Then what is the point of having a sisterly bond? If you are willing to throw aside the women you chose to be sisters for ones you now consider to be better, what does that say about your sisterhood? I'd say that's a pretty bad statement.

This whole thread bothers me because I have a sister who was born without her arm from just below the elbow down. It is the LAST thing I think about when I think about her. However it is the FIRST thing new people see when they meet her. Should she be hidden if she could maybe put off some PNMs? Does it matter that she competes and wins beauty pageants? She's gorgeous, but only has one hand. She's a great rusher, but she only has one hand. Some PNMS will NOT be able to get past that.

No way in hell would I shove her in the closet or in the kitchen or whatever just because some PNMs would make stupid judgements because of it.

-And yes being heavy is comparable. Sometimes that's just what size you are-

Another question... if you were the chapter in this situation (competitive Greek school) and you had a National Consultant telling you to "create this image" during recruitment, would you do it? Would you risk hurting the sisters you have to keep your chapter open, or would you take the risks of not and try to find another way to expand your numbers? (Knowing that you might not be successful either way and it could mean the end of your chapter... )

Also - think about weighing the risk of going against what your NO is telling you to do. You are a group of 18 - 22 year old (on average) women who are being told that if you want your chapter to survive, this is what you'll do. How many chapters can look a National Officer in the face and refuse?

If you collected a random group of people you would expect them to cluster around average traits.

Assuming that average is not overweight enough to be "fat," you would expect most groups of girls to not be fat as an aggregate.

Whenever you have a group that significantly deviates from the norm, there is something going on. The larger the deviation the more it makes you wonder. The larger the deviation the more consequences that there are, both good and bad.

If you have a group with a collective GPA of 4.0, you know that people have been selecting for GPA or else some odd social drift has occurred thats resulted in that configuration.

However, after a while that can become self selecting. People with a very high GPA may be attracted to that group out of comfort and people with a lower GPA might feel like the group would be a bad fit for them.

So even though a 4.0 GPA is considered desirable trait, it could actually limit the group's size, because it doesn't reflect the population enough.

The same thing is going to happen if the percentage of girls in the chapter that are overweight enough to be seen as overweight start be out of proportion to the population the chapter is attempting to recruit from.

People are drawn to similarity.

Thats just the way it is.

It's so interesting to talk about stuff like this because you realize how different things are from campus to campus. I'm used to campuses where reputation changes, if they happen at all, take place over a long time. So if you were known as "the fat sorority" hiding the girls during rush wouldn't help.

I'm never going to favor cutting solely on appearance, I don't think (but again, maybe for freak show girl, I'm reserving judgment.), so I can't get behind "better to not give her a bid." But I think one of the reasons why we hear more about this kind of stuff from struggling chapters is that at some chapters the women under discussion never would have gotten bids to begin with.

Does this mean the chapters who cut them have a more authentic sisterhood because they are willing to treat all members the same or a sisterhood more based on appearance because they don't let less attractive people join?

Or are they all the same in attitude but the ones who cut the less beautiful are ultimately more successful at living it out? (which I think is what I most fear.)

Why would having exceptional sisters prevent more sisters from joining the chapter? In my experience, it is only the sisters who are not committed or that do not live up to their expectations that prevent other women from joining, not the sisters who may be carrying a bit of extra weight...:confused:

Uh, no.

What your example is missing is that the groups actively discriminate based on certain traits.

If we were talking about the PNMs self-selecting where they went, we might get your results over time for the reason of comfort in similarity, but not if there's active discrimination. And there is.

The fat girls end up in one group (if they do) not simply because people are drawn to similarity but because they are actively excluded other places.

Please don't blast me for this, but are you saying that your chapter closed?

Do you think it served the sisterhood better not to exist on that campus than it would have to recruited differently?

Ack . . I must not have been clear in my post. I said that after you have built a population profile it become self selecting.

Active selection is discrimination by the group. However, once a group reflects a certain profile it will attract like members and welcome them.

I wouldn't tell anyone who wanted to that they couldn't rush, but I do think weight is a little different in the sense that it gets to be a group identity as the fat group, or so people fear. It seems really unlikely that there'd be a similar fear in your sister's case.

I judge from past posts in different forums.

You are my sister and I should try to be respectful, but since what you said really offended me, I don't care. I am thankful that the women who are on our executive board are of different sizes, shapes, hair color, eye color, etc. They are unique in their own ways when it comes to looks. I would hope that NONE of them share the same opinion you have.

I am SO thankful that my chapter sisters weren't shallow. We've always accepted anyone as long as they were a fit to the chapter. Maybe there were a few here and there who were definately shallow, but for the most part everyone was welcomed.

If someone, skinny or plus size, had an odd personality that turned everyone off (and I mean EVERYONE because I've known at least one person from every sorority I've ever met that has been like this) then I can see finding something in the back for them to do. But don't tell them. There is no need for hurt feelings. These women are your SISTERS. You are supposed to have a bond with them whether you like them or not. And anyone who feels otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.

Yes -- we closed.

Yes -- I think ZTA is better for being off Ole Miss' campus than to be beating our heads against a brick wall trying to change a stereotype we got years before I ever arrived on campus.

We tried several DIFFERENT recruiting methods suggested to us by national consultants. In the end, all of us agreed that the stereotype was so huge that we could never overcome it.

Yes, I think we were better off keeping our sisterhood true than if we had just gotten ANYONE to join. After all, doesn't that defeat the purpose of having our special groups?

Because weird or freak isn't just as much of an "identity?"
A heavy girl no more makes her entire chapter seem heavy than my pledge sister made our chapter all "freaks." (A term I use here with extreme disgust)

I don't think this is exactly it. It's not that authentic a process.

The groups all actually value the same traits in new members for the most part, but there are artificial pressures on the groups like quota and chapter total.

If you apply that thinking, then those same people would think that that was the "armless" peoples' house, just because one sister happened to have a physical disability. Whatever way you look at it, it's the same ignorance and shallow thinking.

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so I may be repeating someone:

This thread refers to a large school with a competitive recruitment. When I think of that sort of school, I think of recruitments like Ole Miss, Alabama, UGA, LSU, etc. Let's face it: the grand majority of PNMs at these schools do not want to join a chapter that may brand them with a negative reputation (the "fat" house, for example). This doesn't make them bad people; most people would rather not be known as "fat." If this young lady is a member of a house on a competitive campus, clearly she has been through recruitment... she must know how being the "fat" house can hurt a chapter's return numbers. She MUST be aware that her house is a small house for a reason.

I noticed that some posts argued something along the lines of "Does being overweight make a girl a bad rusher?" No, but rush is a superficial process on both sides. If a PNM meets 80 women over the course of a whirlwind day one, will she remember the funny story the XYZ told her? Maybe. But she'll be more likely to remember if a woman looks very different from the rest of the women she meets. It doesn't make her a bad rusher. It's just the way things are. Yeah, it sucks. But we can't pretend that recruitment isn't superficial.

I wonder if the young lady in question's recruitment advisor asked her not to participate actively in recruiting rather than asking her to drop weight before recruitment? It seems odd that she would just be asked to "stay away" without any prior conversations about it.

Because partial armlessness isn't common enough for a group to worry about it becoming a group identity is what I actually meant.

I apologize if my joking about "freak show" was offensive in the earlier context. Another poster said something about a member being so unattractive as to turn off all the PNM who saw her, and I had a hard time imaging exactly what she meant.

I may be wrong, but I don't think the appearance related crap is ever really about any one member. One girl won't make a chapter "the fat chapter" anyway. But a chapter who is under pressure from nationals to get their numbers up is struggling with image problems generally most likely; and in an image driven recruitment, part of the way to address that might seem to be to make sisters who fit the stereotype less visible.

But again, I've already said that I wouldn't handle it by hiding members during rush.

It's unfortunate that so many women view recruitment as so superficial. Also--did you ever consider the fact that a PNM might view it as a POSITIVE that this woman looks dramically different than the other women? Not all women who just go into college simply want to be in a house full of Barbies, whether it's an SEC school or not.

I didn't even notice your comment about freak show, I only said something because I hate even thinking about someone calling my sister names and she probably handles it with much more grace than I ever would (she's smart as well as gorgeous, in med school. Some people have all the luck) but I'm a bit of a momma bear when it comes to my sisters and my friends.

I equate telling an overweight girl to stay out of sight because of her weight with someone telling my sister to stay out of sight because of her arm. I don't know if this order/"request" came from the national officer or came about because of pressure from the officer or whatever, it's still wrong.

I was ok with saying there could be other issues here but some other posters think that even if she has a great personality, etc. she shouldn't be surprised to be asked to stay away. How many times have we heard that recruitment is 24/7/365? Sisterhood is the same thing. You aren't a sister when it's convenient, you're a sister for life.

You are a sister for life 24/7/365 if you want to be. But the reality at some campuses is that if your chapter ends up with an image problem, you have to figure out how to still have successful recruitments or your going to be alum early because your chapter is closed.

I think telling a member to stay away during recruitment is unacceptable. I think hiding a member in the kitchen or encouraging her to be a Rho Chi/Gamma so PNM won't know what groups she's in is unacceptable.

But the appearance of your members is a factor at some recruitments, and you have to figure out how to best present yourselves to PNMs. That's just an unfortunate reality.

Absolutely.

KathyKD,

You might need to check the relationship between return rates and in-chapter percentage of Barbies before you throw out a claim like that. I'm afraid the reality of the situation might crush your spirits.

In my experience, chapter image problems are never a one girl issue.

ETA: I don't mean that image problems are more substantial or real than one girl at all. I mean they are usually way less specific factors of undesirability in the eyes of PNMs: tent talk, reputation, having problems with chapter size, etc.

I am going to echo something that has been said in a couple of posts:

Its not all about outside apperances! Sure being well-groomed is one things, but IMO to expect all the girls of a sorority chapter to look like barbie dolls is just plain ridculious! There are girls in my chapter who were made to fit into size 2's and 4's, I will never be one of those girls! I am not overweight, just big boned, and I don't think I have worn a size 5 since I was 14, before the hips came in!
I am proud that my chapter is a mix of girls of all sizes. I think it makes everyone feel comfortable in their own skin. Personality is always key, just because someone is pretty and skinny, does not been she will make a great member!

So...what about the ugl, er, "less attractive" girls? Do they have to stay away too? Who gets to make the decision of who is cute enough? And how do they tell them?

I don't know how anyone could be so cold and soul-less to break their sisters' spirit like that. If I were that consultant, I couldn't do it, and I'd tell HQ that.

This thread needs to die. It is going nowhere.

http://www.bittermancircle.com/my%20...tDeadHorse.gif

I don't think the answer is ever just getting anyone to join, and I think at some campuses, it's really hard to overcome a lot of factors beyond your control.

You just have to do the best you can, and not shoot yourself in the foot when it can be avoided, like Carnation's comment about what picture was selected for the recruitment guide that I think was misinterpreted to be about girls in the photo.

Is it hiding members to try to put flattering pictures in the recruitment guide? I'd say no since not everyone is probably going to be in the photos anyway.

lol this thread makes me laugh

i wouldnt want fatties either. whats hard to understand about that? lol but thats just my opinion.. dont get offended or nothin..

Oh give me a break. Most fraternities seem to have their fair share of guys with guts.

I wish we could all move to Ritual Based recruitment. If I'd gone through Recruitment at one of those competitive large schools (and assuming I wouldn't get dropped, since I am not below 100 pounds, own nothing designer, and have no social connections to speak of) I think I would assume that it IS all about being skinny and blonde...and wouldn't have wanted to pledge anyway. If it's NOT about all that then WHY is ritual based recruitment not used? If it's REALLY about being sisters, REALLY about contributing to the community, REALLY about scholarship and founders' ideals, then why is Recruitment all about brand labels, looks, and being shallow in general?

It can hurt guys in Rush too, as well as socially. Its a definite concern.

DYING!

Oh but it's different when you have a penis. Because you know, chicks and boobs and beer n stuff! Woooo anorexia!

aight, fo real tho, if malcolm x was reppin letters? hoos wood it b?

i wish you wouldnt judge girls that are not perfect. I am visually disabled and still got a bid to a good srat. my sisters still love me~~~!!!~~

rulezz!!!

Wow they just exploded. Fratty splooge everywhere

:rolleyes: At all the cruelty and immaturity popping up in this thread.


I gotta agree with Tippie on the "beating a dead horse" picture. Obviously nothing is getting accomplished and various people are getting offended. I don't appreciate the lewd comments about overweight people or the insinuations that if you are overweight you should just crawl into the social hole of death and never leave.

Seriously, some of the comments from some of the posters have really shocked me.

Not that it matters to anyone or anything, I'm just rather disappointed in some of the reactions posted here. Oh well, karma is a beautiful thing.

they said u can come back after rush is over. whats so unacceptable about that?

It's easy to act like a moron when you're hiding behind the internet.

Sorry, but it will take more then a poor attempt at an insult to get me fired up. Besides, fighting over tha intranets is silly.

Personal attacks will get you banned.

Just sayin' . . .