Delt,

I am an alumni, and give all the encouragement in the world to my undergraduate brothers, that if they want to brand their letters into their skin, fuck-in eh, go for it.

When it becomes part of the pledge process, then we'll talk.
When it becomes part of initiation, then we'll talk.
When pledges are forced to do it to prove themselves, then we'll talk.
When pledges or brothers are pressured into it, then we'll talk.

Otherwise, as a grown adult if they choose to do it on their own, go nutz.

I wholeheartedly agree that chapters vary. For example, what Chapter A does before or after meetings may be different than Chapter B's. Yet ritual, new member education, pledging, initiation et al. are generic to that fraternity and it's chapters.

As such, what individual members of a chapter may do - either together or separately - would not be part of that chapter's programs. It might be part (peer pressure perhaps) of that chapter's or even the campus experience - Greek or otherwise - but not a program.

For example, getting good grades and building bonds with your brothers are part of the whole fraternity experience. Yet neither "Hey, after the chapter meeting we are all going to the library to study. Want to come?" or "The legal aged members are going to the popular college bar for responsible drinking, please join us if you like." would be considered part of a chapter's program.

When it goes to court -- then they'll talk.

I don't care if they want to get branded. I, and others above, simply are pointing out the potential for serious misunderstanding and repercusions.

In both of your two examples, nothing bad happened. There's a saying in the legal field: "We'll throw mud and see where it sticks". Often, in these types of cases, it goes back to the organization. If your chapter is having a get-together (not a party on the calendar) at someone's house and a member or even a non-member ends up getting drunk, walking outside and being run over by a car, you (as in your organization) can be sued -- this has actually happened and the chapter was held liable). If they end up getting beat up by NON-MEMBERS they can be sued.

If a few of your pledges decide to do a "power hour" (consume a quantity of beer every minute for an hour) and one of them dies of alcohol poisoning.. guess what? In all likelihood, your organization will be sued and lose some money.

Just as if a chapter has a culture where a lot of members get brands. If one of those brands became infected and a limb were lost, guess who the lawyers are going after? Most likely, it'll be the organization with millions of dollars in assets and a fat insurance policy.

As DA said, we're not talking about what is right or wrong. We're talking about what good risk management is.

Yes, if a person decides to do this on their own free will, say over the Summer (which is what I would encourage if this was something that happened in my organization) -- and do it ALONE, fine. If 2 or more brothers go and have it done -- and especially if a majority of members in your chapter have had this done, I'd say that it's not a huge leap to implicate the organization.

Basically, I think the saying is" If The Shit Hits The Fan", it is going to stick on any Brother/Sister of a particular Organization.:(

Do I agree with what happened to the KS at two schools, PKA, LXA at others No I do not.

But, this Just points out what the true situation really is.

Alfred U. NY, a Local did something that got ALL Greek Organizations taken of Campus.

Did that Help, Hell No!:confused:

They are still gone, that is it period, GONE!

maybe i'm just really not 'in the know', but where on earth do you get these done?

Like... how would a chapter have access to, say a Sigma Chi crest branding iron?! or the letters or whatever.

Since it seems like other fraternities have done this, where do they get them? Is it something that was custom-made and just kept in the chapter storage room? or can you go to a tattoo-parlor-type place and have that done?

:confused:

To be clear, I was addressing the comment that the branding appeared to be part of the chapter's programs. I may have missed it, but nowhere did I read that it was part of the chapter's program.

Moving forward and with respect to risk management, I do agree with the "throw mud at it" analogy. (Something I've heard before as well.) And frankly, the reason I used the two examples I did was that these two events could also be considered hazing and or risk management issues. Think forced study hours and forced (power hour) drinking. Yet if done voluntarily and responsibly, then there isn't an issue.

At this time we don't know enough about the situation to really make a judgment call regarding hazing or risk management. But from what the original post said, and from Internet research, it seems like so far the only issue is with a pissed off farther.

Which may be bad enough for the son.

Coathangers on the stove, baby.

I think you're talking about Micro-Management and calling it good risk management.

I understand how this works and the points your making, afterall, we all know Kevin Bacon, through someone who knows someone, who knows someone, who knows someone.

But, EX cannot be held liable, for example, if this kid was hanging out by his pool one day, tossed the coat hangar on his grill, and branded himself, just because he is a EX member.

They might if this was a group norm and he was doing this in order to conform.

ahhhh... I was thinking like cattle branding .. a'la "The Skulls" (movie)

still coat hangers on the stove.. ouch.

Ah, we could go all day about this.

PS, I beat a suit alleged against my chapter by the police/IFC/University, because I, the chapter president, personally held a party at my home (not the Beta house), and there were Betas there. Some catty sorority girls were also there, which turned into a Panhell. issue due to recuritment...parties...beer...rushees...blah blah blah. It was tried as a 'Beta Event', and they had their asses handed to them.

So, your assumptions are not always true.

And just about once a week, we read about something where my assumptions are true.

"not always" does not equal "never" -- that's my point. I'm not trying to argue absolutes here. Just that in *certain cases* branding can represent a risk management issue.

that is a method but there are branding irons in the most widely used version of various fraternity and sorority brands

Thanks for saying that - I think we are on the same page now. :)