According to the commentary yesterday, it was said that girls are chosen from the "pre-school" age to become gymnasts. They don't live with their families, and the families are ok with it. They were talking about the "veteran" of the Chinese team....the one who's "20" and said that at one point of her training, she wanted to leave gymnastics and be with her parents. But b/c her parents knew what it meant to be on the Chinese team, that they told her "no."

Regarding the age, I seriously doubt the girls think they are living a lie. It seems to me that the gov't issued passports are only for the Olympics, especially since they didn't show birth certificates. I also don't think the girls care IF their ages were changed. This isn't the first time that China has done this. I remember in '96 when I watched the olympics (this one had Keri Struggs, Dominique Moceanu, etc) I saw the Chinese girls and noticed they looked about my age, and I was 11. That is why Bela made the comment about the age....he's been around for many years and he's been able to see it first-hand.

I really don't see the difference if they were 14 or 16. They blew the U.S. out of the water, and even if Alicia had landed on her feet instead of her ass, I don't think the U.S. would have beat the Chinese for the gold. If those girls had legitimately waited til they were 16, imagine how much BETTER they would be. The U.S. would have definitely lost by more than 2.3 points.

I know a lot will probably disagree with me, but I think the age limit should be lowered. I don't understand why gymnasts have to be 16, but there were divers who were 15, and there was a British athlete who was around 13-14.

When did the mandatory age come into effect? If I remember correctly, Dominique Moceanu was 14 (just shy of her 15th birthday) when she competed in 1996.

I'm not sure when the age thing came into play, But Dominique was just shy of her 15th birthday (she turned 15 on the 30th of September).

I seem to remember them saying (back in 1996) that Dominique would be the last 14 year old to be eligible - like maybe after 1996 the age was made 16.

I agree that China deserved the gold, but I also agree that the US was underscored on beam.

From reports, they are "chosen" at around the age of 3, based upon body type and flexibility, to go to gymnastics training centers where they are trained to perform. They do not live with their parents any more, and in fact are given very little time to even visit them. Everything is paid for. It is a well oiled machine. Russia, Romania, East Germany, etc used to use the same system - and they dominated. Now, that they are more "westernized" they don't have the same resources available and their level of competition has dropped. The value of having very young athletes is that they have less fear and feel less pressure than older athletes. Think about how you felt back when you were 12 or 13 - Stress? What's that? (wish I could go back there sometimes:o)

Our US athletes don't start training until they are older, AND their parents have to pay for all of it. All participants at the Olympics have been "training" on their own for this for years and have paid MUCHO dinero to get to this level of competition. From gymnastics to swimming, volleyball, softball, diving, sailing etc. our athletes' parents pay for private tutoring, club teams, travelling, equipment,....ALL of the expenses. I know that my friends who are competing at the Olympics this year in sailing have been not only training for years, but FUND RAISING as well. They get very little funding from the USOC or US Sailing, most of the money they spend to attend worldwide events (which incudes not only the boat and gear, but transporting the boat overseas, and all of their expenses - travel, hotel, food) either comes out of their own pockets (if they're rich-few and far between:cool:) or from finding sponsors or private donations. Three weeks ago, my very good friends lost their major sponsor (an investment bank firm - figure that:rolleyes:) and found out they were $33,000 in debt leading up to the event. They quickly contacted people in the sailing community and have raised somewhere around $28,000, whew! But, it is a HUGE sacrifice... They cannot work because the training takes up too much time. They have to leave their families for LONG stretches of time. But, it is worth it to represent your country at the Olympics:).

Sorry - end of rant...


It's amazing that our athletes do as well as they do because we are definitely not starting out on a level playing field with "state" funded athletes.:(

woops - cross posted with epchick

:(

has anyone else read this?
http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/new...=afp&type=lgns

I don't think I would've gone as far as blaming the delay in television feeds/ etc for alicia's lack of concentration but it is an interesting theory...but at the same time when it gets to that level of competition shouldn't they have extraordinary high levels of concentration??

sometimes i kind of wonder how great of a program the U.S. would have if we adopted those methods but making minor changes such as still having the emphasis on education and etc?? Does anyone know WHY they changed the age of eligibility?

The U.S. would never adopt those type of methods. The Chinese girls really don't have a choice, and if the U.S. did that, you know people would start claiming kidnapping & child abuse, along with all sorts of things.


The comments Marta made just seem like something a coach would say. Kinda typical when your team doesn't come in first, and you want to blame someone other than yourself. Alicia messed up, she tried to overcorrect on the balance beam and fell off, and she just couldn't get back her concentration for floor exercise.

The age of eligibility was raised for health reasons. At the 1996 Olympics there was a lot of talk about how small the gymnasts were becoming, including Dominique M. They were just getting smaller and smaller, and many people feared that eventually we would be promoting 60-lbs. 8th graders as the ideal/only type of gymnast. Pre-pubescent girls' bodies are in a state of tremendous change, and it's no time for them to be starving themselves and putting their bodies through that kind of competition. Two years means a lot at that age, and I'm glad they made the change. Did you notice how much healthier our girls looked out there compared to the Atlanta games? They've been allowed to grow up, get boobs and hips, and their joints will probably thank them for it in 15 years.

I think some of the Chinese gymnasts were probably underage, but even if they weren't, I'm disturbed by how diminutive they were. They had no muscle mass, they were just skin and bones. Those poor girls don't even know their families - they were taken from them at such a young age that they probably don't even remember life at home. Their whole purpose in life has been gymnastics, and I'm sure the Chinese government has done plenty to manipulate their bodies (control diet and workout, postpone puberty) into the perfect tiny packages that gives them an advantage in gymnastics. It's pathetic that a government can get away with it, let alone be rewarded. And the Chinese govt. does this with MANY of its Olympic athletes, not just the gymnasts. I think our athletes - especially the gymnasts - should be very proud that they've been able to accomplish just as much, if not more, without that type of machine.

During the men's gymnastics competition, the commentator said that the Chinese coach had said that he would jump off the highest building in Beijing if his team didn't win. That is sad, and I'm soooo glad that our athletes and coaches aren't made to feel that their whole purpose in life is the Olympics. I do wonder what will happen to the Chinese athletes that don't win; as someone else here said, when their whole life as they know it has revolved around the Olympics, what happens when it all goes away?

Then again, I think he just articulated what many Americans are thinking. It's a joke to have the rule (gymnasts must be 16) if it is not enforced.

isn't Oksana Chusovitina on the German team?? if soo she's effin AMAZING!!! And i'm secretely pulling for her to take silver since i'm hoping Alicia can walk away with something..

I def. did notice how much healthier the gymnasts look today as opposed to Atlanta. And those Chinese women def. didn't have any muscle mass (it's kind of sad).. I never really considered the health risks that were involved in those girls being so young and that small.. In that case I'm glad that the rule was enforced. I'm very curious to find out what actually does become of former gymnastic olympians in China it doesn't seem like they have that many options which is kind of sad.

Can I just say that I really don't like the super-shiny leotards though? It looks like armor and not very comfortable.

And, the parents know how lucrative it is for the family. I feel bad for the exploitation of the kids

They won't lie about their ages their whole life.. probably only for the competitions. The "shelf life" of gymnasts probably isn't that long anyway since they [the country] will want to send their younger girls eventually since they are smaller, lighter, less afraid and all those other reasons they pick young girls.

There were many websites found with the real ages of some of those girls, and at least half of them are under 16. But they had passports (issued by the Government of course :rolleyes:) so they are able to compete. They will probably only use their fake age for another year or two for competitions only and by then China will have the next best girls to put in competitions.

And I don't know the Chinese culture, but I don't think they will feel bad about it when they grow up. It's just how they are condition them from infancy.

Take the little girl who sang their national anthem while the other "cuter, flawless" girl was the one on TV for the opening games. She singing girl said she didn't regret it and that it was "an honor" that they chose to use even just her voice.

It is really sad that they are taken from their families and only see them maybe once a year to be put in this 'machine', but their families are the ones who sent them there. Like someone has already mentioned the families know how lucrative it can be to have a gymnast son/daughter.

LOCH-TE
LOCH-TE
LOCH-TE

:)

We have some amazing looking swimmers. The eyes on Peirsol and Lochte are incredible.

I guess I'm too cynical. ;) I can't help but picture some ambitious journalist doing a 'where are they now' segment, or a helimom who can't let go making some effort to track them down in the future. I know they won't be gymnasts for much longer, but I don't think it's completely unlikely that someone will try to prove they cheated in the future, in which case the girls would have to continue living an alleged lie.

I guess if there is some kind of statute for having a medal taken away for cheating, then it wouldn't matter. But if it's proven in 4 years that one of those girls wasn't 16 (which like it or not, is the rule, and breaking it is technically cheating, even if they won on merit), wouldn't the IOC have something to say about it?

I don't know, I still feel sorry for them for the possibility that they may be under 16, but I tend to feel empathy for people in odd ways sometimes.

I wish I had time to write more, but anyone interested in the horror that is the Chinese sports system, read this article from the NY Times a few weeks ago:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/21/sp...00&oref=slogin

It's horrifying

:eek: @ Jonathan Horton's biceps! Welcome to the gun show! :D

Yes, and he is quite a cutie.

We have to remember that the current Chinese culture is one of allowing only one child - so if your not-quite-as-desired daughter was selected to do ANYTHING by the government, it truly is an honor for that whole family. Hey, maybe the government even lets them have a second child!

All those who posted about their health and lack of muscle mass are completely on the money! When you see a healthy, 5'3" American teenager do a tumbling run, then a 4'6" Chinese preteen do one, who is more likely to step out of bounds? I feel sorry for those children, because they will probably never really mature properly and never learn the supposed real goal of the Olympics - sportsmanship.

Re: the one-child thing, another messed up thing about China is that because families plan for only one child, it's been demonstrated that the number of boy babies being born is exceeding the number of girl babies (various cultural reasons - valuing a male heir, etc). Basically people are selectively aborting females.

It's been theorized that this will lead to massive social problems, starting NOW, in China.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5953508
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,281722,00.html

Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/21/sp...00&oref=slogin

That article is definitely horrifying. It confirms all of our suspicions about the lack of quality of life for post-olympians. I think what makes it the most sad is that the guy the article mainly focused on is dying from a liver injury and they still wouldn't let him quit.

And as far as the Chinese families only being allowed to have one child and aborting alot of non-male babies.. eventually there aren't going to be enough women to go around.. I think I'm more shocked that it hasn't already reached that point yet.

^^^^on a much, much lighter note, the brothers at jib jab have come up with their way to honor the olympics: http://sendables.jibjab.com/category/sports#
sorry no swimming

I don't think i'm understanding what you are saying. What does muscle mass have to do w/ stepping out of bounds?

And about the one-child thing. They are allowed to have more than one child. I think it might depend on the province but I do know that many of the Chinese that lived in my dorm had at least one sibling.

They are allowed more than one child if they live in a rural area. This rule is explained well here:

http://geography.about.com/od/popula...a/onechild.htm

Because Asian women tend to be smaller, I don't think it was fair for the US media to compare the Chinese team to the US team, since there isn't an Asian athlete in the women's artistic gymnastics team. I did compare the Chinese team with the Japanese team, and there is a good 1 1/2"-2" difference on average for height and about 5-8 lb in weight. Many of the Japanese girls were around 4'11" and 85 lb, pretty normal for a 16 year old gymnast, I think. There was one tiny girl who is 4'7" but she isn't being singled out.

The smoking gun has been discovered (and promptly taken off the internet by the Chinese gov't media).

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...sts/index.html

Soooooo . . . even between the Asian women, the Chinese team is significantly shorter and about 10% lighter?

Soooooo . . . like, maybe a couple of years younger?

This may have been just me, but from the non-sports side, was anyone a little bothered by Mary Carillo's (sp?) talking about Chinese cuisine last night? She tried a bunch of different things (fried Scorpion, duck's feet, etc.) and made it seem like some "Fear Factor" event. I can understand that it's not what we eat here, but she was making the comments right in front of the people who prepared the food. It annoyed me a bit, like it was playing right into the "Ignorant American Tourist" stereotype. Not to mention that it's a bit rude to turn your nose up at someone's cooking when they're standing right there.

I don't know; maybe I've been watching too much Anthony Bourdain, but that whole segment was kind of ridiculous.

Question: Does anyone know if the rule states that you actually have to actually be 16 or if it's that you have to turn 16 the year you compete?

Because one girl on the Japanese team doesn't turn 16 until September. Unless there's some sort of typo.

Ooo, take the gold back, TAKE THE GOLD BACK!!!

(money says it'll never happen)

This is what the SI article said: So technically, she's eligible.

OK thanks.

Change of topic....

Ooooooh... Federer-er-er just lost! Holy Moly!

I was really hoping for another Nadel/Federer final.

No WAY!!! OMG!!! What a bummer for him, BUT what a coup for the guy who beat him (and for his country) Who was it?

James Blake beat him!

Oh he is simply deee-lish.

I thought I saw headlines that both Williams sisters were upset as well?

Mary Lou Retton was on the Today Show this morning and she's still as darling as ever.

Oh, OK, then it's all good:) Go Team USA!!!