Well, I also think that Tech is more often talked about as the third flagship school. Although that doesn't mean that Texas State isn't also deserving.

Another thing would be that Tech is a Big 12 school, and while Texas State has an awesome football program, it's not division IA. As far as I know at least. Having a big football team helps Tech a LOT in the PR department.

Both Tech and State have their own University Systems as do A&M and UT. Actually Texas State's subsidiary institutions are more well-known that Tech's. To me at least.

Well, the Carnegie Institute for the Advancement of Teaching studies profiles of different types of institutions and ranks them according to their major focus. They rank according to many, many different categories but are well known for studying doctoral programs nationwide. Actually the "Research I" category seems to have been phased out in the 90s, and the methodology changed a bit, as discussed here and here.

The former "Research I" category is now called "Research Universities (very high research activity)". The other categories are for "high" activity and for generalized doctoral research Universities. It's based on funding awarded to research, number of doctoral programs, number of doctorates granted per year, and maybe some other measures. A list of the "very high" schools is here. The only Texas schools on the list are A&M, UT, and Rice. They list both Tech and UTEP in the "high" category. The list of all Texas schools in the "high" category is here. Texas State isn't in the "high" or the regular research category. (The Texas schools in the "Doctoral Research Universities" category are here.) My hunch is that Texas State may not have enough doctoral programs to qualify but I don't know that for sure.

The exact methodology for categorizing different institutions is available on a Excel file accessible from this page.

Hope that helps. These categories are mostly well-known to professors, Ph.D. students, foundations that grant research grants, etc. They don't mean one school is "better" than another (and they're certainly not trying to measure that) but really identify where the most extensive and diverse research is going on... I know one of my sorority sisters is in a doctoral program at UTEP... so you're not losing any love from me! :)

*I hope all those links point to the correct pages! Whew!

All of Texas State sports except football are currently IA.

Football will be IA in the next few years - I don't recall exactly because I HATE WHAT COLLEGE FOOTBALL HAS BECOME. But that's a different rant.

Texas State was selected as a Best Western College by U.S. News and World Report and a Best Buy by Princeton Review. I hate those ranking things, but if they are going to exist, I guess I should spread the word.

And let me state here that I believe the undergraduate experience is just as, if not more, important as the graduate programs. Too often the focus is on the graduates, and the undergrads get short-shrift. You reach more students through the undergraduate program, and one thing I LOVED about my education at Texas State was that I was taught by actual professors - only one graduate assistant (in Spanish). My classes were small, and I never felt like I was just a number. I really only had two large classes - physics and psychology.

On the football thing--only mentioned it because it could be a reason for the greater visibility of Texas Tech.

As I emphasized, the Carnegie categories are not meant to rank colleges but categorize them. They have a multitude of rankings based on undergraduate measures as well. I personally am with you on the undergrad experience thing. I went to a liberal arts college!

HOWEVER, when they (the Texas legislature & lt. gov) say they want to create a third flagship institution what they have actually been talking about is a research-focused institution:

http://media.www.dailytexanonline.co...-3191142.shtml

I'm guessing the real unstated goal here is to create another institution that would make the Carnegie "very high" list.

My position has always been that they should choose another campus--and I think Tech, Texas State, and UTEP are all great candidates--and get it ranked on the list (if that's indeed the goal) rather than starting completely from scratch. I'm not critiquing Texas State at all. At. All.

Red Turrets . . .
 

No worries - I do have a bit of a problem with those (not you - not you!) who don't appreciate the greatness which is Texas State (!). Not that I'm biased - just because my daughter is the third generation to go there . . . but my grandfathers went to SMU and SFA, so we're not TOTALLY Texas State oriented.

Now that Bobby Knight is gone from Texas Tech, wonder if they will get as much sport coverage . . .:rolleyes:

I saw the University of North Texas mentioned on the high list. That's another school making noise about moving it up a notch in the rankings. That is one of the reasons they are trying to expand their greek visibility (or so I hear) and moving from identifying themselves as a regional university to a more diverse school that attracts people from everywhere not just North Texas.

That's great!! I hope she's enjoying herself at UTEP and here in El Paso. You know I never appreciated UTEP (in fact we were trained in high school to call it Screw-TEP) until I went to school in California.

In California 90% of my classes were taught by lecturers who didn't have Ph.D. I know UTEP isn't super superior, but we are taught by actual professors, and we have some good ones. (So I know exactly what you mean SWTXBelle)

I'm really hoping that UTEP opening up for NPC expansion brings more emphasis into student life

Living in El Paso NPC expanison would be great. In Houston and Miami colleges were so involved in volunteer programs around the city. The doesn't happen in El Paso and I assume its strictly from the number of students involved.

Attached in an article that appeared Fri. in USA Today about how sucess the 10% program has been at UT and AM.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200...gesathingortwo

http://www.statesman.com/news/conten...14toptier.html

Saw that today and it made me think of this thread.

And it has the phrase "top tier." LOL.

surprised SMU wasnt named

Uh, SMU is not a public school so there is nothing that the Texas legislature could do to raise it to "top tier" status.

I wasn't even sure what the article meant by top tier, but it is clear that they're discussing what can be done for public schools, not private. If you're thinking private there are certainly many contenders - SMU, Baylor, TCU, etc.

The article mentioned three "top-tier" universities in Texas: University of Texas, Texas A&M and Rice.

Last time I checked, Rice was a private university. I think the previous poster was mentioning that while the article's writer *did* consider Rice top-tier, SMU was not considered in the same league.

I also tend to think that what they really meant by "top tier" in that article is "Research I University" and I don't think SMU would qualify in that regard as it is more of a liberal arts college - a prestigious one to be sure, but not a place where professors are primarily focused on research.

That's just my general impression from the article.

I agree with you there - as much I love SMU, it is not a Research I uni.

Isn't Rice in the Houston area? So the comment they made about Houston needing a "tier-one" university is invalid because they already have one.

If they are going to only pick one of the 'contenders' it should be in an area where one of the 3 isn't in (so not in Houston or the Austin/College Station area).

I kinda figured that they'd focus on Dallas. (Again i'm biased) but GOD FORBID they give a "top tier" status to somewhere outside of the DFW/Austin/Houston area.

UT-Dallas has been mentioned.

I think they are talking non-private institution--Houston needs a Tier 1 that is public (not that I agree with the statement, given there are other areas of the state that probably need it more).

And yes--the article is referring to research university status and nothing else. I believe this is on the Carnegie rating scale. There are several schools in contention to be the next Tier 1 in Texas... so likely it will not just be one that succeeds but many.

UNT would loooooooooooove to be the next Texas flagship. My entire time there that is all the administration would talk about. When I was a student though I just didn't "see" it. UNT is a really big commuter campus. They do offer a lot of great programs, I think I just always "saw" a "flagship" school as a place students want to live on and be around all the time with tons of school spirit (a'la A&M or Texas). When I was there the school spirit was pretty small, but it's been a few years since I graduated so maybe things have changed. Their greek system has expanded a lot (a few IFCs and 2 NPCs added in the last 3 yrs) and I think the sorority row that the school put there a few years ago was partly because the other big Texas schools have greek homes for all the GLOs. I know the school has several research facilities but I don't know anything else about them. They've also improved their UNT-Dallas campus in the last couple of years.

Frankly, if the Leg is thinking in terms of practicality, Texas Tech is probably already really really really close to being "Tier 1" so it would make sense to work on them first. Also in a less-served area.

I have a question... which is "better" (academically, eg, which is harder to get into) - UT-Dallas or UT-Arlington?

I've always heard UT-Dallas, but that's just hearsay.

Ut-Dallas has a very strong engineering program and good location. I have heard Techs location is not in their favor.

woot. At least no one is saying those that couldn't get into A&M and UT go to Tech [not the case for me, I prefer the Lubbock setting over Austin].

Here at Tech we hear that Texas State, U of Houston and [of course] Tech all have chances of being the next flagship [and I agree that either Texas State or Tech should be next]... actually I read an article that pointed out the strengths and weaknesses of both. Besides those schools, I think many people do leave out UT-Dallas [it was waaaaaaay too close to home for me...]. They do have a strong engineering and medical program [I think....] which is due to their close proximity to TI and the "Silicon Valley" in Dallas and various hospitals.
As for UNT, I don't think they are flagship material [I don't even think Tech's there yet...] but with more funding who knows? Their engineering program is not well established, but they have a really strong Music program. Not trying to pick a fight, I think they need to work on bringing up strong programs in all other areas before they can be flagship.

I haven't been to UTEP nor do I know much about them to state an opinion

I've heard that UT-Arlington is harder to get into.

I still don't want to see UT-Dallas or University of Houston get it. It would be beneficial for the whole state if they had more flagship schools across the state instead of located in the Austin/DFW/Houston area. There is more to Texas than just those 3 cities. Besides I haven't heard anything special about UT-Dallas nor U of H for it to be chosen.

UTEP has a VERY strong engineering program, as well as nursing program. UTEP is also really big into research labs & such. Recently, El Paso just got a medical school (the Paul L. Foster Medical School) but I believe that is part of the Texas Tech umbrella and not part of UTEP.

I'm not gonna say that UTEP matchs up to A&M or UT, but it would be nice to have a little recognition for our academics. But I doubt that they will pick UTEP.

lol. i just realized one of my good friends freshman year went to UTEP transferred to Tech and went back after a semester after being homesick. But she would tell us about how pretty the architecture of the buildings were both here and there but how they were totally different [she said something about it being Oriental or Syberian or maybe i'm thinking about the time she went to see the Trans Syberian orchestra... but how here it was really Spanish style]

anywhoo... the Med School in EP is Tech's... and they opened one in Dallas too...

idk about UT Arl. admissions... all my cousins went [or currently go] there and i'm not going to lie... [except for the one currently there waiting to transfer out to law school] they aren't the brightest in the bunch [and they claim to have a right to claim themselves "longhorns" because they go to a school with UT in the name.. RIGHT]

I do support the idea of having a flagship out of the way. From experience i can say having Tech in Lubbock has prob. increased intrest in the city, compared to a normal city in Texas [just an example who has heard of Farmers Branch?]

sorry for any typos. i've been staring at chemical equations all day.

The architecture of UTEP is from Bhutan. There are only a couple of buildings that don't have that architecture (the ones from waaaaay back in the day). They changed the architecture to a Bhutanese style when a former President's wife went to Bhutan & was inspired it. UTEP has close relations with Bhutan because of the architecture & a couple months ago the Prince of Bhutan came and visited.

No matter the letter...they're all Texas schools together
 

I can't believe I'm seeing all of this discussion re: tiers!

My understanding is that UT Dallas is a little harder to get into than UT Arlington.
However, UT Arlington is much bigger than UT Dallas and I always have the impression that there is much more of a campus life there, UT Dallas always seems more like a commuter campus. I could be off on that assumption, but if so I feel like that would give UT Arlington a leg up on Dallas for being in the running to become the next flagship.

Do you think the "lawmakers" that are trying to find the next top tier university will look at the new Forbes.com list?

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/94/..._State_21.html

If they do...then UTEP out ranks all the list of "possible contenders"------I'm pretty shocked!

Apparently 1st spot goes to The University of Dallas, while the last goes to UT-Dallas.

UTEP ranks #7 in Texas, right after Baylor and before Texas Tech.

Interesting about the Forbes list! I would have probably put UTSA as the top UT system school, not UTEP. But I don't really know a whole lot about all that - just basing it on what others have told me about the prestige of various schools. I'm not a Texas native so I don't know it from a college application perspective like I do NC schools.

209 University of Dallas
215 University of Texas, Austin
243 Austin College
260 Texas A&M University
326 St. Mary's University
352 Baylor University
365 University of Texas, El Paso
385 Texas Tech University
431 Texas State University
442 University of Texas, Arlington
444 Abilene Christian University
467 St. Edward's University
502 University of Houston
508 University of North Texas
509 University of Texas, San Antonio
512 Sam Houston State University
513 Texas Christian University
521 University of Texas, Dallas

I gotta say that it looks like something is off with this list. I don't know what their metric is or what the list claims to demonstrate, but if it's prestige/competitiveness, something is off. First off, where is Rice? Did they opt out of Forbes' list? Rice should be on there and it should be the highest ranked school in Texas more than likely. SMU is also missing. And the idea that a University of Dallas degree is more competitive than a UT-Austin degree, or that UD is harder to get into than UT, or even that UD is a "better school" is nonsense to me. And Abilene Christian being ABOVE TCU and UH? That's total crap. I know a thing or two about Abilene Christian and what I know is not good - it's not a good school. Or at least NOT better than TCU or UH and for that matter UNT and UT-D. Some of the other things I could believe depending on what metric they're choosing - like UTEP at #7 for example, but Abilene Christian from what I know of it is pretty flat out crappy. And I still want to know where Rice and SMU are...

It's interesting stuff, though. Although in terms of the legislature, I think what they're interested in is another "research university" and this is definitely not a measure of that.

FWIW, Virginia was on this page too and W&L was the top-ranked school in Virginia. I love W&L and think it's an AWESOME school, but in some contexts at least (definitely in the research u. one) there is an argument to be made that UVA is better. So I dunno. I think Forbes' list might be kind of crappy.

ETA: I just looked at NC's list out of curiosity. UNC and Wake are above Duke - surprising but possibly plausible. Salem being ranked above Davidson though? That's a pile of crap.

What exactly is Forbes' metric???

foebes list
 

We already have a thread on the forbes list in the general chat forum for academics. http://www.greekchat.com/gcforums/sh...ad.php?t=98776

Not sure if I linked it correctly. This disucssion of tiers academically probably ought to be in that forum rather than sorority recruitment.

I have NO idea! The list shocked me as well, but I don't know much about a lot of those schools (like the private ones)

Ok, this is what I found about their "methodology":

1. Listing of Alumni in the 2008 Who's Who in America (25%)

2. Student Evaluations of Professors from Ratemyprofessors.com (25%)

3. Four- Year Graduation Rates (16 2/3%)

4. Enrollment-adjusted numbers of students and faculty receiving nationally competitive awards (16 2/3%)

5. Average four year accumulated student debt of those borrowing money (16 2/3%)

And this is what they said about how they chose the colleges:

Well that's good, but I don't feel like transferring my discussion about Texas to the GL forum, when we've been talking about it for a while now here.

Yea.. I went to UNT, and I can't figure out why it's ranked above TCU either :p Something in that list is not right for sure... which is why I think those types of lists that make "tiers" are all crap anyway

For some reason I thought Austin College was a 2-yr school??

Austin College is a private 4 year university. I do know that it is known for its academics. Back when I went to school, it was considered one of the great schools for students interested in teaching. It's reputation in other subjects has steadily improved since I finished school. I don't know much more about it, but I do know that it has a pretty good academic reputation.

One of my best friends in grad school/Austin went to Austin College for undergrad. You might be confusing it with Austin Community College or something.

Austin College is a liberal arts school and my friend has good things to say about it. They actually have a really strong local fraternity/sorority system. It's interesting to hear about it and how it was different and yet the same as my national GLO experience at a liberal arts school. She wasn't Greek but her husband was - I forget which org.

Who's Who and Ratemyprofessors.com...??!?!?! REALLY?

The others are somewhat more plausible.


DITTO.

Being a Texas girl, this list makes me laugh.

I don't know how some of the aforementioned schools ranked above others... wow.

Austin College and Southwestern College in Georgetown, TX are both listed in the Colleges That Change Lives. CTCL schools tend to be LACs that focus on the actual teaching of the undergraduates rather than on graduate/professional education and/or research. http://www.ctcl.org/about/why-ctcl

Rice is 41 on the Forbes list. IMO, this is way too low considering the caliber of that school. SMU is 186. Southwestern is ranked at 133.

That's interesting. Why do you think it's too low? I think 41 out of 500+ schools is really good. I wonder why Rice nor SMU are listed in the Texas section?

Dis 'n' Dat ...

Is Greek Life as important at Texas A&M and Texas Tech as it is at the Austin campus of the University of Texas? Is recruitment as competitive at Tech and A&M as it is in Austin?

A couple of years ago, TEXAS MONTHLY had a article about the possible creation of third flagship university of the state. Tech was considered to be the logical choice, with its location as a major drawback. Ditto the El Paso campus of the University of Texas. The author of the article theorized that North Texas or Texas State might have a better chance of being designated "flagship." The author also mentioned the possibility of a brand new flagship campus being created in Dallas (more likely) or Houston (less likey). Friends tell me that the third flagship issue is a popular topic for TEXAS MONTHLY and other publications.

A friend's daughter went to St. Edward's in Austin, but she took her ROTC classes at the Austin campus of the University of Texas. She was amazed at the role Greek Life played on the campus and the lengths women went to to get into a sorority. My friend's daughter wasn't too impressed with a lot of the people she met at the Austin campus. She told her father "They may be smart enough to get into the U of T, but the truth is, I wouldn't want to follow a Texas grad into battle nor would I want to have to lead a Texas grad into battle. They are way too full of themselves. They ain't as smart as they think they are."

:rolleyes: