*shyly raises a hand*

I think Marjorie looks like a femal Steve Martin. Even her facial expressions. It's creepy.

Many pageant applications stipulate that the contestant must be a "natural born female". Therein may lie the difference.

.....Kelly :)

Isis- I don't think she will win, mainly because, as someone brought up earlier, Covergirl. Honestly, we live in a society where transgender, homosexuality are still "taboo" topics. I have a feeling that Covergirl won't want to be associated with a transgender (pre-op) "female". Now, if Isis were post-op I think it would be a whole different story.

Saliesha- What flack was she getting? How did I miss this?

I honestly don't know who I think will win. I can say that I really don't like Clark. I'm definately looking forward to the makeovers. Should we start taking bets on who will cry?

I also think if it was a different, edgier cosmetics company it might be a different story - for example MAC has already used RuPaul as a model. But CG is trying to appeal to middle America.

Re Saleisha, here's wiki:

Since Stowers's win, there has been controversy regarding her eligibility to appear on the show. The show's rules state that a contestant must not have appeared as a model in a national advertising campaign during the last five years. Stowers appeared in a 2006 commercial for Wendy's. There is debate among viewers of the show over whether the commercial for Wendy's could be considered an advertising campaign, which would make Stowers ineligible to compete in America's Next Top Model. The CW said in a statement that Stowers did disclose her participation in the Wendy's spot, and "after reviewing the commercial, it was determined that her appearance did not amount to "modeling" experience, and therefore did not exclude her from participating in the show". Several blogs and news outlets have speculated that her past relationship with Banks (her participation in Banks' T-Zone camp and her past appearances on Tyra's television shows and her appearance as a model on The Tyra Banks Show and Cycle 6 of America's Next Top Model), may have influenced the selection of the winner. Saleisha has also been a National Spokesmodel for Especially Yours wigs for more than a year before the show ran as well as appearing in an episode of the hit US sitcom Ugly Betty.

Honestly I think people were far more upset about her associations w/ Tyra than the Wendy's ad.

Isis also appeared as a model on ANTM previously and they've been open about it (which may be why no one cares--they didn't hide it this time). I was taken aback when I found out how much Saleisha had done for Tyra, but none of it was blatantly against the rules like Isis' gender is. IMO, if Isis wants a career as a transgender model then let him go for it. But I just don't think it's fair for him to be in a competition when his gender makes him ineligible. I'm excited to see how it all plays out, though. The only upside to being sick is I no longer have to work tomorrow night, so I'll be home to watch. :D

The Wendy's campaign was what was debatedly against the written rules, not the modeling for Tyra & appearing on her shows. The two things taken together were what made people think something was fishy.

Regarding all the gender comments, as recognized by many state laws and by psychological associations, transgendered people are the defined by the gender they identify with. Isis would not get in trouble for using a women's restroom or for checking "female" on government documents. Sometimes this requires a diagnosis of gender identity disorder or what have you but not always.

As long as the rules don't specify "natural born female" there's nothing illicit about her entry, and since the whole thing's been open, clearly the show made the decision when they allowed her on.

"Shim" comments are rather offensive. Seriously, Isis is a "she" whether or not she can ever afford an operation. Calling her a "him" or a he/she is as sensible as saying a gay person must really be straight because you say so. You know she's transgender, why go out of your way to deny it?

If it helps for clarity, if given the option, she might check male as "biological sex" but female as "gender."

OK so I love that Sheena's nice and has an understanding personality. She's in my top 5, but my top two are definitely Hannah and Analeigh.

OMG SHEENA. STOP IT WITH THE FAKE HARLEM ACCENT.

I'm not sure if I have any favorites yet.

You know I normally agree with you, but it's not a matter of anyone's "say so." If we're going to talk about mental states, then those are things that are subjective until physical proof comes into play. (I couldn't possibly know a man's orientation so I'd have to take his word for it, but if I caught him jacking off with a Playboy...) Isis, however, may say/think/feel he is a woman but the fact is that he has a penis and a Y chromosome--a perpetual longing to be female complete with matching mental state will not change that. If anything, looking at a man and calling him a her just because he's cross-dressing is denial of fact to me. Perhaps I'm in denial of his wishes, but as he's not an acquaintance whose wishes I must honor, I'll call it like I see it. My 23 cents.

So if you have a Y chromosome but no penis, is that male enough? Are eunuchs men? Are women born without functioning vaginas really women? What if you have XXY? Are you both? If you're born with intersexed genitalia do you get to choose! I'm sure glad you're setting the standards for gender for the world!

Seriously, it's the equivalent of me saying that you don't dress/look/act like my standard of a woman therefore you must be a man. And I thought we got past that a loooooong time ago. You're in denial of psychology and accepted standard medical practice not just her wishes.

Men and women who are diagnosed with GID aren't just cross-dressing, in fact living as the opposite sex is one of the three major parts of triadic therapy, hormones and surgery being the other two. Isis alluded to being on hormones. She may never get or be able to afford the surgery, this does not make her any less of a woman.

So, according to you, it isn't scientists over the centuries who have crafted definitions of male and female based on the qualities of reproductive systems and genetic make-up...I'm the one who made all that up and decided that's how it is. I'm flattered at how much stock you put in my opinions, but you're giving me a tad more credit than I deserve. :) And not only have you deemed a stranger's posts on a message board "standards of gender for the world," but now you've given Isis diagnosis of GID (alluding to psychopathology) because...why exactly? Because you looked at the set standards of GID and determined that Isis fit the criteria? Or is it so because you "say so?" :rolleyes: Either way, my thoughts are my thoughts and do not effect Isis personally nor do they cause any degree of devastation to humanity. It's really not quite the crisis situation you make it out to be. If you disagree then disagree, but you needn't get this worked up over a forum and a tv show. ;)