Because you've never put words in anyone's mouth, you've always been "fair and balanced."

Are you then implying that the Crusaders were not as large as the Islamic terrorists? Because I would posit that not only were they larger in scope, they were far better organized and focused on one common goal instead of hundreds of factious ones.

Opi:

I'll go into more detail if you wish over the weekend, as I'll have more time for reading and to research your response. (sorry, it's the Astronaut in me that likes to really understand topics in detail)

I do not claim to be an expert on the Islamic faith. In my research, I found more on the quotes I asked you about. As you recall, I mentioned that things can be misinterpreted and taken out of context, which is why I requested your clarification since you say you are Muslim (or, as you recall.. I also asked anyone else to chime in) as you would know more about your faith than I.

As per your response...... you said:


Thank you for explaining that. So am I to understand that there is no such quote in the Qu'ran? Or do you mean it is just referenced incorrectly? This is why I was holding off on posting.. I am researching this more.

.

From what I understand, and please correct me if I'm wrong, (as I have explained that I'm still just learning about the Islamic religion, but was alarmed at the quotes I came across)... Ishaq:587 comes from Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah http://onlineislamicstore.com/b3828.html a biography which composes the account of Muhammad's life and the beginnings of the religion. Is that correct, or am I mistaken? I could very well be.

And finally, is it true Mohammed's final words to his disciples were, "I was ordered to fight all men until they say, "There is no god but Allah."

Yes, I try to be "fair and balanced." It's the Libra in me, you know. :)

The Crusaders were as bad as the Islamic Terrorists in intent... but correct me if I'm wrong... didn't that happen in the Middle Ages? I wasn't aware there were still Crusades. :rolleyes: I believe we're now talking about the 21st century. Can you name a hate group as large and as organized as the Islamic Terrorists?

(edited to correct a typo)

Funny, you personally attacked me earlier in this thread and the post was removed by the moderator.

If you want to crusade in the name of the TOS, then follow it yourself.

Well if you go to the moon like I suggested you would be safe.

I didn't "attack" you... I merely pointed out the silly diversionary tactics you use. But, then.. when have you ever let the facts get in the way of a good story?

Would you care to add to the discussion? Please feel free to comment on the quotes I asked Opi about.

If it wasn't an attack, then why was it deleted?

I'm not a moderator.. I have no idea. I've seen blatant attacks which are allowed to stand in one forum, yet removed in others.

Are you using your diversionary technique again to get away from the subject at hand? Would you care to weigh in on Islamic Terrorist? Or are you going to continue to try to change the subject?

I think that Opi's question to you is still unanswered. Where did you find those quotes? Or, are you too busy using your diversionary techniques to avoid the question?

Would you care to weigh in on the discussion of Islamic Terrorists?

She's too busy telling people she's reporting them. Because that means something, I guess. Can't tell you what.

Making posts telling people you're reporting them = diversionary tactic.

You're diverting the discussion again. :rolleyes:

So, where'd your find those quotes Opi asked you about?:rolleyes:

Sure! Thanks for inviting me. How are we supposed to look up a quote in the Quran if it's incorrectly cited? I tried checking it yesterday but couldn't find it, so that's why I never commented.

As far as Ishaq's book, I never read it and haven't seen the quote. Sorry, can't help you there.

Maybe those were Prophet Muhammad's last words. Do you know in what context he said them? Where did you get that quote? Maybe I can read it for you and decipher it since you seem to speak and read English but only see what you want to see.

On various internet sites.. which is why I was curious as to the validity of these alarming quotes. Internet sites are very often incorrect, hence-- why I like to check sources.

I had hoped, since Opi is of Islamic faith, she or another Muslim on GC would be able to weigh in on them.. Opi eventually did... but I still have questions. Due to the age of most scriptures (in nearly any religion) and the further complication of a language translation.. it can be quite complex.

I also questioned whether these quotes are taken out of context. I'm still not sure about that, and will be doing lots more reading.

She brought up some very good points regarding the way they are referenced, so I'm doing more research myself.

I have pinned one verse down already, and am researching the others.

Now, if you'll pardon me for a while, I must get ready to go to work.

Well, one would usually expect a former LAW reporter to check out the validity of sources BEFORE posting them in a discussion.

I don't mean this to be a 'personal attack', but you haven't posted a single fact in this entire thread - and the story isn't even good, if anything it's regurgitated from far-right alarmist sites.

Your citations are laughable - can you provide any support for any of your claims?

Then this:


[/B]I don't want to stop your Reggie Bush-esque reversal of field here, but at no point did you intimate you were 'checking sources' - you were asking others to defend their religion, which is poor form indeed.

Also, feel free to check the sources yourself - buy a Koran, or use a searchable online version then reference a library, etc etc etc . . . so easy.


Isn't this a cop out?


Feel free to do the research yourself prior to posting in the future, otherwise we get the total poopshow you instigated.

This is detracting from the discussion. I am reporting you for not contributing to the discussion about terrorists who happen to be Muslim.

I realize that most of the people participating in this thread understand this, but for the few who still don't get it . . .

With both of these examples, as with blueangels' Muslim/Malay insurgents in Thailand (see the Thailand coup thread that she brought over here), the motivations are as much ethnic and political as they are religious. They certainly were with the crusades (and is it completely fair to assess the attitudes of Christians and Christianity today by reference to the Crusades?) and it is true in Northern Ireland. It can often be hard to separate the ethnic and political from the religious, since the ethnic and political divisions can mirror religious divisions, and since religious divisions are used as the fuses, even the pretexts, to further ethnic and political goals. Even with groups like Al-Quada, "we" are targeted not because "we" are Christian per se, but because we are Western/American, and the West is perceived by the terrorists as the enemy of Islam. Trying to confine any of these phenomena to religious or ethnic or political roots is just too simplistic.

Why would you use a source you acknowledge is "very often incorrect" instead of a reliable one? Why, after using what you acknowlege is a "very often incorrect" source would you expect others to comment on the accuracy of the source?

As a law reporter, didn't you learn about citing primary sources or how to develop an effective, logically sound argument?

I know i'm gonna get reported..lol. Do i care? no! lol.

The truth hurts sometimes.

True - Aryan Nation and it's attendant White Churches only exist in North & South America, Europe, Africa, and Australia. The KKK only is in North America; Ian Paisley is primarily centred on Ireland/Europe, but he's branched out to North & South America and Africa thanks to funding from Bob Jones Uni; the wacko militias and Apocalyptic "Christian" Sects/Cults are an American phenomenom...

Now the reason I used these examples is I tried to use "local" ones for you, to help you understand the message. But if you need to hear about different orgs. in other parts of the world :rolleyes: I'd be sure happy to supply a list as well.


PS> Actually I decided I will before I head off to my cottage for Thanksgiving:
Lord's Resistance Army, Army of God, God's Army, and for a purely Canadian reference: Freedomites.

I"m reporting you for calling her diversionary tactics silly. That is a personal attack. KUNG FU CHOPPY CHOP CHOP.

Communist/Marxist Terrorists easily surpase "Islamic" Terrorists in the scope of their attacks and numbers killed. Thank you, please try again...

To you maybe, but to their victims... anyways those "mosquitos" account for more casualties and deaths in the West than all the "Islamic" terror groups and cells put together have -> but hey I guess they get a pass because they aren't the 'evil other'.

RA, what groups are you referring to.

Ahhh my post got deleted!! Sucks that we can't even tell the truth without people getting butt-hurt.

Again I must say, buy a ladder and GET OVER yourself!!

I'm glad you are going the extra mile for searching for the truth. While you're at it, please make sure they are not from online sources, because it is hard to determine what is correct or not. And do you mind creating another thread "if you really want to talk about it" so we can attempt to redirect the thread to the original topic?

What does your research consist of? Just curious? Maybe I can help you out if you need further assistance.

you're welcome. I'm telling I did not find those quotes in the koran "As per you quotes". Infact, your citing was so far off and copied (exactly) from Islamophobic websites, that I don't want to go any further in verifying because you did not go through the proper channels for your "research".

Oh, so the one verse is not from the Quran? Then I can't help you there. I looked up some information about this Ibn Ishaq character. Turns out he wrote a book about the life of the Prophet about a century after his death. He has a collection of "Hadiths" in the book. The rough definition of Hadiths are the sayings attributed to the Prophet during his life time. All compiled about a century after his death by different collectors (some more popular than others based on the research method they used to compile the sayings). Now, Hadiths are a topic I would rather not get into because it's really really complicated and some are more "trustworthy" than others. The Quran only has one version and is the word of God. The Quran, we believe, is Infallible and the primary source and guidance of the religion. The Hadiths are not infallible. Another important factor to consider: amongst muslim scholars of that time, Ibn Ishaq's work was highly disputed. And if you ask any muslim today who this guy is (unless they went to school for this sort of stuff), they wont know who this guy is, much less his book you just brought up.

Now do you understand why I was reluctant to answer your question.

The only part that's right is "There is no God but Allah [God]." :)

Like I said, when I googled it, only Islamophobic websites came up and had verbatim what you quoted. So like I said, go to a credible source, and if you find one, post it again. We can go from there.

Now can we get back to the topic?

I agree. There are complex, multilayered issues pulling each terrorist organization, and while at face they seem to have the same objectives and motivations, they actually don't. I.e. Hizbullah v. Al-Qieda v. Hamas. I think, in the media, with words flying around flying around like "Islamic terrorism", some would find it hard to differentiate these groups, and just lump them all together based on religion.

Islamic terrorists is a current problem. Can you explain who you consider Islamic terrorists?

I ask because there is a current trend now towards using "Islamic extremism" (which is will encompass a larger group of muslims i.e. insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan and terrorists orgs like Al-Qieda. Whereas before, U.S. was targetting only those terror orgs (for the events of 911).

Islamic terror orgs= hezbollah, AQ, PLO, hamas, Muslim b-hood, etc, etc.

PLO =/= terrorist

Yeah, but I asked Blueangel specifically.

PLO did equal terrorist. While they are trying to develop into a legitimate political organization, their roots will always be grounded in terrorism.