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-   -   Expansion - evening things out? (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=31980)

shadokat 12-22-2003 04:56 PM

Dolphin, being someone who has done NUMEROUS hazing investigations in New Jersey, I can tell you that nearly EVERY national organization has had trouble with hazing in the Northeast. There's a reason why the large national organizations don't come to the Northeast, and that's due to the risk management issues that come from the campuses they're expanding at. I would be willing to bet that hazing goes on at your campus....maybe not by Tri Delta, but by other organizations. I don't think I've been to one campus in NY or NJ that doesn't haze, with the exception of maybe Syracuse and Cornell, but they did back in the day too.

As for why smaller organizations aren't there, well, I hate to sound mean, but Stockton hit the jackpot when a group like Tri Delta expressed interest. I'd be willing to bet that they got very few "big sorority" packets of interest. I honestly wonder what made Tri Delta want to go to Stockton, but that's just my cynical nature and by no means a knock against Stockton or Tri Delta. I think you all have a fabulous organization.

As to the fact of having 40 or 5 paid staff members, D Phi E has 6 paid staff members. The rest of our organization is based on volunteers. We have well over 200 volunteers who perform various functions within the sorority. For instance, I'm the editor of our international magazine, The TRIAD, and I think I may be one of only a handful of volunteer editors. Most NPC sororities pay someone full time to do that job. We have teams of folks who are trained and work in the areas of risk management, hazing, recruitment, etc. Each team has a staff member assigned to the team, but ALL are trained at annual volunteer training conferences and international convention. So if you're saying that a sorority/fraternity can't function well or serve its collegiate members fully because they don't have a large paid staff, I would beg to differ.

OK, off my soapbox :)

AEPhiSierra 12-22-2003 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
They say by the year 2015, there will only be 15-20 NPC sororities
First I would love to know who "they" is. Not an attack but I would like to see what this based on. Greek life has always waxed and waned - there are years when my sorority has chartered 5 chapters and years when it has chartered none. Its hard to predict the trends so its hard to make assumptions like this.

Secondly, most of the "small sororities" have always been smaller than the "big sororities" and if they have lasted this long as small organizations why would things change now. There are several small NIC fraternities with less chapters than the smallest NPC's and no one ever talks about them closing.

Further the whole point of insurance is so that organizations won't go bankrupt if they are sued. If an organization loses a huge lawsuit the insurance fees just go up. It would be unfortunate to have to spend more money but male fraternities have been able to pay their significantly higher insurance fees (on my campus most of the national fraternities' national dues are higher than our national and chapter dues combined!)

Colonist 12-22-2003 05:20 PM

I hate to come off as the ass here but, those are the breaks, if you can't stay afloat why should you be bailed out? You either can try to merge with other sororities or you can die thats how it goes. It happened in the past so why not now?

33girl 12-22-2003 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Colonist
I hate to come off as the ass here but, those are the breaks, if you can't stay afloat why should you be bailed out? You either can try to merge with other sororities or you can die thats how it goes. It happened in the past so why not now?
Boys are boys.

Girls are girls.

Boys and girls look at things differently.

Next please. :)

Tom Earp 12-22-2003 05:48 PM

As I remember from Greek Social History, ALL Groups Started out as Locals so to speak! That means one Chapter only and expanded from there!

No Matter How large or Small a National is, we all ahve the same problem:

Risk Management=Higher Insurance Rates for you and your Organization.

Risk Management= Higher Dues to pay for these costs.

LXA, does have one of the Highest paid staffs that I know of and I do know that many such as KS and ASA do have a lot of volanteers who go into the field and do work for the Love of Thier Organization.

Tom Helmbock (Exec Sec LXA) and I were talking one time and He stated that ALL Greek Organizations are pinched for Money! No matter how big they are. It is conceivable He said that there may be Mergers which would surprise everyone in the future!! Not just smaller Orgs but between larger ones! Try that on for size!;)

On any campus, the strong may be top dawgs, but with out any of them how does a Greek World Grow! I started a local knowing many guys in all of the Fraternties on campus aned I had Help from each of the Groups for backing! A the old days when no one thought well with less Orgs, I will be bigger. It does not happen! We all felt, the larger the Greek population was, the better it was for all of us. Not everyone wants to join a current Org as do not see what they really feel and be comfortable with!

That is always why I have had a Problem with NPC Groups. XYZ does not have numbers, well quite whining about it, the reason you dont, is that you as a Org. are not presenting what the hell they want!

Now, just whose fault is that! Not the BIG Soroities, but your own draw backs!:o

aopinthesky 12-22-2003 05:49 PM

>>>First I would love to know who "they" is<<<

I agree with you Sierra. I don't think that history would bear out a statement like this. Yes, a number of NPC groups either folded or merged in the 50's, but in the last 40 years or so they have all remained stable. There is every reason to think that will still be the case in the next 10 or 15 years.

PhiPsiRuss 12-22-2003 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
They say by the year 2015, there will only be 15-20 NPC sororities
I also want to know who "they" is. I say that this is complete nonsense. I could perhaps see a few national sororities merge, but if all NPC groups survived the decline in membership in the 90s, I'd say that they are in pretty good shape for the foreseeable future.
Quote:

Originally posted by 33girl
Remember the threads about Kappa Sig & Phi Delt leaving the NIC? I wonder what would happen if one of the 26 left the NPC voluntarily, even though they were strong. That would be interesting to see.
That's not a great comparison. The NPC is for more involved with the policies and operations of its constituent groups than the NIC is with its constituent groups.

Also, I've never run into an administrator during extension talks who has asked if Phi Psi is a member of the NIC (we are a charter member.) They want proof that we are national, have a risk management policy, an insurance carrier, staff support, and programming.
Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
As for why smaller organizations aren't there, well, I hate to sound mean, but Stockton hit the jackpot when a group like Tri Delta expressed interest.
Ever hear of research? Apparently Tri-Delta did their homework and found out that this is a 34 year old public college with an average SAT of about 1,100 for incoming students. Sounds like my fraternity should look into Stockton as soon as our extension load lightens up.
Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
As to the fact of having 40 or 5 paid staff members, D Phi E has 6 paid staff members. The rest of our organization is based on volunteers.
Most NPC groups have a much larger staff, and a similar number of volunteers. There is no substitute for quality staff. Especially when it comes to extension, which is what this thread is about. There is just no way that a part time director of extension can make every conference, and fly to every meeting unless she is basically acting full time on her dime.

sugar and spice 12-22-2003 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by russellwarshay
I also want to know who "they" is. I say that this is complete nonsense. I could perhaps see a few national sororities merge, but if all NPC groups survived the decline in membership in the 90s, I'd say that they are in pretty good shape for the foreseeable future.

Maybe, maybe not. Historically the NPC groups that have been forced to close down or merge didn't do it right away -- the closings and mergings came later, in the 1950s after recovering from the Great Depression, in the 1970s after recovering from the anti-Greek backlash of the 1960s. It would be feasible that there's a group or two that are struggling with the 1990s membership decline and it would only take one event to tip them over the edge.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if a number of NPC groups closed in the coming years, but I also wouldn't be surprised if they didn't. It really could go either way.

PsychTau 12-22-2003 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
They say by the year 2015, there will only be 15-20 NPC sororities


Quote:

Originally posted by AEPhiSierra
First I would love to know who "they" is. Not an attack but I would like to see what this based on.
"They" are the ones who want to see only 15-20 NPC sororities. Can I actually name names and point fingers at "they". No...I don't actually know. If I did "they" would probably deny it. Are "they" members of NPC sororities? Most likely....non-Greeks wouldn't care. "They" will remain a mystery....the reasons (greed? maliciousness? different vision?)will probably remain a mystery.

The solution doesn't have to remain a mystery.

Collegians....help your weaker chapters on your campus. You aren't giving away any XXX secrets by teaching them how to recruit....how to rotate....how it's done traditionally on your campus. Why be afraid to teach them that? If you aren't sure if ABC wants it done that way....tell their President to check with her EO, check with the chapter adviser to make sure you're not stepping on toes. What's wrong with sharing ideas to help their chapter meetings run smoother (and decrease their stress load)?

Most people don't want the "competition" to be stronger. If you're competition is stronger, you will be stronger.

National Officers/Alumnae....if you're sorority is one of the "stronger ones" nationally....be willing to help out one who is struggling. You don't have to give them money, but you could share ideas. You don't have to hand over every manual you have and say "do it this way", but you could say "Well, we've found that doing it that way was a disaster and here's why". I believe that yes, we all have our private policies and procedures, but not everything we do is secret. Our educational programming (anti-hazing, health awareness, etc) doesn't have to be. We're all women, and there's only so many ways to do a breast exam. So why are there 15,000 different presentations on it?

Example: ABC sorority (who only has 15 members) is required by their HQ to have a minimum of 4 educational programs a year presented to their members. The Education Chair, who is also the Ritual Chair and New Member Educator, is responsible for this. She is on a campus with 3 other larger NPC groups, who all have a similar requirement. Why can't each chapter take their best presentation on a topic, and present it to every sorority member on that campus?? (They take turns during the year) If they do that, not only will it fulfill education requirements, it will also help educate women on that campus as a whole, build stronger panhellenic relationships, and hopefully keep the Education Chair from getting too stressed out trying to research and prepare 4 different presentations, which will enable her to be a better Ritual Chair and NME, which will produce stronger, better prepared chapter members, who will in turn create a stronger chapter that will eventually attract more members.

See how sometimes the smallest lifelines have the greatest effect? </off soapbox>

PsychTau

DolphinChicaDDD 12-22-2003 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
... I would be willing to bet that hazing goes on at your campus....
As for why smaller organizations aren't there, well, I hate to sound mean, but Stockton hit the jackpot when a group like Tri Delta expressed interest. I'd be willing to bet that they got very few "big sorority" packets of interest. I honestly wonder what made Tri Delta want to go to Stockton, but that's just my cynical nature and by no means a knock against Stockton or Tri Delta. I think you all have a fabulous organization.

.... So if you're saying that a sorority/fraternity can't function well or serve its collegiate members fully because they don't have a large paid staff, I would beg to differ.

OK, off my soapbox :)

Ok, I'm not saying that hazing doesn't happen on my campus; I know it does.

We did have a few other big names offer...we were just strongly suggested/guided/told basically to go with a larger name. All we have are larger GLOs on campus: AGD, DZ, ZTA, Tri Sig. I won't even go into the guys, since I don't know what is large for them. I'll do some more research...
Also as Russell stated, our school was founded 34 years ago- with no Greek Life whatsoever. It wasn't until the 80's Greeks were allowed on campus; we're expanded leaps and bounds in Greek Life. We're one of the most competitive schools in the nation(behind bucknell and tied with sarah lawrence), and in the top 5 liberal arts college. (can you tell i'm an athetics ambassador? lol) We, as a college, have a lot to offer.

I'm not the one who said a small sorority/fraternity cannnot support its members. The administration is saying that. Example: last expansions (on NIC/NPC level) Tri Delta, ZTA, TKE, Kappa Sig (and KDR tried to exapand, but there was not enough interest).

I'm saying if other administarations believe the same as college's administration, then perhaps the smaller org's might have difficutly. Please do not think I do not like smaller orgs, or have something against them- my best friend is a Phi Sig (even though I don't consider them small with 100+ chapters), I work with a Theta Phi Alpha and a D Phi E. I'm using my personal experience to highlight what might happen in the future, if other local groups are told the same things.

pirepresent 12-22-2003 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tippiechick
Pirepresent,


Even those of us in the "big" orgs. have chapters that close. I specifically know the pain of closing a chapter that probably will never be reopened. Just look at the Ole Miss... Let's Discuss thread for my posts on the subject.

Pain and hard times affect even those of us in large GLOs.


Tippie,

I am sorry for expressing that the wrong way. I know it hurts when a chapter closes, especially one like Ole Miss, with lots of rich history.

What I meant was, while ZTA might never be able to come back to Ole Miss, that is due to THE CAMPUS environment, and the nature of the sorority beast in Mississippi, as was also discussed in that thread. I *highly* doubt that ZTA will ever have trouble colonizing at high profile / large campuses due to the fact that people percieve ZTA as small due to that closing. It's just a fact that ZTA is huge, and that's wonderful. I'm not putting big groups down. I WISH that for every chapter we closed down we have 40 other huge chapters with deep wonderful histories that remain open. I know it doesn't compensate for the loss. But it sure does make it hurt a little less.

As I said before, when people start believing that the number of chapters, and especially number of chapters at large, high profile campuses, is directly correlated with national strength and stability, it creates major turmoil for groups who don't have the same kind of numbers that ZTA has.

shadokat 12-22-2003 06:39 PM

Dolphin, I wasn't saying you or anyone else hates smaller sororities or thinks less of us. My point was that most nationally prestigious sororities, such as Tri Delta, would NEVER think of going to a school in New Jersey. Reason being is that there are a lot of issues with hazing and risk management in the northeast. That's all I meant. I'm sure Stockton has all of those great things you mention :) I just know of other universities in NJ that are great academically as well, but would never get Tri Delta to even bother looking their way. My apologies if I didn't come across properly. :)

Russell, NIC and NPC are two completely different worlds. While I respect that you may know a lot about Greek Life given your experience, I disagree that you "know" about this staff/volunteer issues. We have an amazing staff and many QUALIFIED volunteers, including our long time Director of Expansion, who is a volunteer, and works with a Staff Member in these areas. Do I think we couldn't use more staff members?? Who couldn't, but I don't think our small HQs staff makes us any weaker than any other NPC organization.

PhiPsiRuss 12-22-2003 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
Russell, NIC and NPC are two completely different worlds. While I respect that you may know a lot about Greek Life given your experience, I disagree that you "know" about this staff/volunteer issues. We have an amazing staff and many QUALIFIED volunteers, including our long time Director of Expansion, who is a volunteer, and works with a Staff Member in these areas. Do I think we couldn't use more staff members?? Who couldn't, but I don't think our small HQs staff makes us any weaker than any other NPC organization.
I'm very well aware of the differences. I also know that Phi Psi's full time Director of Expansion speaks with his counterparts in other NIC groups, as well as those in NPC groups, on a regular basis to share information. Until the mid-90s, we used to run extension with a highly capable volunteer also. Boy, did things change when we made that position professional! We are now in the loop far more than before. And we're not that big either; we have 87 chapters and 7 colonies. We are also now getting selected over larger, and better known fraternities on a consistent basis.

If you're wondering why "smaller" NPC groups are passed over in favor of "larger" groups, I'm willing to bet you that it has less to do with size or reputation than it does with the professionalism of that NPC group. Why should anyone expect a volunteer director of extension to succeed over her professional counterparts?

AXORissa 12-22-2003 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shadokat
Dolphin, I wasn't saying you or anyone else hates smaller sororities or thinks less of us. My point was that most nationally prestigious sororities, such as Tri Delta, would NEVER think of going to a school in New Jersey. Reason being is that there are a lot of issues with hazing and risk management in the northeast. That's all I meant. I'm sure Stockton has all of those great things you mention :) I just know of other universities in NJ that are great academically as well, but would never get Tri Delta to even bother looking their way. My apologies if I didn't come across properly. :)

Why, say for instance, wouldnt tri-delt want to go to a school like Rutgers (in NJ also)? Because we have kids die in fraternity related deaths every year, or girls get put in dog cages and beat? WE dont have a hazing problem at all! :rolleyes:

haha, I love my school, and I love my own chapter, but the stories I hear....

(disclaimer: they're stories and i have no idea if they are true.... but they could be....)

and the problem with the risk management isnt that we dont have it-- because we do. We have alcohol prevention programs, LOTS of rules, all the sororities had to go dry, even if their national weren't (this was a few years ago, i dont know if there are any national sororities that ARENT dry anymore...) the problem is its not ENFORCED. Rutgers is trying to shut down the greek system and instead of helping the situation, they ignore what goes on, shut down a chapter when its bad and give a slap on the wrist when its not so bad. That isnt helping anything.

FSUZeta 12-22-2003 06:55 PM

some of the suggestions are terrific-especially the one about the sororities trading information at their respective educational'standards meetings. it would truly further the panhellenic spirit.

but going back to the statement that initiated this long thread, i would not agree that panhellenic, either on the local or national basis, should execute "caps" on membership to help out "smaller" chapters. there could be a myriad of reasons why a particular chapter is small. trying to force people to join would not work-if joining the group is not an attractive possibility in the "free market" recruitment process, it will not be in the forced atmosphere either. there may be a few who would join simply because they want to belong to a glo, and ofcourse the smaller chapter will have girls who like them and want to join them anyway- they would've joined the smaller chapter in the free market recruitment scenario,too.maybe the answer is the small chapters national organization taking responsibility for giving special attention and aid to the smaller chapters to help make them stronger. while it would be nice for the other glo's on the smaller chapters campus to help out, ultimately the responsibility should be on the shoulders of the national organization.


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