to be changed for those schools. Then again, does it hurt anymore to have a pledge class of 50 with only 20 showing up on bid day or a pledge class of 20 on bid day when quota is 50? I guess in the end with reaching quota, there is still the possibility that some of the girls may show up. Either way you still end up with 20.

From someone experienced with the old system, the weak chapter on campus doesn't feel so hot when you pick up 10 people on bid day when quota is 35, either. It hurts no matter how you work the system. I had at least three women in my Rho Chi group that got cut from all the groups on campus but this group, and I talked them all into giving that group a chance. Crying PNMs on Day 3 of recruitment right before Prefs are tough, especially since they really don't have anymore time to really get to know their only remaining chapter.

BTW, I think that chapter might have survived with a little help from RFM.

And back when mom or grandmom was rushing, a Coke cost a nickel and you could buy a car for $500. Times change. If people are too stupid to realize that - and you'd have to be living in a cave to not know there are more students than EVER, including when the baby boomers went through - then it's not my fault they passed their stupid on to their kids and gave them false hopes.

And wouldn't it be cool if these girls, who already have the foundation of a strong friendship, would join one of the chapters that's not at total or hitting quota and turn it around? Strangely enough*, that's rarely the scenario. However, guys do it all the time. Bunches of guys from the same HS join the same group or start a new one and completely revitalize the fraternity and/or the whole Greek system. It would be nice if girls were brought up to believe that they could achieve the same sort of thing.

* Heavy dripping sarcasm.

You can't really use the word "qualified" (outside of being a full time female student at the college in question) when it comes to NPC recruitment. There are too many intangibles. There are lots of girls who look good on paper but are trainwrecks in real life (and vice versa).

The purpose of RFM is not to help PNMs' chances at top chapters. The purpose of RFM is to maximize Panhellenic membership. Panhellenic membership is maximized when ALL chapters are making quota or coming close. If "top" chapters DON'T make those heavy cuts after round 1, PNMs choose to cut the "bottom" chapters, and then there is a huge disparity in the available PNM pool for "top" and "bottom" chapters. Additionally, there will be more women bidless because chapters can only take quota (plus maybe a few QAs). So, small chapters not making quota plus lots of unmatched women, all so PNMs can "have another chance" at a "top" chapter.
Kind of. Every campus has "top", "middle", and "bottom" chapters. I think it's more a matter of how awful a "bottom" chapter is perceived to be. It's not like all "bottom tier" chapters (even at competitive schools) are experiencing poor retention/not making quota. They might be in danger if it were not for RFM. I guess my point is that RFM alone won't save a chapter that has reached the point of no return, but it can help a chapter from getting there in the first place.

Both paragraphs: very, very true. I would love to see some kind of research that explores the number of women getting bids now vs. the numbers in past years. I would expect the numbers took a dip before someone came up with quota plus but by this time, they should have gone up again.

For sure, this part of the country isn't seeing all the chapters dying that we used to or even the number of very tiny "bottom" tier chapters on their way out. I think that RFM is finally doing its job.

I can still understand the frustration of women who are heavily cut right off because they were cut after only 1 brief party (sometimes just 20 minutes) in which hardly anyone got to know them. I don't know what the answer is for that.

Deferred rush without ridiculous restrictions - where women interested in sororities and women already in sororities get to know each other as humans, rather than as pursuer and pursued. That is the answer for that.

And Virginia Tech is an example of a large-scale recruitment (12 chapters, quota about 50) where that works!

A-freakin-men. After reading the infraction stories threads, it's ridiculous some of the rules there are. It really becomes a tattle-fest. Glitter or napkins as gifts? Stepping over a sidewalk line? Really? These thing are TOTALLY going to make PNMs want to join one chapter over another. Panhellenics need to evaluate what is truly problematic.

Whenever I read LeslieAnne's recruitment story at UMD in the mid 80s, I think, wow, if RFM were implemented, Maryland might still have Pi Beta Phi (closed 1990), Alpha Gamma Delta (closed 1992), Alpha Xi Delta (closed 1993), and Gamma Phi Beta (closed 2000). Instead, top tier chapters didn't make very many cuts after the first round, so of course, most PNMs cut the "bottom" chapters. I do have to wonder how Maryland had the same 18 chapters from 1962 to 1989, and without any membership-number-related closures since the first sororities came to campus in 1920 until 1990. That is especially impressive they made it through the 60s and 70s, times when Greek Life was not very popular! All that without RFM! Maybe as long as your chapter wasn't in debt and spiraling out of control with smaller and smaller numbers, your HQ didn't care?

Yeah, pretty much. I don't think they cared if you had 5 members, as long as you were paid up. IMO the Internet has been part of what's changed all that. It's a lot harder now to hide that OMG XYZ's chapter at Goren U only has 16 people and the rest have 50, therefore XYZ must suck. When there was limited contact between universities, it didn't really matter. I mean, when I pledged I assumed that AST must have been one of the biggest sororities in the entire nation because it was one of the biggest chapters at my college.

Not only that, late 80s/early 90s is when insurance started going through the roof. Chapters who cost more to run than they brought in through membership fees were discarded. By this I don't mean that they were doing anything that was RM-bad, but that eliminating chapters probably cut the rate you had to pay on insurance.

Only 2 girls, the others either got dropped completely after the first round or still didnt get the chapter they wanted and withdrew from recruitment.

I so remember those days. I can think of many chapters that would probably still be at various SEC schools had we had RFM and I don't know if they'll ever return because when the schools have opened up for expansion, those chapters haven't bothered to reapply.

But the sorority could change their mind if they get to meet the girl again.

Well to a point. Before RFM they had to release a lesser number. Basically everyone else could get a second chance except for those girls they would have released anyway.

I get what you're saying but opinions change a lot in recruitment, for both the PNM's and the sororities. The more rounds you go back, the better chance you have at a bid, no?

Not necessarily - depends a great deal on the campus. There are many campuses where the bid list(s) are all but decided before recruitment even starts. There has to be a cut-off point - unless you want recruitment to run for weeks.

^^ Star what she said. I don't care if the rush is in early August or mid-October, at many of these schools certain sororities know who they want and hardly anything (unless one of their favored girls does a pole dance on the campus flagpole) is going to change that list. Rarely do you hear of someone saying at these schools, "Hey! I just met a fabulous girl at first parties (or in my class or at a party) and we really need to consider her!"

Nope, if one of their favored girls cuts them, they have a zillion backups to fill her place and have had them for months.

Just curious, Carnation, how do the Chapters know a whole pledge class full of women prior to recruitment? Are these not the same girls all the other houses want too?

On a side note, do you think the RFM's have made recruitment more competitive? The reason why I ask this is that I often hear the PNM's saying how some Chapters are making huge cuts (again not understanding the system) and it is so hard to get an invitation so more cuts = exclusivity of those said Chapters?

SWTXBelle & Carnation -

Is there even a point for rush then for those chapters/campuses?

I can't believe I'm replying to this...
Yes, the sorority could change their mind to invite a girl back to round 2 if they met the girl again---that's not the point. The point is that if you are borderline getting cut after round 1 (a "maybe" that got cut), you're not ending up on that chapter's bid list after 4 rounds, so the chapter should not lead you on. For every PNM that a chapter "changed their mind on", one that was set to be invited back must be cut. Members of "top tier" chapters do like many of the women their chapters end up cutting, but there are only so many spaces.

Plus, like other posters have said, down in SEC-land and at other competitive universities, chapters know who they want for the most part, and meeting a PNM that they don't know twice vs once is not going to make the difference in getting cut or invited back after round 1.

And like I said...the point of RFM is not "oh let's give everyone another chance at the top tier chapters". It is to maximize Panhellenic membership.

On certain big campuses, several of the older sororities have pretty much interchangeable members, despite what people say about 'finding your best fit' and they're all looking at the same group of a couple hundred outstanding girls. Say there are 1600 PNMs--6 groups might have their eye on the same 200-300 girls because no one knows for sure which way the girls will go. I've actually seen lists--let's say, a sorority thinks that quota will be 50 and here are their top 50 girls but because they know that every sorority gets cuts, they have a runner-up list. No, I'm not talking about my own sorority, I haven't seen any Pi Phi lists because I'm too far from alum groups or chapters. I have seen lists for at least 6 other groups.

Whether or not these campuses have pre-recruitment parties in the spring or summer, these groups already have their eye out for certain girls. Most of them they know very well. I know of one SEC sorority that has alums looking out for 'the best girls from the small towns' in their state and that's mainly who they pursue. Others may have other types of girls they're looking for but when invite lists come out, it's pretty obvious that many sororities have the same list of desired PNMs, mainly your stellar girls with great service and grades and activities and looks. Many sorority members have a Wall of Fame inside where the members hang up posters with pictures and details about their PNM favorites, urging others to vote for them.

It'd be nice if there could be a second round of no-cut parties so sororities could get to know girls better and that happens at some medium-sized to smaller schools but face it, when you're dealing with hundreds of girls you conduct it the best you can. I don't have any suggestions for how to do it better...the numbers are just too big.

AXOrushadvisor, you're probably right about exclusivity. So much of the PNM talk before recruitment on certain campuses isn't "Will I get a bid?" but "Will I manage to get a bid from certain groups?" That's no different from what it was like 30-40 years ago but your chances were better to get in your desired group back than because quotas were determined sooner and thus quota was bigger.

You know what? I think that in a way, sororities are reaping what they sowed back then. If 8 sororities took classes of 60 each and the other 4 took only 25 each, the new members were happier then because they got (one of) their choice groups. However, their daughters are paying the price because with so many legacies of certain groups on certain campuses, the daughters aren't making it into their legacy groups.

I can speak from experience - even chapters at non-SEC schools have their eyes on certain pnms, and have alumnae working with them to get recs, etc. You'd be surprised at some of the "non-competitive" campuses where chapters have their lists of favoured pnms before recruitment starts.

But they might not. That's kind of like saying a job should interview their second place candidate again, even though they know who they want to hire. MAYBE they'll change their mind, but probably not. And then the third, fourth, fifth.... 345th girl would like a chance too.

So... you just want to get rid of RFM. It's been explained pretty well that this screws the less popular chapters by leading PNMs on. And it implies that there is something so valuable about ABC's membership that cannot be found with XYZ. Why should the popular chapters maximize their return at the expense of the less popular ones? Particularly when all that happens is fewer girls get bids overall. It's not like more people will get bids at ABC, the exact same number will. Even if Suzie PNM changes ABC's mind and gets invited back, you just bumped Jenny PNM who is now in the same boat as Suzie.



No. You might slightly increase your chances with chapter A, but you will have to cut other chapters each round you return to chapter A. So now you've lost out on a chance at a bid to B, C, and D. And then A cuts you anyway. Overall, your odds are better if you're let go early from a more popular chapter if you keep your options open.

Again, this puts a lot of weight on membership in one chapter vs another which I think is really misplaced.

I agree that it's not just SEC schools that have pre-recruitment bid lists already mapped out. I know for a fact that other less competitive southern campuses have done this in the past and may still do this.