If that's what your chapter/nm class chose to do, that's your decision. I don't care either way. I was just answering for my own organization. My last statement was meant to show the ONLY restriction on letters, crest, whathaveyou in regards to non-members involves our badge. That's not to say some chapters don't do the whole "no letters before initiation" deal, but if it's a nm class choice, I don't really care.

It wasn't your org that my post was about. You just happened to be talking about that subject.;)

And, if the pledge class votes on it, it's fine...but the way the girl put it to me, it seemed like the vote was just a formality and letters WOULD NOT be worn during pledging regardless of what the NM class actually wanted.

And that's essentially my problem with the argument that the pledge class decided so it's ok. Faced with "Tradition" and the suggestion that you go along with it, what pledge class won't? I think what bugs me the most about this thread is the thumbs down! It's not bad to get letters on bid day.

The thumbs down was my personal opinion. I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone but I personally feel that you shouldn't wear letters until you really know what they stand for, and initiation provides that understanding, coupled with your pledge period. Obviously we disagree on that point, but we're from different orgs and different schools. I think the point made about campus climates was dead on.

Wow! I thought this was a national policy! Thanks for the clarification. The Pi Phi Angels at my school weren't allowed to wear letters or the Beta until initiation, either.

ADPi new members are allowed to wear letters on Bid Day. They may not wear or own the crest until initiation.

ADPi new members are also allowed to attend regular chapter meetings (they are excused during any ritual that involves a requirement to be an initiated member), they vote and can hold chapter offices that don't require knowledge of ritual that would learned at initiation.

I think wearing letters, Greek or Roman characters, is a wonderful way to get excited about your chapter, promote your chapter and aid in new member retention.

It does depend on how the campus does things, but some traditions that were considered kosher 10 years ago might now be viewed as walking a fine line or hazing today. It isn't that the acts are dangerous or unwanted in many cases; it is more that some unreasonable person ruined things for everyone.

I give a big thumbs up to letters of any kind: it shows the whole world that you are proud to represent your organization.

Weren't you just saying how you WANTED to not wear letters? Having an active say that basically guarantees that the NM class will vote to not wear letters. Everyone wants to be liked, and no one wants to be 'that' new member that tries to go against tradition.

You've made a few other contradictory statements in this thread, too.

When a friend of mine was a Pi Beta Phi pledge (yes, this was back when sorority women were pledges) at Kentucky, they too were suppose to only wear either the words spelled out (Pi Phi) or the greek letters (P F). One time, on a lark (ok, I may have suggested it), she put her pledge pin in the middle of her letters.

It looked something like this but with the letters being much larger than the pin.

P http://www.pibetaphi.org/images/symbols_pin.gif F

As I recall, she got a talking to from an active (though it seemed to me that the the active was suppressing a smile) about the proper way to wear her pledge pin.

We wore our new member pins when we "pin dressed" during the week and to our chapter meetings.

Ok, since I've been ever so slightly attacked on this thread, allow me to clarify my position and then forget I ever opened this can of worms. My new member coordinator stated that we could vote as a pledge class. Of course, I wanted to wear letters but I thought it was kinda neat that it was traditionally reserved for initiated sisters, it gave us a status symbol to look forward to because, as I've said before, letters were worn a lot on my campus. She told us that it was tradition to wait to wear them but we would vote as a pledge class whether or not we wanted to wait. I'm not going to lie, there was of course some influence on her part, but I don't feel like it was hazing (gray area maybe, but I didn't feel hurt or humiliated so I don't feel it constituted hazing). Then I saw how most of the other chapters on campus adhered to this belief also, so then I really believed it was a good idea to wait. There are chapters that make girls wear their pledge ribbons all throughout their pledge period and no one calls them out for hazing, so I think saying that my new member coordinator was walking a fine line of hazing is just silly. I've stated my belief, some have agreed, others disagreed. The fact that we all do it differently is just one more thing that sets each chapter apart and I don't feel that's a bad thing.

So don't get upset that there's discussion about it.

BTW, requiring NMs wear their ribbons would also technically qualify as hazing under most sororities policies. So I'll call them out if you like. "They're doing it too" or "they're doing it worse" doesn't absolve anyone else.

Discussion and attacking are different. All one has to say is that they disagree and here's why, not "you're contradicting yourself" and you're wrong. I didn't think that's what GC was for. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, just say so instead of making me feel bad for a belief that I know I'm not alone in or wrong to believe. And I'm not saying that one act is more an act of hazing than another, just trying to show another example is all. I'm not trying to shift the light onto another topic or anything like that, just proving a point. Sororities do all sorts of little things that could technically constitute hazing if you want to take it that far, but then you lose some of the fun of traditions that some women hold very dear. I could go into a list of things my chapter did that you may consider hazing (in that oh so gray area) but I'd be messing with ritual and traditions. All I'm saying is, I disagree with you and you disagree with me. Simple enough.

That's your chapter, not everyone's. I honestly can't think of ONE thing we do with NMs that could even be in a gray area. Of course, my school is known for being extremely strict with hazing laws - it is simply not tolerated among the NPC/NIC groups on campus. [I can't speak for the NPHC; I don't really know any chapter well enough to say about it.]

And there is nothing wrong with pointing out that you're being contradictory.

If I didn't feel hurt in some way or humiliated, then I don't feel it was hazing. I think some people take the hazing issue a little far for political correctness sake and don't see that some of it is merely in good fun. I was honestly jealous of the girls who had to wear their pledge ribbons all the time, I would have been proud to wear my sorority colors every day whether I was told to or not. Isn't it expected that sisters wear sorority paraphanalia during recruitment and that new members especially are told to do so during COR afterwards - and that's not considered hazing. I'm just saying, by your rationale, a lot of things that we ALL do could be considered hazing and I don't feel telling a new member that it is more appropriate to wait to wear our letters until they know their full meaning is hazing. Your chapter and you may feel differently, but it was our campus climate to keep this tradition and again, I don't feel it's hazing. You're acting like I had my fat circled!!!

So the deal with my chapter was that we were allowed to get letters as NMs, but our chapter tradition was that our mom got us our first set of letters (I've expounded upon our mom-daughter families elsewhere, if anyone wants a rundown, I'll give it again). We didn't find out who our mothers were until I-week.
This thread actually makes me think of the letters in AIM profiles issue. Something that's not familiar to you more mature ladies is the issue of instant messenger profiles.
When I got my bid I was SO proud to put my letters in my profile but a friend, sister and recent alum of my chapter (friend first for 4 years prior) said that while she didn't care, there would be sisters who would. So I whipped them out my profile and told my pledge sisters to do the same.
Well my big (also the chapter president!) noticed this immediately and asked me what was up so I told her and she bristled and said that we were all allowed to put the letters up and if anyone complained to send them to her.