Yes, exactly - a person's race is not fixed. The same person may be considered black in America and white somewhere else (Brazil, perhaps?), and some other thing entirely some other place. There are "races" which other countries label that we don't here - the entire concept of race is extremely fluid.

That would be obvious that not every single last person in the world has donated their DNA. So are you saying that a percentage of people from every ethnic group in the world, continent to continent has donated DNA? That is what I am now understanding you to say.


Individual participants? Were they of Euroepan decent?

What you are now saying in the above quote is a persons race is tied into the ignorance of other people? Well, that makes sense in a racist way.

Also, it looks like what you are saying is a persons race is not determined by he or she but by how other people/outsiders perceive them to be. Is that what you are also saying?

Don't be so easily insulted. I like for people to get terms correct and for people to not debate over things that are undebatable. Simple as that. [/QUOTE]

Other countries' and cultures' concepts of race are no more ignorant or racist than yours, they are simply different. The individual's concept of race is determined by the society through which s/he learned race (s/he is not an "outsider" if s/he is part of the society).

Well, actually, you do have both a SNP database and a hapmap that geographically designates populations of people. The point of this information is it is not individual--it is "population based". The genes themselves are not coding for anything, they are just EST's, non-coding regions, junk DNA, or RFLP's. It is the polymorphisms that are being compared from 1 million to 1 million, genome wide and cM or entire chromosome comparisons.

For instances, as I understand it, at the 21 chromosome the break to form 3 chromosomes is not ALWAYS in the same place for every child that has Down's. Most of the time it is. But it is that inherited changes that actually does not cause mutations in the parent, eventually getting to the child. Or the mutations are epigenetic which is begininng to modulate genes different from our understanding.

No, Homo sapiens sapiens are not genetically different, meaning all our genes are in the same place and where they should be. But we have high variation on how our genes are "spelled". And the similarities vs. the differences are being compared on an evolutionary level.

We are finding that the more different a genome is from another the older the group is in the population that shares similarities with those in Africa. Like they just found this guy who is related to Genghis Khan genome... They did a Y-chromosome spread.

For women, they do a mitochondrial spread.

I was going to send off my DNA to be sequenced and see what I could find... It's about $200+

I don't believe they broke it down into percentages per group/ethnicity, from my general understanding of what a representative sample means, as well as what I remember from the mini series, they have DNA on file for just about if not all of "groups of people" in the world. It is quite possible that the "file" for the French is much larger than that for the Igbo people. I think some of the links Wolfman provided may be able to give better insight into actual numbers and ethinicities "on file" at the testing site they used?

The individual participants I was speaking of were those people highlighted in mini series, Quincy Jones, Oprah, etc. Their DNA was taken and then compared to the samples "on file".

I'm so far away from the basic genetics lessons taught in Freshman Bio, but amazingly I understood this, thanks a bunch. I've considered getting tested myself. Since you seem to have a much better understanding of the actual science of it, is there a center you would recommend?

My boss just recommended one and I forgot what it was. He said he sent his off for ~$150. I think it is inside mouth swabs or "buccal cells".

The irony is more an more women are being found to be chimeras. I dunno if they found male chimeras? Chimeras are one part of a persons body codes for one set of genes, whereas another part, mainly the reproductive system, codes for another set of genes. So like your kids are not genetically related to you if they take your hair or mouth swab DNA. But if they take your internal organ DNA, i.e. you thyroid or uterine, the researcher find the relationship.

Yes, this is what I meant :)

Please excuse me, I didn't know you were so dictatorial, Oh, but then again, I did ;)


Mr. Chaos, what gives you the right to say what is and what is not debatable? You like for people do get the terms correct? You have a lot of nerve. I wasn't insulted at all, I was being sarcastic and at the same time letting you know that I could read in betweeen your sublte lines.

Hey, are you a white man? You strike me as one :eek:

This is the truth, we are all ignorant to some degree but that wasn't the point.

I don't agree with this, I can't even agree that a part of what you said in the above quote has any type of validity.

I am a part of the American society, I am told that I am Black, African American, Colored and Negro, What will my society call me next? What you say in the above is, according to you.... My concept of race is determined by the society which I learned race, right? The people who labeled me the above names, they are not outsiders, they are right here in my society, so you tell me, which one of the titles should I accept or should I accept any of them?

Again, I don't agree that the people which live in your society are the ones who determined which race you are. Also, I am not a sponge so I don't go around letting people push onto me who I am. My individual concept is that I am African Origin and Afrcian decent, that's it and that's all.

Which place were you going to send it to?

Black, African-American, Colored, and Negro are all different titles for the same concept. I and other posters were referring to concepts, not names. We are talking about the basic ways in which people understand racial categories and the fact that such things as racial categories were invented. As much as you want to take credit for your Uhuru philosophy, it is not individual. It is based on the placing of people of detectable African descent into one category together, which you learned at a young age. All humans are socialized, and that doesn't make you less of an independent thinker.

That was my whole point in an earlier post. I have researched many different DNA testing places before I decided to take the test my self. They make it very clear to you that they do not have DNA from all people yet, that they are still in the process of collecting samples. The only samples they will be able to compare ones DNA to are the ones they have available, on file at the time of the testing. As I also stated in another post, Whoopi's DNA type may have been one of those not yet on file.



It seems like to me this would make things much more clearer, obviously for the others, DNA files for their same DNA was available, on file. Maybe Whoopi is descending from some type of African forest people....Who knows? It is hard to get African people who still live in the forest to donate blood, whereas the ones who live like the modern day Africans, they would be more of a willing participant. Example: Fulani, Igbo, Yuroba, Benin, Hausa these are all Nigerian West Africans but you get my drift, these African people don't live in the forest. However, some Africans still do.

I don't really think Whoopi is descending from forest living Africans but I am just saying, a sample of her Genetic type may not, as of yet be on file. This is why I ask for a source to be provided to the Genetic center Henry Louis used, that way I can find out for my self if that center has DNA types for all ethnic backgrounds.

My Uhuru philosophy? Some of you people in here really have a lot of nerve. This Greek stuff has really gotten to you colored people. Or would you prefer Negro?

By the way, are you an independent thinker? You seem to be hell bent on taking away from me my ability to think for my self, yet you push what you have been taught and not what you perceive from an individual basis.


All that you have spat here in this topic, is what you accept, I don't have to accept what you accept. You can believe all you want that the people around you get to title you but I don't have to believe what you believe. All that you learn in school is stolen and plagiarized philosophy. Originally, it was the rich who could afford to invest in their philosophy and create universities which would expand their philosophy out of others. I said that to say this, it was an individual alone who is responsible for what you know and what you have accepted to be the truth. That type of education no doubt, has it perks but one needs to also generate ones own ideals from with in.

If I was able to finance and promote my as you say, "Uhuru philosophy", all that you believe in right now would be challeneged. As I am sure I am not the only one who does not follow what you yourself has chosen to accept. :cool:

Sista, the hostility is completely unnecessary. This is a dialogue. When I disagree with you I state why, and vice versa. Debate is presenting opposing arguments, and I presented mine which opposes yours. No one is personally attacking you.

ETA: I don't know why you were offended by my calling your philospohy "Uhuru," but I did so because of an organization called Uhuru which promotes a view similar to yours. If you had referred to my ideas as a "Graves philosophy" I would have thought it displayed education, not nerve.

Sista,

You are simply stating that we never had a choice in the matter, that I stated about 6 pages ago.

We have been involved in this "society" for roughly ~150 years since "emancipation". What more do we expect? We are lucky we get referred to by our names. Much less than what they use to call us... And some folks want to refer to us just as numbers--or "Pickaninny" or "Buck"... That's a good name... :rolleyes:

Good.

CTFU!!!! LMAO!!!!! I'm sorry, that was the quote of the year!!!!:D :D

If you don't like Greeks, then why are you here? I just really don't understand what the heck you are doing on this message board ... :confused:

Cuz' gwirl she heard some hype and wanted to see what we are all about... I saw it ~10 years ago and endure such hatred. I was unsure how long it would take to permeate toward the East Coast... Guess that answers that question.

You will see more of this thought pattern.

Hostility? I didn't know that informing you that your acceptance of letting people title you does not apply to me was hostility?

I don't like how you talked condescending when you said
"your, Uhuru Philosophy."

Also, I don't need you to tell me what Uhuru is, I live up the street from a Uhuru house and I know some of the members.

You can try and pretend as though you were not down talking me or Uhuru when you said what you said but I know better. If you were not insulting me or Uhuru philosophy, you would not have indirectly compared Uhuru philosophy to the philosophy of Social construction and then labeled my thinking as Uhuru philosophy. I guess I wasn't supposed to be sharp enough to realize what you were actually saying.

Oh my God! I had forgotten about those names when I was naming my list of names we blacks in America have been referred to. I knew I had forgotten something but wasn't quite sure. Well, can you blame me? :(


Any way, how are you? My dear sister.

Are you Greek?

Actually, that is not the reason why I am here. I Actually tumbled up on this place by accident. I was googling something and Greekchat came up showing all these topics concerning black people and I became interested in the topics, so I joined.

Is that a crime?

God you suck.

I hope you stub your toe today.

LMAO :D

Bitch, you is allllll kinds of crazy!!!!11

No, I think "Some of you people in here really have a lot of nerve. This Greek stuff has really gotten to you colored people. Or would you prefer Negro?" displayed hostility. And as I said before, I wasn't talking about titles, I was talking about concepts of race.

I don't see comparing your view to other views as insulting and I truly don't understand how you do. Just another example of how we see things differently. Furthermore I never even disagreed with the philosphy I likened to Uhuru, I simply argued that it was based on social constructs.

It didn't seem to me that you understood what I meant since you took it as an insult when it was not. I explained myself to remedy the conflict between what you recieved and what I meant.

Are you part of a tumbling crew? Those rock.

Where I come from, when people call you crazy, it really means they think you have heart, more heart than they could ever imagine having for their self....:D


I come from the ghetto...:D

Where do you come from? :eek:

You have already said it at least three times, that you are or was "talking about the concepts of race." What it looks like to me is, you are not the only one talking about the concept of race. You already made it a point to mention that not only you, but others as well were all talking about the concept of race. When you said that, you seemed to be eluding that I am the only one who seems not to be talking about the same thing.

Please, you tell me, is there a such thing as a limitation on concepts of any nature? If so, was what I discussed outside of the limit?

Is there no such thing as layers within conepts? If so, was what I discussed not one of the layers?

Is there only one degree to a concept? If so, I guess your degree was the one and the only one. :rolleyes:

Let's see, you weren't indirectly insulting when you said this below?

"you want to take credit"

"It is not individual"

"doesn't' make you less of an independent thinker"
I'm sorry, do you know me? It seems as though, you have spent a lengthy amount of time sizing me up.

The above seemed to imply many indirect implications. I dont' care for implications. If you have something to say, say it don't imply it.

Of course, you are going probably come back with a response which will go something like this...

Never mind :D

I agree...

However, I would also have to agree that the people I encountered during my tumble voyage, they rock as well. ;)

They are just a tad bit crumbled :D

I's come from the second MOST violent city in the US!

DON'T MAKE ME BREAK MY FOOT OFF IN YOUR ASS!

Ha, ha, ha...cute :rolleyes:

Question: Did the first violent city, put it's foot off into the asses of your city? And, is that where you learned your foot off in ass skills?

You kept responding to me by referring to titles, which I did not say or imply anything about. Race concepts are different from titles. If you were also talking about concepts, it didn't seem that way from what you wrote.


Again, no, I was not. I was saying that your idea- similar to Uhuru's- was not formed in a vacuum but is based on social constructs. Hence it is not an individual idea, as you suggested. If anything, saying that "socialization does not make you less of an independent thinker" implies that you are an independent thinker. I do not see any of this as insulting.

I have responded to what you've written; there was nothing about your character in any of my posts.


I said exactly what I had to say. I don't know how or why you believe otherwise.

/Hijack

that was from Road Rules: Semester At Sea, that was good episode, Ayanna (who was offended by the speaker's remark of "If you're not born in Africa, you shouldn't be calling yourself African American), was assigned to visit a Black African family (other teams visited a European family, another visited a Muslim family). She said in her confessionals that she was upset "if I'm not African American then what am I?". She told the family she was staying with, and they quickly disregarded it saying "Oh you should have told her to shut up!" LOL

Just thought i'd bring that up

/End Hijack

Say's who?

You conveniently avoided my questions, here they are again...

Please, you tell me, is there a such thing as a limitation on concepts of any nature? In this mattere race. If so, was what I discussed outside of the limit? Let me remind you. Again, outside the limit of race, concepts of race.

Is there no such thing as layers within concepts? If so, was what I discussed not one of the layers?

Is there only one degree to a concept? If so, I guess your degree was the one and the only one. :rolleyes:

You are going to say I was discussing titles but lets make it clear. I was discussing that black people in America are having challenges when it comes to what their specific title is. Does that not fit into the scheme of this discussion?

Concept: Thought, Notion, Idea


Back @ at topic:

What do people in this discussion think about British settlers who by their own will, settled in South Africa? They were and still are racist against the black people who were already there, that being the black indigenous South Africans.

Those British people for the purposes of political reasons, as well as for many other underlining reasons, they are fighting for the right to become as South African as the real South Africans. They are fighting to be referred to as South Africans. This very same thing happened to the Aboriginals of Australia.

How does the above relate to this idea of "social constructs, social construction?"

I did not say or suggest that you were off topic of the discussion, I explained that your interpretation of my statements was incorrect. You interpreted me as saying that people should accept the label society gives them, which is not what I was saying. Generally when any social theorist refers to concepts of race, they are referring to an understanding of the existence of race and what race means in itself, not individuals' racial categorizations of themselves. So when you referred to my point as letting others title me, you were referring to my point inaccurately.