Just to clarify - when I made my comment above about people not knowing how to maximize their grocery shopping, I think it goes across all income levels. I'm not trying to say that "people on food stamps just need to learn how to shop better" by any means. Most people could learn to shop better...I used to spend $700 a month to get essentially the same stuff I now get for $300. We weren't in dire need of getting our grocery spending down, but honestly...why give that extra $400 to the grocery store when it could stay in our pockets instead? :)

(An added perk is that by learning how to manage my grocery spending, I'm able to pick up extra on some of the great deals and donate it. There are many organizations always in need of personal hygiene products, etc. By maximizing the money I spend, I'm also able to maximize the volume of stuff I can donate. :cool: )

I definitely understand that not everyone is able to just "get another job." (Yes, I think there are people who abuse the system and that irks me. But I don't think its the majority of people.) For those of you who think otherwise, I'd highly recommend reading the book "Nickled and Dimed" if you haven't already. Even if you don't completely agree with the author's premise, it will get you thinking about issues in a whole new light.

I'm not mac.. but no, that crackhead couldn't be me. Crack is whack. I've never touched an illegal drug in my life. Never will. Chances of me ending up a crackhead = 0%.

Again, not Mac, but if I look in the mirror and see someone who is working his ass off to be successful, I guess that gives me the right to judge those who refuse to put forth the same sort of effort.

Not really. Construction crews are hiring all the time. They're so desperate taht they'll hire illegal immigrants to do work at the risk of criminal penalty.

Of course, most Katrina "victims" were pretty screwed up before the storm hit due to their own stupid choices prior to the storm.

So what you're saying is that they're too lazy to do for themselves, so we ought to get off our collective asses and provide for them? No.. sorry.. busy providing for myself. Thanks.

Your point?

Many of use, due to the fact that we've saved a lot of money, were able to pursue a decent education, etc. aren't going to end up in that sort of situation. If you make good choices in life, that sort of situation simply does not happen.

You need to start a "Susan's spend less at the grocery store tip of the week" thread.;)

Pull your pants up man......your entire ass is now showing....thanks for enlightening us on your 'fascinating' opinions on how everyone, as far as you have 'judged', everyone....will be able to avoid getting food stamps.

Elitist selfish and classist statements if I ever heard any.

I can see both sides of the issue; as someone who grew up in a household where money was tight, and who worked full-time to pay for undergrad (and is doing so through law school), part of me just wants to say "get a job, pick yourself up and make yourself into something." My parents weren't able to help, so even with a bunch of academic scholarships paying for most of my undergrad, I had to do 40+ hour workweeks in undergrad (and around 40 now) to pay my way through.

Then there's the part of me that realizes I grew up in a morally-supportive household. There's the part of me that has volunteered and seen people who didn't even have that level of support, kids who are now in the poverty cycle and who have their own kids.

I tend to go more towards the side Kevin is arguing in all of this, only because I don't know of an easy answer. Would people be ok if taxes skyrocketed for more programs, like the maternity leave program in Australia? Would people be ok if other programs were cut in favor of increased funding for the homeless? Do people want all their paychecks to go to taxes? Do you put your energies on the older people who are now homeless, or do you focus more on the children and teens who have an opportunity to turn around their lives?

I don't know, I just don't see it as an easy issue. I agree with Monet that education is a huge (probably the biggest) part in this whole thing. I also agree with squirrely girl that these types of conversations are/can be solid and productive. I just don't think some people should be getting so defensive about other's differences in opinions.

^ not a salient point in your entire post.

Congratulations on your accomplishment. If you can't address my reasoning/values, attack me.

Are you saying that if welfare recipients had jobs or their own businesses that many would not need federal benefits? No.. you could not possibly be saying that because if many of these folks had jobs, they would not qualify.

Oh.. but I'm a bad person. Got it. Nice work with that, btw.

I thought you were done with this subject?

ITA. If we all posted the same philosophies on every subject this would get boring in a hurry.

We ought not spend our hard earned money on folks who did not earn money in their lifetimes. Those people are wastes of oxygen in my opinion. I'll bet if we quit giving them $21/week in food stamps, they'd get jobs... or they'd die.

With all the suffering in the world, someone kicking off because they were too lazy to do the sort of work Americans won't do doesn't bother me so much.

I agree. This is one reason I'm a HUGE supporter of NCLB. Our schools are basically our first lines of defense against poverty. I'd like to see the KIP (Knowledge Is Power) program used in more places. We have one here in probably the poorest part of town in OKC. The school is 96% minority. Those kids go to that school from 7:30AM to 5PM. They have at least 3 hours of homework every night. Despite the fact that they're basically all poor, 85% of these kids go to college.

I have no problems investing my money in education. I do have a problem investing my money with people who merely want my money so that they may continue to not miss their daytime TV.

:eek::eek::eek::eek: Wow. Just wow.

Kevin, there have been a few points that I haven't completely disagreed with you on, but this is just shocking to me.

Most senior citizens did work hard in their lifetimes. In fact, many of them worked harder than any of us ever will. The world has changed greatly, in ways that people may never have been able to anticipate back then.

Yes, we in modern times know not to trust/rely on a company sponsored pension and social security...because we've seen so many seniors get the rug pulled right out from under them. But 50 years ago, that was not the common mindset. People back then assumed that if they provided a lifetime of loyalty and hard work to an employer, then they would be taken care of in retirement. Unfortunately, now they've seen benefits and pensions get slashed at the same time cost of living has skyrocketed.

I agree that if a person has been lazy their whole life and never contributed to society, then maybe we shouldn't have to worry about holding him/her up now. But I don't think those people are anywhere close to the majority of senior citizens on food stamps. That generation knew how to work...hard. And we've all benefited from the fruits of their labor. The idea that you think these people should just hurry up and die absolutely horrifies me.

With a slightly different situation to the original discussion, I would simply point out that some people (like our middle child -- a daughter now 27 years old) do make some very bad decisions, some (as they grow up) realize that and honestly try to realign their lives.

It isn't easy. Bad habits (drugs in her case) died hard, and trying to right problems like her credit is a long and difficult process. Bouncing back from a bad marriage, especially when a child is involved is painful -- especially when the father lends little or no support.

Do we punish those people for the rest of their lives for mistakes made when they were young and stupid?

I should say that our daughter has never taken a cent of entitlement money (we've had to help her -- a lot) but, seeing the situation, I would not have disapproved if she had.

She has been "sober" now for six or seven years, but is still struggling financially -- even though she has always had a job and works hard in her profession, although that was not always the case.

So, again, do we throw these people and their children away because of mistakes in the past?

I agree that many people (myself included) made bad choices in their youths. HOWEVER, I had to grow up, correct my mistakes (in my case, post-college credit card debt) and work double-time to make things right. My parents refused, and rightfully so, to help me out of the mess I made of my finances. I did not ask for, nor did I receive assistance in paying off my debt. I worked 2, sometimes 3 jobs, lived frugally and managed to pay it off in 3 years.

It wasn't easy and sometimes I was angry with my parents for not helping me, or jealous of my friends who didn't have to spend 1/2 their salaries fixing stupid mistakes. :mad: But I learned a lesson.....THEY WERE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR FIXING MY LIFE. That's my job. Period.

No, you shouldn't pay for youthful mistakes your whole life. You should make it right and get in gear. I am sorry for your daughter's woes, but only she can put her life back together and move on. I thank my parents for teaching me that lesson the hard way. :)

Civilized society should provide the necessities for those who cannot provide for themselves. As for those who simply don't want to provide for themselves, I think society owes them nothing.

Now, the elderly, in most cases cannot work. Therefore, I have no problem with providing help. My argument really doesn't reach them.

That is unfortuante. As I said though, I'm happy to have a little bit of my income redistributed to those who for whatever reason have no ability to provide for themselves -- especially when their situation is no fault of their own.

I think you're mistaken as to my meaning. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Hope this helps.

That makes a little more sense. (Not that I completely agree with all the points you've been trying to make in this thread, but you've at least clarified the post I had referenced.)

Well, the first tip I will offer is that grocery stores tend to run their sales in cycles...approximately 12 week cycles, give or take.

The critical mistake that many people make is replacing something as they run out of it, and quite often getting stuck paying full price because they run out when there's no sale on that particular item. With proper planning, you can arrange your grocery shopping so that you never pay full price for an item.

(Except, of course milk and fresh produce which need to be replenished each week. But if you're saving money on all the items which you can stock up on, it doesn't hurt the pocketbook quite as much to splurge on those fresh items.)

There is actually a website that tracks grocery store sales and puts out a weekly list for each store. Highlighted on the list are items which are at their rock bottom price, so you know which sale items that week are worth stocking up on. It is a subscription based service which costs $5 a month to get your local store's list. Now, a person could certainly track this information on their own, but it would take a lot of time and effort to put that information together. I subscribe to the list because the $5 a month is worth it to me in exchange for not having to spend hours each week reviewing sale ads and tracking the information myself.

It does take me about an extra hour per week to prepare for my shopping trip, but given that I'm saving $400 a month over what I was spending before for essentially the same stuff that extra hour is worth it!

I'll give the link, but I want to make 2 things clear first:

1) I don't get anything for promoting this site. (Yes, if you had my personal e-mail address to enter w/me being your "referral source," I'd get a month free. But, since none of you have my personal e-mail address I get zilch for recommending it.)

2) There is a message board associated with the site that has some very overzealous ladies on it (not all of them are that way, but many are). Some of them do go a little overboard with their stockpiling, etc. I don't tend to frequent that board, but occasionally you can look at it and get some interesting money saving tips. However, I can assure you that you can still save money with the grocery lists without being fanatical about it. :)

Here's the site - you can get a 4 week trial for $1. http://www.thegrocerygame.com/ I was a little skeptical at first, but figured "what have I got to lose for $1?" As I said, you could piece together this information by faithfully tracking sale ads yourself without the assistance of this site...I chose not to do that, b/c I have neither the time nor the patience. I'd rather let someone else do the dirty work for me. :o ;)


ETA: Somewhat related to the topic at hand...if you browse the message board, you can see the stories of some single mothers on food stamps who have used that particular system to make a huge difference in their lives. Because, of course, while food stamps help you cover some of your food expenses, they don't cover a lot of the other stuff...cleaning supplies, personal hygeine stuff, etc.

1.)That crackhead can "easily be me"? No, I really don't think so. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you have to first start using crack to become a crackhead. I don't see that happening too soon.

2.)Who am I to judge? Sport, I have looked in the mirror. I see someone who has busted their ass in school......worked when I haven't had too, and made connections that will hopefully secure my well being later on down the road.

3.)Hurricane Katrina struck two years ago this August 23rd. I think in two years you can find a job doing something. Furthermore, can they not rebuild their own homes? Did I miss something here? Why are you trying to make us feel like we OWE it to them to drop everything we are doing and help them fix their own lives. Again, they should take some damn initiative and stop feeling sorry for themselves. Yeah, Katrina was horrible....but its over. Do you know how easily these people could get hired doing construction, road work, oil field roughnecks? Ridiculously fast.

4.) I have a job. Thanks. And if I was ever dealt a bad hand and forced to live a life for a while that I was unaccustomed to........I would damn sure not settle for being a leech on a street corner with a change jar. In all honesty, I don't see anything like that happening to me though, ever. I have made good choices, at a young age, with my money which will benefit me down the road. IRA's, mutual funds, trusts...........those are all there so that those "down on your luck" situations won't happen.