I like how you used the "with all due respect" while dodging around your conflicting statements ;) regarding those on this thread not being "in the know" regarding religion.


Back to topic:
To be honest with you I have no idea what prostitution is like in "that area."
Maybe it's rampant and maybe it's not, II haven't heard much about it there. I also think it's a shame if some leaders are claiming that HIV isn't the cause of AIDS. Then again, if people are going to have sex but the church is telling us that condoms don't stop the spread of HIV or AIDS some people might put themselves at an even greater risk.

From what I could tell, this was an outreach to people (catholics) everywhere, not just in this one area, but that's just my take on it all. There is almost always a bigger picture involved.

And this is one of the main reasons I have lapsed. I strongly disagree when the church goes against scientific evidence and claims that it's wrong while stating that their claims are right. It's like I feel that we are being lied to in order to live a certain way.

Not True. You can get AIDS in non-sexual ways.

Ryan White was infected by the AIDS virus through tainted blood products that he received for hemophilia.

Kimberly Bergalis, who contracted HIV from her dentist, died of AIDS at age 23. She was the first reported case of doctor-to-patient transmission of HIV, and her case stirred a national debate of whether health-care workers should be tested for HIV because she claimed she was a virgin and never used IV drugs

You can also be a medical or dental worker who accidentally "sticks" themselves with a needle (and no, you don't have to be careless in order for this to happen....it could be someone else's carelessness in order for this to happen.)

around 90% of hemophiliacs using a certain product made from live human red blood cells contracted HIV in the mid-80s. Just an FYI for the 'how do i got aids?' crew.

I did it on a few occasions when I worked in a viral gene therapy research lab. It's a part of the job.

I work in the medical devices/patient & healthcare worker safety industry, and this is a HUGE hot topic (and has been for several years). There have been many advances in needlestick prevention, but healthcare workers still get injured every day.

By the way, here's another article on the topic at hand, from a South African source. It makes many good points:

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click...4B216&set_id=1

SA churches 'shocked' by Vatican condom call

October 10 2003 at 01:42PM

The South African Council of Churches (SACC) was "shocked and disgusted" by a call by the Vatican to HIV sufferers around the globe not to use condoms, the organisation's spokesperson said on Friday.

Father Joe Mdhlela, an Anglican priest representing the SACC, which represents all South Africa's mainstream churches, including the Roman Catholic church, said Catholicism was failing to take the realities of the world into consideration.

"I am shocked and disgusted with the Catholic church," he said.

"There is undisputed medical evidence that condoms can help save lives. HIV/Aids is a pandemic, and as the SACC, our belief is do what is possible to save lives and limit the spread of the disease."

"The Catholic church needs to look at the real world. The church's struggle is in its dogma and teachings and it is struggling to break loose from that."

Roman Catholic leaders from four continents told a BBC television programme to be screened in Britain on Sunday that HIV can pass through tiny holes in condoms.

The United Nations agency, UNAids, says sub-Saharan Africa is hardest hit by Aids, being home to more than two-thirds of those infected with HIV or full-blown Aids worldwide, 29,4 million out of 42 million.

There are about four million Catholics in South Africa and several million more in other southern African countries.

Mdhlela said, along with condoms, churches also need to focus on abstinence and faithfulness.

"It is true that churches need to focus on abstinence and faithfulness, but reality does not agree with the Vatican urging HIV sufferers not to use condoms."

Father Hyacinth Ennis, an advisor to the Southern African Bishops Conference on moral issues, said the Catholic church in southern Africa agreed with the Vatican on condoms.

"The bishops regard the widespread use of condoms as an immoral weapon in the battle against Aids," Ennis said.

"Condoms are against human dignity and change the act of love into selfless pleasure. They do not guarantee to stop the spread of Aids and might even be responsible for spread of the disease.

"The bishops' view is that condoms contribute to the breakdown of the moral fibre of nations. Sexual intercourse is very special and should only occur between husbands and wives." - Sapa-AFP

I am a Catholic, and I have never heard of these statements regarding condom use causing AIDS. I think that if indeed it were said, it was said by an individual, not as a statement of Church policy. I am not a lapsed Catholic. I do understand that the Church's emphasis on sexuality can turn off people. I think that is a major problem. The Catholic Church has lost so many wonderful members as a result. Yet, there are over one billion people who identify themselves as Roman Catholics worldwide.

AIDS is of terrifying epidemic proportions in Africa. There are places in Africa were young virginal girls are raped by HIV positive men because they have heard that sex with a virgin will cure them. Of course, it doesn't cure them, and these young girls are violently exposed to this virus.

I think that all of the people, clerical and lay alike, who work with AIDS and HIV patients are heroic. They have devoted their lives to helping people that would otherwise suffer and die in isolation. The Catholic Church, through their hospitals, has been at the front of fighting AIDS and assisting patients and their families alike. Sadly, I knew a family in which three of its four members ultimately died of AIDS. The church was right there to help them through this struggle. They continue to help the lone survivor. The Catholic Church is not an all powerful entity. It is a community of individuals who share the same faith, beliefs, values, and moral codes.

just a few thoughts

Nice post.

Good post Cream. This does seem to be more about a diocese or two than the church as a whole.

The thing that worries me is the cardinals' discussion of the size of holes in condoms. They argue that latex membranes like condoms have holes that are several times larger than the size of an HIV virus -- which is true -- and thus that the virus can pass through the condom -- which is not true. Anyone with an elementary understanding of physics at the microscopic level could tell you that the size of the holes doesn't matter. Microscopic "objects" like individual viruses or molecules don't fall through holes the way baseballs would fall through a net. Surface tension and fluid cohesion are extremely powerful forces at that level. To put it simply, the components of the fluid stick together with tremendous force. One little piece cannot just break off and slip through a hole. (Imagine that the baseballs in the net are all extremely powerful magnets; they will not fall through unless there's a hole big enough for a huge number of them to fall out together.)

Think of it this way. If you pour water into a plastic bowl, the bowl does not leak, right? The holes in a plastic surface are thousands of times larger than water molecules, which are unimaginably tiny. But the water molecules stick together and do not pass through...thus anything trapped among the water molecules (like viruses) also will not pass through.

Condoms are imperfect, yes. But that has everything to do with human error, and nothing whatsoever to do with the size of the holes in latex. Talking about those holes serves no purpose whatsoever except to mislead uneducated people about what can pass through an intact condom.

Ivy

blah, true, but the CONTEXT of this thread was the spread of HIV through sexual contact. The church didn't say, condoms won't prevent AIDS if you're getting a blood transfusion.

It's all about the CONTEXT.

And i'm sorry, i'm still not seeing anything wrong with the Church promoting abstinence.

Kitso
KS 361 times i'm gonna report the Amish person that took offense to my statement to their preacher, you're going to hell for using a 'devil-machine' you barn-raising hypocrite

I'm getting sick of your ignorant statement. The Vatican have said that the condomn holes are big enough for the hiv virus to get through, which is incorrect. Please stop spreading this ignorant statement.

Kitso, I also see nothing wrong with the Church promoting abstinence. My issue is that they are doing that and promoting misinformation.

Like the ignorant statements of your buddy Slick Willie? "i did not have sexual relations with that girl" :rolleyes:

Hey Kettle, this is Pot, YOU'RE BLACK.

freakin hippie. Why don't you go save a whale, hug a tree, smoke some hemp, throw paint on a fur-wearer, or whatever it is you pinkos like to do in your spare time.

Kitso
KS 361 times this would be a better place if we all had Guns

Lol! Damn...

Don't u have a 3rd world to enslaved for your neo-facist corporations? You probably enjoyed watching kids get no education and work $1 a day for your nike. You were probably the person that send those fake letters from Iraq.

moe.ron 323 times I swear Bush fluffers don't know reality from fantasy. Maybe they been masturbating to much to Ann Coulter.

*** ATTENTION ***

Tickets are now on sale for the upcoming Kitso/moe.ron death match!

Hurry! Buy your ticket today and get a free commemorative box of condoms! Your choice of holes or no holes!

** DISCLAIMER: Condoms with holes not to be used for sex.