I've known a friend of the family's since I was a kid. She's my mom's friend. She's had these two prairie dogs since I was a kid and I used to go over to her house to play with them all the time. Well, recently, one of them died, so she got three more. Well, anyway my mom called me this past weekend and told me that one of the prairie dogs she had gotten hadn't been eating properly. She had taken him to the vet for the 1st time about 3 months ago.

Anyway, their teeth grow throughout the life of the prairie dog similar to the way they do in rabbits. Well, the growth is normally kept in check by normal wearing action by chewing and grinding of opposing teeth. Well, to make a long story short, like I was saying, she took her pet to her local vet to have his teeth trimmed down a bit. The vet was supposed to anesthetize the prairie dog, but for some odd reason he didn't. After the procedure, he brought the pet back out to her, and told her that anesthesia wasn't needed. What also made it look bad, was his little nose was bleeding too. I don't know what would have caused that though. Anyway, that's not the big problem. That was over a month ago, and now his teeth are growing in a different direction causing major problems in his eating habits. The vet charged her $30.00. She didn't want to go back to that vet, so she'd been calling around to different vets to see if they could fix the problem, but none of them like dealing with prairie dogs. (they're illegal) not to have but to transport or purchase. Anyway, she did end up finding one. The vet she found charges $120.00. She had the procedure done again, properly this time. The problem is the teeth are still growing in the wrong direction. I told my mom that she's either going to have to pay $120.00/month to continue the trimming because I doubt they're going to grow back the right way now. They're eventually going to grow to the point where he won't be able to eat or drink properly. She's probably going to have to put him down. Some vet.

Unlike people, animals are unable to describe their symptoms and signs. I read some of the ealier posts, and was reading about some of the medications that are prescribed to patients. What I've posted above reminds me of how things can go wrong. Like when we go to the doctor, we assume that the drugs that are prescribed to us have been carefully tested to make sure they're both safe and effective. Most of the time they are, but sometimes the drugs can cause more problems then they solve. Probably because the FDA hasn't adequately monitored the pharmaceutical industry.

Six weeks of peds? Yikes - that's a lot to learn in so short a period.

I am looking forward towards OB a little bit. I had a couple deliveries while I was on family so I have some idea what to expect. Plus the resident on that service is AWESOME, so that'll be good.

I plan on taking both CK and CS in November, I've scheduled a month working with our student run clinic for that four weeks, so with only 8 clinic nights the whole month, I figured it'd be a great time. I'm waiting to hear from an away rotation at the moment which will totally alter my schedule if I don't get it. Considering it's in August, it's super frustrating that I haven't gotten a response one way or the other yet...

Other than that, hard to believe that I have less than 3 weeks of 3rd year left. Looking back it's been a really crazy year, and it's unbelievable the amount of stuff I've learned (and forgotten)...but it's definitely been a year that's reaffirmed my desire to be a doctor.

BigRedBeta question
 

I have a question for BigRedBeta. Last night I was watching the Discovery Channel and it was talking about how fetal cells may be able to keep breast cancer from developing. I don't remember everything, just some of the things that grabbed my attention. It said that fetal cells surviving in a mother's tissues may fight off breast tumors. I myself also read that women with children have a lower risk of getting breast cancer than childless women. It also said that during pregnancy, a small number of fetal stem cells cross the placenta into the mother's bloodstream and can survive for decades in her skin, liver, brain, and some other organ that I can't remember. I think it was the spleen. But anyway, it was just basically saying that fetal cells repair damage to some of the tissues. Have you heard of anything like this in your field of study?

Not sure about the fetal stem cell thing except that research as to what these cells do when they're there is pretty new (the fact that the cells do cross the placenta has been fairly well known for a while I believe).

As for the childless vs. children most of the "female parts" cancers have prolonged estrogen exposure as a risk factor. Therefore early menarche, late menopause and zero pregnancies increases your risk for endometrial, ovarian, and breast cancer. Given the newness of research exploring the function of fetal stem cells, I imagine there's little way to quantify how much of the risk reduction is due to their presence at this point (and I think even when there's a better idea of what they do, it'll still be tough to put a number on it).

Also, you don't have to be so formal about my "field of study"...I'm just a third year medical student (well a third year for two more weeks) who happens to read a lot of science news stuff rather than medical text books...

OK, I know nothing about prarie dogs-but can she just have those teeth pulled instead of putting it down? The reason I ask is one of my cats has maybe 12 teeth left because of dental disease. I just had the vet remove the teeth and it's been 6 years. He's a very happy, spoiled cat.

Rodents are very different when it comes to teeth. But she shouldn't be making pets out of wildlife anyways. Way to abuse an animal for its whole life.

Not to mention, the CDC has banned the sale, trade, breeding, and new capture of prairie dogs.

Thanks for this. I just thought it may have been a possibility that fetal cells stimulate the mother's immune system or something. I wasn't sure.

A 1st year vet student...well, 2nd year in a few months, chatting with a 4th year med student, makes it kind of hard to be less formal. I won't be as formal next time. lol :p

Thanks again.

RaggedyAnn, kstar is right. Most rodent and lagomorph species do well on diets based on commercial laboratory rodent pellets or rabbit pellets. Prairie Dogs can and usually are maintained on rabbit pellets, alfalfa or grass hay as well as assorted vegetables, so without their teeth, it would make it quite difficult for them to be able to eat. Plus, a few years ago pet prairie dogs were involved in an outbreak of monkeypox disease. Like kstar said, the Center for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services issued a joint order that banned the transport, sale or release of pet prairie dogs. Shortly after that, I think the CDC along with the Food and Drug Administration made the rule permanent. I think there also may be some new restrictions as well, but I'm not all the way sure.

Where's that picture of the possum again where the person posts on a telephone pole about a "lost cat"...

Seeing my husband's face reading the sign--now that was funny...

It's like the Jack in the Box commercial were they had a spelling bee and the kid was asked to spell "Ciabatta" and he starts it off with "J"...

I've never heard of that one.

I think it was this one:

http://www.digyourowngrave.com/cat-f...very-friendly/

Best resolution of the ones that I could find.

o.k. lol lol now that was funny.:D

I wanted to post this. Tomorrow will be my 1st surgery I'll be assisting in. I was supposed to do my 1st teeth cleaning a few weeks ago, but that fell through, because the cat had severe dental disease. We had to send her to a dental specialist.

This one is a go though. This time it isn't a cat. It's a dog (a Labrador Retriever). We're going to be treating her for hip dysplasia. I'm really excited! This will be great experience for me too.:)

Good luck!!! What time is your procedure? How much are you going to help? Will you be making the incision or closing up? I know you will do well!

Okey, I just learned how to bleed 50 ul in a hematocrit tube from the saphenous vein of a live awake mouse... The trick for me was to gently grip the mouse like a "snake hold" so that they merely accept their fate and proceed to get to the saphenous.

Interesting procedure... Now to do live retro-orbital bleeding...

We started at 10:15am. Actually, I did more than I thought I was going to do.:) Actually, hip dysplasia can also be hereditary which was the case with this puppy. She's a little over 5 months old and she only had a moderate case of it. We used a procedure called JPS. (Juvenile pubic symphysiodesis) I made the incision with supervision of course, but the Dr. did the rest. I did help through the surgery though. Basically, how it works is we make the incision in the lower abdomen, and the pubic bone is cauterized using a surgical cautery probe. This actually stops the pubic bone from growing, and as the rest of the pelvis continues to grow, the hip sockets kinda end up rotating slightly outward and downward. So basically, when it's all said and done, the repositioned hip sockets hold the head of the femur more firmly, which pretty much eliminates the problem. In some cases it just reduces it though.

I lucked up, because if it would have been a Triple pelvic osteotomy, then I don't think he would have let me get as involved. TPOs are really expensive too. Yikes!

For the most part though, it went well. I learned a lot. 3 more weeks before I start my 2nd year.:p

ETA: When school starts I'll go back to working part time again, but I think I'm going to volunteer at one of the animal shelters, if I have time.

o.k. details, details please...:p This sounds really interesting.

Wow, we always do eye or caudal veins in rodents. Unless we are doing a cardiac stick.

I don't think I'd ever be able to find the saphenous in a rodent.

I decided. I'm still going to talk to my boss tomorrow, and also some of my professors at school in a couple of weeks, but I've decided to go into cardiology. It was either that, general health care, or orthopedic surgery.

The one thing that you all will learn as vets, ESPECIALLY if you go into lab animal med, is the dun dun daaaa IACUC out of OLAW. And you all get the dubious duty to write the protocols and procedures. So as we have it, we cannot do repeat eye bleeds than once per week and no more than 1/10th of the body weight of the mouse... So since I started working in a hematology lab that studies blood disorders and we have GM mice that have hemaglobinopathies, and need repeated bleedings per week, we are allowed saphenous vein. We only collect 50 ul in heparin coated hematocrit tubes.

If you can do the caudels, you can do the saphenous, they surround the "thigh" part from the hind legs and you use eye ointment to find them. Once you see them, use a 16 gauge needle to stick and once the blood pumps out, you just collect.

Apparently it is enough for the the HemoVet for the "mouse" setting.

That would be a WONDERFUL selection!!! :) That's my area of expertise. But, I ONLY know the research end of it and not the clinical diagnosis end. It would be VERY nice to work out the imaging technology on the hearts of all animals and the genetic differences between the animals--especially the developmental or the stem regeneration of them... It is not "translatable" as one thinks it is from the research to human clinical trials...

Yep. Thanks AKA_Monet. I talked to my boss yesterday morning. He was gone all day Monday for surgeries. I asked the general vet who was there though, and she thought it was a good specialty to go into. When I did talk to him, he thought it was a good choice too. When I first started there I told him that I wanted to eventually have my own practice. He said that about 10% of domestic animals have some kind of heart disease, so it would be good for me.

I didn't know you were an expert in that area. Wow! Small world huh?:) Well, I know who I can come to for questions when I'm stumped at 3am.:p

Yep. It's very different. Well, they don't have atherosclerosis and the type of heart attacks that afflict people. In animals the problem is usually a weak heart muscle, with enlargement of one or both sides of the heart. Sometimes there's inadequate heart valve action or a rhythm that's too quick or to slow. Like in humans, cholesterol is really not a factor.

At work we generally look to see if there's a bluish discoloration of the tongue and gums during or after exercise. Sometimes there may be heavy breathing, wheezing, those sort of things which are signs of heart problems.

On another note, a lot of people don't want to talk to me. A lady called yesterday and she was freaking out. After her cat gave birth to kittens she freaked because her cat was eating the placenta. I tried to explain to her that it was normal and why she was eating it. She didn't want to speak to me because "I'm not a vet." She demanded that I put a vet on the phone.

Some people.:rolleyes:

Aside from "heart worm" that dogs and cats get, it is my understanding that several mammals (except primates) and non-mammals have 3-chambered hearts, which are cause for differing developmental patterns. I know in the mouse, the 2 ventricles are more pointy than humans and that if the apex is rounded, there is a ventricular dysfunction as seen on echo.

Horses and cattle have different kinds of hearts, even at the molecular level, like their Titan and myosin chains are much larger than a humans. However, the first tests on statins were done on mice, rats, rabbits, then pigs and humans. Pigs have the most similar hearts to primates... Dogs are the next group people study, until the animals gets heart worm. I believe pigs get some kind of heart infection, also. Humans get cocksakie virus and von Wildebrand's factor. Rarely do they get similar infections as seen in animals--but it has been known to happen. Pneumonia is another one humans get.


Wait till you get the schizophrenic that thinks the aliens are messing around with her cat... That's happen to a vet friend of mine... LOL...

Just remember to say you'll take a message to give to the vet and if possible they will call you back. LOL. ;)

Yep. You're right. It depends on the animal. It's different from invertebrates all the way to fish. Actually, AKA_Monet, heart infection can infect pigs as well as other animals, but heart disease with subsequent heart failure is even more frequent in small animal medicine. All it takes is a faulty heart to cause high blood pressure, and fluid build up within the abdomen and/or the lungs. I mean, of course that depends on which side of the heart is involved. The crazy thing about heart disease in most animals, is if the latter structures become waterlogged, oxygen exchange is reduced even further. It can be just about anything. Different diseases involving the heart valves or heart muscle can lead to heart failure too.

I read where you mentioned heartworms. Actually, by far the most common type of heart disease seen in dogs, aside from that caused by heartworms, is mital insufficiency, I think (correct me if I'm wrong) involves the heart valve separating the left atrium from the left ventricle. To my understanding, if this valve becomes diseased and fails to close properly when it's supposed to, blood is actually allowed to flow back into the left atrium when the left ventricle contracts.

With heartworms, it's more common in dogs than cats. Some of the medications that are used to get rid of heartworms, cause more problems than people think. I'm not sure what the % is, but of all reported deaths caused by drug reactions, most of them were from heartworm preventative medicine. I'll bet it's almost half though. I honestly think more vets should practice holistic medicine. To my understanding, some have been experimenting with a homeopathic preventive made from microfilaria infected blood. With the right funding, I think this actually may eventually provide a true alternative to drug use. Wild animals like wolves and coyotes are quite resistant to heartworms. Studies have shown they start getting very light infestations and then become immune.

Yep. People can have some of the same heart problems that animals suffer. As far as heartworms are concerned, we can get the microfilaria from infected mosquitoes, but they never make it to the heart where they mature into adult worms. There have been studies that have shown them making it to the lungs instead. Nothing serious, they only cause ring like cysts. I read somewhere that these rings have been mistaken for cancer. That would be pretty scary if we actually could get infected with mature worms though. Have you ever seen a heartworm infested heart? It's unbelievable. They look like spaghetti.http://sp1.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/m4/3019004906 Edited for greekchat. lol :p

lol. I'm not surprised. We get some of the most hilarious calls. We laugh and talk about some of them for months.:p

kstar if you see this, did you know the ban on prairie dogs have been lifted? I'm not quite sure though if it's in every state or not. Now, they're probably going to be sold in pet stores and if/when this happens, people are going to buy them thinking it's the same as buying a gerbil or hamster.:rolleyes:

ETA: But they are SO adorable.:) http://sp1.yt-thm-a01.yimg.com/image/25/f11/75948827

Yeah, I noticed, I was annoyed, but according to the OK Dept. of Wildlife, they are going to remain on our lists of restricted wildlife. I can only hope other states do the same.

We have one at Wildcare (local wild animal rehab) that used to be a pet, but now is COMPLETELY neurotic because of it. He freaks out when placed on grass or dirt. :(

Is he the Howard Hughes of prairie dogs?

You know that Dr. Fishbein ;) developed the Danio renio stem cell heart cell regeneration... Pretty interesting stuff. And their hears are like 3 small-large chambers...

I forgot about the pig infections. Should know that because my husband rattles that crap off all the time... LOL.

My last psychotic professor would have to disagree with you on that, he thinks it is all vessel wall status tied up with the kidneys and the adrenals (subrenals)... The heart just is a pump... LOL... Do NOT deal with his logic anymore.


Is that all breeds of dogs? Or one breed over another? Like you wouldn't see it in a mutt, but you would with particular breeds, like Great Danes, some Laboradors, and maybe one of those "yip yip" dogs... But in ALL dogs?

Also, I forgot what it's call, but all the organs are on the "wrong side"... A few dogs show that kind of gross genetic rearrangement.

lol. I'm not surprised. We get some of the most hilarious calls. We laugh and talk about some of them for months.:p[/QUOTE]

Most of the other stuff sounds like you learning many things and memorizing what you need to know!!! Are you ready for licensure? Good for you though!!!

I've been fighting with little popcorn mice that jump so high right into a plastic bag... And actually, I am rather depressed due to the stuff I had to do to some of them... We are talking close to 50 cages and 100 odd mice...

Yep, I didn't think it was lifted in all states. I'm thinking anyone who has one may still have to get permission from the Center for Veterinary Medicine in those states if they're going to be moving or something. I'm guessing though. I'm really not quite sure how that works.

ETA: I still they're cute.

Most of the other stuff sounds like you learning many things and memorizing what you need to know!!! Are you ready for licensure? Good for you though!!!

I've been fighting with little popcorn mice that jump so high right into a plastic bag... And actually, I am rather depressed due to the stuff I had to do to some of them... We are talking close to 50 cages and 100 odd mice...[/quote]


:eek: at your professor.

Actually AKA_Monet, any dog whether it's an indoor or an outdoor pet, is capable of being infected. From what I've read, there are some 70 species (at least) of mosquitos that can transmit heartworm disease, so it doesn't matter which breed. A lot of times though, like I was saying earlier the severity pretty much just depends on the number of worms present, the immune response of the infected dog, the duration of the infection, and the activity level of the dog.

Yes, yes, yes. lol. I've learned SO much and I do plenty of learning and memorizing what I need to know. I've almost gone through two highlighters, so it's time for a new one.:p But yes, I've learned a lot.

Speaking of mice jumping. Listen to this. Earlier I posted that I bought a tarantula (I was talking about body part regeneration, but I don't think anyone was interested :() but anyway I have one and she's gotten big enough to eat mice. The problem is she can't catch some of the ones I've fed her. They jump and stick on the inside of the top of the aquarium. So I'm familiar with the jumping.:p

lol why are you depressed, what have you been doing to them? I don't think it can be any worse than what I've done to some of them.

It's the sheer number of them... :( I hit my limit. After a passive method, and so many of them, I am needing something stronger than 2 hard alcoholic beverages... Something like Vici or a percoset... :(

As you move up in your field, and review possibly "Lab Animal Medicine", you will find that the duty of the vet is to ensure optimal care of all "research animals". What you find is most folks are clueless as to how to plan for experiments with animal models. They basically breed several cages together, thereby generating 100's of animals that go unused. And because animal costs are high, we wind up euthanizing them...

My personally thoughts are every animal generated needs to be used in research protocols--or most of them. And because we take US Taxpayer funds to finance this research, then it behooves us to make the most of these animal models completely... Well, that is not happening at my institution. Dare I say most of them.

So 100's or 1000's of unusable animal models are resigned to a dubious fate... :(

Just thinking about it will cause me nightmares... This is outside my character... And if I stay on it, I will get pissed.

AKA_Monet this is very interesting. I don't know why this hasn't been discussed before on this thread. I agree with you though. Me personally, I think there needs to be something in place to develop non animal alternatives to the use of animals in research and education. I mean just to kill animals because they're not being used for experiments is not right at all. I think fewer animals can be used to obtain the same amount data or allow more information to be obtained from a given number of animals. I think this would decrease the total number of animals that have to be used. I also think that refinement alternatives would be nice too, because it would lessen animals pain and distress. I mean, think about it. If more refinement alternatives are developed, I think it's appropriate to assume that if a procedure is painful to humans, it will also be painful to animals. Anesthetics and/or analgesics could be used to alleviate any potential pain. That's sad to just euthanize them just because they're not going to be used. I see why it makes you upset. I think this is great topic though.

What you just stated are the OLAW rules... But folks in research, with exceptions, are clueless and to be honest just don't care...

Lately, there are stop-gaps in place: I.e. having approval to do animal experiments shown to the publication journals or the journals retract the paper... Losing laboratory space and privilege to use animals for studies if there are violations.

My lab before this one had GROSS violations. My current lab, does not have too many violations, but the personnel's apathy about "minimizing the use and care of animals" is absent... When there are no ENFORCEABLE PUNITIVE regulations in place, then that permits a lapse in appropriate care and use of laboratory animals...

But my husband told me some of his stories and he had to do large animals, which I would have a tough time doing... And I know some vets that have to do primates, now that's tough overall.

Kind of reminds me of OSHA rules. Companies are supposed to follow the rules or risk fines. Are all the rules followed? No. Probably just enough to keep from getting shut down. The same thing applies to OLAW. It's like you said, it just depends on how closely they're following those rules. I think it's more of just not caring. You should see how inhumane cattle are treated at some of the slaughter houses.:eek::( Maybe I should be a vegetarian. Just a thought.

Though I do think opinions vary on this subject, but technically we really don't have to dissect dead animals or vivisect living ones. I know there are other alternatives, especially with the technology available today. AKA_Monet, I really don't have a problem dissecting dead animals, it's the living ones I'm not a big fan of. Even though there are other alternatives, I don't think dissecting is really necessary because there are other non animal alternatives in which students can learn about physiology and anatomy. Of course, I don't think it's the only way, but a better way. I think it's just as good as or better than either dissection or vivisection. I'm not totally against either way, I just prefer non animal alternatives. I know that many undergraduate and graduate programs, require students to cut apart or dissect specimens that have been prepared for this purpose, or to do experiments on live animals. A lot of times students don't object to it, because they're not aware of other alternatives that are available to them.

Primates? Yeah, that would be difficult for me too. I mean, look at the proteins on the surface of human and chimpanzee cells. I think it's like, out of 9 amino acid chains, there are only something like 5 differences out of a total of over 1,200 amino acid positions. I'm not exactly sure of the exact number, but I think it's somewhere around there though.

Speaking of OLAW, how do you feel about HAPS?

Funny you should mention that since it is my institution that grants the postgraduate institute courses... LOL.

As a researcher, they "generally" do not make us Molecular Geneticists take those kinds of courses unless they want us, to do so... That's the thing, I am learning this AFTER grad school which totally sucks because I feel so behind... And I could have learned surgery long time ago.

<<----- First Year Nursing student 'Trent U'

I'll answer as many questions as I can lol :)

I sat out of school for a while, but I'm going back in Jan. I was there for a year, got married, divorced, and now I'm going back in Jan. I was majoring in biology my 1st year. I'll still be going back for biology and I was thinking about going into dentistry as a profession, but right now I'm undecided. For the most part though, this is a very interesting thread. I'll be asking a lot of questions.

A co-worker of mine was going to school for nursing. She said it was a two year program. Does it depend on what kind of nurse you want to be, or does it matter?

To be a practical nurse you take a 2 year college course but to be a registered nurse you take a 4 year university course. Then you can go ont to get your masters etc

Actually, you can get RN certification after two years of studying at, say, a community college. If you get a bachelors degree in nursing, you get a BSN but you still need to pass a test to get an RN.

Sort of like if someone graduates with an engineering degree, they still have to take their professional engineering exam to get a license.