Tom, I have to ask, why are you so interested in what goes on in the HQ's of other organizations, sororities in particular? Is it that you want to be in one or something? Why do you care about promoting AI into NPC sororities? Mind LXA's business, and make sure that there are no problems within your organization before you start telling other organizations how they should conduct their business.

It is in the eye of the beholder isnt it?

Since when is AI only a Sorority idea?

Granted, there are more Female AIs than Males on Site does not mean that We as Fraternitys do not.

The AI Thread adpiucf is an open forum isnt it? I am not intruding on any forum that is not allowed. No, it should not be a full time job, but from one who was there and seeing what is being done to the current MODs, it sucks and is wrong. Oh, isnt it?

ariesrising, thank you for your input.:(

SoCalGirl, some good points. But it is not that I said the AIing is something new did I?


33girl, more so than the ones who have who do not deem it to be closed?



Alphagamuga, thank you for a sensible post!:)

But Tom, you aren't answering KLPDaisy's question!

Exactly. Let the NPC sororities run AI the way they want to without any input from you, and since you care so much about AI, work with your fraternity on improving/changing your AI policy.

You're right, it's not new. So why are we taking a new approach to the handling on GC? We did just fine for many many years with minimal to no info on here. We should continue that, imo.

We've come to a collective agreement in the course of these discussions that discussing AI is akin to discussing membership selection-- which for all of us is ritual. Across the board, there is no NPC group holding AI as open recruitment. I don't think this makes more effort for the mods. They mod their own forums and delete inappropriate content as it is posted.

AI isn't for people who stumble onto GC and learn about it. It's for the Greek moms, real life sisters and real life friends and charity volunteers who support our organizations and philanthropies, and who are nominated for the honor. AI, in its current form, for most of the NPCs, means we come to YOU and invite you. It's not about poking your head in the door and seeing if anyone is home. It's about being invited to come home.

I used to be an international officer for my sorority. Part of my role involved the support and approval of AI candidates. I thought it would be great to try to more aggressively promote this program to our members and to try to find women in different areas and connect them with alumnae. And you know what? It was like talking to a brick wall. Yes, most of us do AI. But most of us are really resistant to being matched up with a PNAI or are overwhelmed at the idea itself. I can think of two GC'ers who resided in my district that I tried to put in touch with a local alumnae group. The alumnae just weren't interested.

AI isn't recruitment. It doesn't belong in a recruitment forum. And right now, it doesn't need promoting. We've talked about Sorority Shopping... It's like people soliciting a Lifetime Acheivement Award for themselves instead of having the honor conferred upon them.

AI isn't recruitment, isn't the future, and doesn't need a sub-forum.

Will you autograph my soapbox? :) I love you and want to frame this post! :D

It is not just that, but all of the things that have gone on considering the AI idea and some of the things taht have been said about them and the PNAI people which has belittled them.

They end up working harder than a bunch of women going through Formal Rush and are not given enough credit for what they are doing and why.

I have seen so many great women on GC who have gone through GC and working very hard to help their New Sisters and then are belittled and degraded by being AIs who just went shopping.

What is Formal Recruitment but just the same thing but easier.


Hi, I am Sally and I am really liking XYX and I want to be a Sister?:(

Yes, I can post on this thread with my oppinion as I can on any as a member of GC.

Okay, here's what's bugging me. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out people who wake up one day and go 'something's missing in my life, I think I need to join a sorority,' long after college. I don't mean any offense to the ladies here who are members through AI. Obviously your GLO felt you would be a good fit for your organization, hence your letters.

Rather, it's the shopping around. It's all well and good to do that in college, it's encouraged there. It's after college and shopping around for a sorority that will AI that I don't get. What are you going to get from joining a sorority now that you can't get somewhere else?

A good friend of mine is the house director for one of the sororities on my campus. This GLO (from what I understand) AIs under special circumstances. Those women love my friend and she loves them back. She does a lot for that sorority and should they offer to sponsor her for AI (which is a definite possibility), I think she'll accept.
Another example: one of my best friends is an XYZ. She was the one that made me want to go greek. Through her I met her sisters and got as close a look at greek life as any outsider can get. Let's say I didn't join my organization and I've graduated. Because I had a personal connection with those sisters and their GLO, I think it would be appropriate to discuss AI at that point.

I am for AI within the right circumstances. Deciding that you missed out in college and now you want to join a sorority, any sorority that will take you-that I'm against.

Tom-AI is not the wave of the future. It's a discreet and meaningful process not to be taken lightly. People who don't want this forum feel that it misrepresents what AI actually is. AI is not a recruitment process for people who missed out in college and want letters, any letters.
It's also rare. The reason there are so many AIs on GC? Well, look at the age demographic. I'm still in college at 22. I am in the minority here. Most of you are alumnae, you're older, you miss your college years/enjoy being greek and you converge here to talk about it. That's why there seem to be so many AIs, even though there truly aren't that many. It's a skewed statistical sample.
If this forum did not exist, AI would go back to sorority members recommending women to join their organization, which is what it was originally designated for.
I'm not personally arguing for or against the existence of this forum, I merely understand people who do not want it to exist.

You are not the PNAI's father. Blueangel is not their mother. It is neither of your jobs to stick up for and support every single PNAI that stumbles accross GC.

again I have to ask- why do you care? they aren't trying to join your organization

again, none of your business

I have neither the time nor the energy to pull up all of the quotes that prove that AI and Formal Recruitment ARE NOT THE SAME THING!!!! (There it's in big LXA colors. Maybe now you will get it.)

Which is why AI discussions should belong in the pertinent organizations' forum. Each organization's members can then determine what course discussion takes as pertains to AI for THEIR organization. AI is not like recruitment where all 26 organizations have bonded together to follow certain procedures.

Also, Tom, I don't think anyone has denigrated actual AIs for "shopping." People have pointed out certain self proclaimed PNAIs (emphasis on the P) who appear to be doing this, and I bet the likelihood of any of these women joining an NPC organization is slim to none. We don't want to encourage women to pursue fool's errands, and we don't want women who are clearly a poor match for AI embarassing themselves and giving more unfit women the idea that this is something for everyone.

Tom, help me out. I think you're trying to say that there are women on GC who degrade AIs. Can you to point me to these posts? I've certainly not seen that. Yes, AIs are also represented in the "not so popular" group of posters on GC but I don't believe I've seen a post that belittled or degraded a woman b/c she's an AI. Posters can earn that pleasure regardless of how they got their letters or even without letters. Just so were on the same page...an AI is an actual member of a sorority that was initiated after her collegiate years where as a PNAM is a woman who may or may not one day be asked to join a sorority.

In the almost 6 years I've been here on GC, I don't think I've seen an instance where AIs were treated rudely just because she's an AI.

Now, there were a number of occasions where an AI was treated poorly because of reasons other than her membership into an organization via AI. Those are two separate things.

I think someone's just making stuff up again, just like how "AI is the wave of the future." (All future use of that line should be used in quotation marks because I still believe that no International Officer -- president or otherwise -- would ever dare say such a thing)

You raise a fair point.

For my part, my statement a few pages back that AI forums should not be on the internet is not my way of saying that I am going to actively campaign against such a thing- or make it a personal cause to get AI removed from GC. It is not my place to get involved in that.

Adpiucf has made some brilliant posts today, and I largely agree with what she has said.

The issue is not whether GC members have a right to say if a given forum should exist- that is for the mods and the owner to say.

Rather the issue is the basic fact that- as has already been well stated by others- AI is NOT an alternate form of recruitment. It is an honor bestowed by GLOs in their own time and by their own decision process.

Somewhere up above someone made a comment that it appeared to her Gamma Phi Beta was one of the easiest places to AI.

That is a tremendously disrespectful statement that implies sisterhood is for sale and that the great honor of AI can be had for a little aggressive campaigning on one's own behalf.

Ultimately there is just not much to say. You either "get it" or you don't.

Anyone seeking to AI is well advised to undertake this process privately- preferably with the assistance of a chapter you have worked with in the past.

Frankly, I think coming to an internet forum to get help to AI without having any past connection to a GLO chapter has the potential to do more harm than good.

I'm not part of the collective agreement that discussion of AI is discussion of membership selection, at least in the sense that it must be kept secret. There are open parts of the process as well as secret, at least in some GLOs. You may consider this point proved, but I don’t.

I have no strong feelings about AI as a process, but if a woman who joined through AI wanted to share her story, I would consider it as valid as a rush story or a COB story. She would be sharing her path to Alpha Gamma Delta as she experienced it, and as she went through through the process, she would be unlikely to know any secret information. After she went through it, she would be as bound by our ritual as any member not to share any secrets of AI membership selection.

But to be honest, I never much read the AI forum, and I don’t think I’d personally miss it if it were gone. I’m more concerned with the effort to suppress speech that you just don’t like, or you just don’t think should be out there.

I don’t think things should be deleted that don’t violate the TOS or the rules of the particular group being discussed. If you create the expectation that sub-forums or threads can be deleted if several very vocal people demand it, this site will be less helpful and less interesting.

If you represent your group, regulate the activity of your group, but don’t try to limit the discussion for others.

I just want to add: Had the idea of creating an AI forum for each group rather than one for all been the only focus of this thread, I probably would have been down with that. But because that idea has alternated with an "AI shouldn't even be discussed online ever" argument, it's a little suspicious to me now.

Am I the only one that interpreted that earlier post as a person can come on GC and make inaccurate assesments based on what's already on here so why not have a place to post accurate info regarding AI??? Seriously? Am I the only one?

Two reasons why the AI subforum is a bad idea.

I hadn't realized we even had an AI forum until all the drama started. I've read posts about PNAMs journeys but I thought it was all part of the general Alumi forum.


Ooooooo....had another thought for Tom. The forum is the ALUMNAE forum. Last I checked, that means it's for the ladies. :p I nominate Tom to moderate an ALUMI fourum for any collegiate alumnus who wishes to pursue membership in an IFC/NIC group. :D I'm sure he'll be thrilled to show men the way down the golden road to fraternity membership. Oh, and just to beat him to it, he has previously posted, basically, that he agrees not every singler person in the world should join a GLO. :)

Funnily enough, there are certain people on here who do believe posts/threads should be deleted because they're personally offended, not because the thread itself is offensive as a whole. That sort of behaviour should also be nipped in the bud because it discourages discourse, which you yourself disagree with.
Moderators should be left to do their jobs and decide which threads should stay or go.
Honestly, I am not sure why this forum exists purely because-the general opinion here is that AI is a private process for each GLO. Therefore, what information can this forum provide other than, 'you need to speak with that GLO or a member privately.'
What purpose does this forum have if people are told the same thing over and over?

That's the point, Alphagamuga. I don't care if someone in another organization wants to post their story. I don't think anyone does. What I care about is someone posting, "I am trying to join either Princess Leia or Han Solo or maybe Luke Skywalker.. OMG Princess Leia has not written me back" and then people who are NOT members of Princess Leia and have NO idea what that organizations' policies may be posting, "OMG I hope they call you! GOOD LUCK!"

No, the person attempting this would not get as warm a reception if she was posting her story in the forums of the actual organizations. But I think there is a good reason for that.

You are quite possibly the only person on here who thinks that it's a good idea. Many people feel that GC has expanded the interest for AI too quickly. If we create 26 separate AI forums, it will give off the impression that "yes we do AI, we welcome all, please come shop around, and ask us all of your questions."

Exactly, and thank you for quoting the original post- I was too lazy to go back and do it myself.

From what I have seen there have been many great stories and posts on AI, but when shopping for AI becomes accepted practice- comments like the one made about Gamma Phi Beta are inevitable.

My fraternity has a few AIs, but it is never really discussed. They are not AIs- they are brothers, pure and simple. And the selfless work they did without seeking reward gives a pretty hard perspective on those who just want to get in a GLO as an adult.

When I first came to GC, I was surprised to see any AI discussion- but was pretty cool with it, and content to just read about it and offer a thought here and there. But over time it has made me kind of sick to see what some people are willing to do in order to get in.

But at least GLO members are giving out honest advice when people ask. As long as the forum exists, people who post wanting help with sorority shopping should be prepared to face the same kind of hard questions and tough reactions they will get when they start contacting chapters.

Well, my point was that I wouldn't object to restructuring the forums to limit abuse of AI, but I object most strongly to the "I don't like this discussion, so I'm going to shut it down" approach many people seemed to be taking.

Each group having its own forum would mean each group could control the flow of AI information out there and yet not supress the discussion of other groups.

Please read my post again. Each group having its own forum would mean there would be too many requests out there. In 26 different forums.

Each group already HAS its own forum. If Sally AI wants to start a thread in the XYZ forum saying, "here's how I became an XYZ," no one would stop her and I think most of the XYZs would cheer her.

Not every group has a moderator to control the individual forums. :( I'm fine with a sticky somewhere on GC that says basically some groups do and some don't and if you want more info to contact the nearest flesh and blood member that you actually know. There's not even a need in my opinion to actually list which groups do or do not AI. Come to think of it, I nominate practically any member of the D9 to whip this into shape. 'Cause once again, D9 intake and AI are probably where the NPHC and NPC can best see eye to eye.

That is true, but the problem is that then the world would know which GC users were pursuing AI in a given sorority. It would remove any privacy or anonymity for those seeking advice, and I don't know any GLO member who would be willing to moderate a forum where people come to seek a form of membership that is not traditionally open for people to seek on their own.

You would basically either need to have moderators that were not GLO-members and could not be of assistance, or you would be asking GLO members to take on a task that their GLO headquarters would not want them to perform.

Worst of all- you would be setting up a whole section of GC that IMPLIES there is an AI recruitment process for people to pursue. This is just not reality.

AI is a private invitation- it is not rush.

AI is a process- it is not a class of member. All initiated members are equal.

Separate it out, and you imply either of the above when neither is the case.

The more I think about this, the real difficulty is that there is no control over the propriety of asking about AI.

Rushees are under strict rush rules and have an incentive to be discreet and respectful of the process.

AI candidates have no such restrictions, so you have the few who are pursuing it in the right way and just want some advice or a place to share their stories AND you also have those who are seeking AI for the wrong reasons and have no trouble saying whatever they want- or even spreading false information about a given GLO.

To point it out a third time- the comment made above about Gamma Phi Beta being an "easy place to AI" was a slap in the face to every sister in that fine organization who was ever graced with initiation in honor of her service and sisterhood.

You and Tom are correct that there does not necessarily need to be restriction on free speech on this forum. What goes or doesn't go is up to the forum owner.

But AI candidates have come here and made false statements, gotten upset at honest guidance about their chances based on how they present their case and in some cases have actually made unpleasant remarks about chapters and how they want to "change things" as AIs.

At this point, it becomes a PR issue for the GLO and for all members of that GLO who post here.

For the most part it is what it is- this is the internet. But if someone ever came here and was posting without discretion about wanting to AI into my organization without even having a connection or past work to earn it- I would get at least as upset as some others have in the past on this forum when someone was showing a lack of respect for their GLO.

Right, Greekalum, at least that's what I think would happen.

KLPdaisy, I think I understood what you were saying: you think that separate forums would validate the idea of looking for AI info online.

I, personally, have no problem with AI information being online as long as it's not ritual, and I still maintain that, despite what some say, some information about AI can be public.

Separate forums still allow free discussion for the groups that want it, but would permit regulation by groups that don't.

I think that's preferable to trying to silence AI discussion completely.

EE-BO, I think sometimes group members do talk about their experience going through rush or what they thought in their new member period. Or how and why they accepted a COR bid. I don't think that there's a problem with AI members being able to do the same thing. I don't think having AI stories creates the perception that it's a special class of member after initiation (well, any more than the circumstance of AI itself does).

Because ultimately one does have to be invited to join, I don't think having information out there about AI really promotes it as recruitment. Having information out there could actually be discouraging if you wanted it that way.

A GLO AI forum that stated "AI is by invitation only. It is considered bad form to solicit for membership." could shut down interest in AI from outsiders pretty darn quick.

Since, as far as I know, AIs can't join without sponsors who know them in real life, people can shop all they want online, but if no real world group picks them up, all the shopping in the world doesn't help.


I also have to say that PNMs and PNAMs do us a great service when they reveal that they are COMPLETELY CRAZY before we allow them to join. Forums that allow them to tip their hands early in our involvement with them may actually be doing the group a great big favor. I don't mean that you talk back to them, be rude to them, insult them, blow sunshine. But you just don't let them join your group.

[QUOTE=EE-BO;1333459]That is true, but the problem is that then the world would know which GC users were pursuing AI in a given sorority. It would remove any privacy or anonymity for those seeking advice.... To elaborate, with anonymity, the "advice" is useless. If people are trying to join an organization that only does AI under very specific circumstances, no amount of "go Harry Potters!" will make an advice seeking thread useful for them. Without anonymity, these threads are inappropriate for almost all organizations- the response to "I'm trying to join XYZ" will almost always be, "please talk to someone in real life." I don't know any organization that would say, "Here's all the info you need, right here on the internet."

You would basically either need to have moderators that were not GLO-members and could not be of assistance, or you would be asking GLO members to take on a task that their GLO headquarters would not want them to perform. Which is what we have now with the current forum. We have non-members of a specific organization encouraging people to seek membership in that organization, and we have people trying to give out misinformation.


AI candidates have no such restrictions, so you have the few who are pursuing it in the right way and just want some advice or a place to share their stories Most of these women? Wind up becoming members and can THEN share their story.

AND you also have those who are seeking AI for the wrong reasons and have no trouble saying whatever they want- or even spreading false information about a given GLO. Sing it. This is the problem the AI subforum engenders.

You're only speaking about AI information related to your organization and not others, right? Let's say that I do not want AI information related to my organization posted on GC. How would you answer the following questions:

Are our opinions enough? What if another AGD who posts here disagrees with you and thinks no AGD AI information should be posted on GC?

Should members of our respective organizations vote on the AI-GC issue? Who is qualified to render an opinion -- all members? AIs? Officers? Who makes that determination? If sorority XYZ decides it does not want any discussion of its AI process discussed on GC, who monitors that? The moderators of this forum, even if they're not members of XYZ? How is that appropriate?

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

If AI is the "wave of the future" then why do we need to continue to have collegiate chapters? Why not save some serious cash and just close those down and maintain our alumnae chapters? This could save each of the 26 NPC organizations hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in insurance and facility costs, not to mention all the other fees. Why aren't we doing this? Because AI is NOT the wave of the future.

And what, pray tell, would that information be?

If you want to use that whole "but that information was in our Quarterly, therefore IT IS PUBLIC!!!" reasoning, go ahead. But you know and I know that most, if not all, NPCs don't have AI info online for good reason.

I know for a fact that GreekChat is frowned upon by International Council. Why the heck would they want their membership information posted here?

So, good luck trying to convince IHQ that AI info can be public.

*Raises hand*

I think someone mentioned one solution of allowing each sorority to have its own AI sticky/thread, if it chooses to and if such a forum wouldn't violate their policies.

This will prevent the whole "that's not OUR policy" and "how can you speak for EVERYONE" thing altogether.

Well, in my mind it would. I would assume that the authority to regulate the AI forums if they were assigned in the GLO sections would rest with that forum moderator. I also think that IHQ probably could contact the moderator if they were concerned about what was posted.


OTW, I think the stuff from the Quarterly is probably fair game. As would be the experiences of AI members who explained how the process went for them. Really, it would depend on the question asked. But I don't think the program itself is secret. Invitation only, yes; secret, no.

It seems to me that IHQ should make their contempt for Greek Chat more public. Maybe I'll get a PM from them pointing out the error of my ways.

I think the same general guidelines that work for the forum generally could work in an AI forum. There are some areas that are clearly understood to be ritual and secret. There are some areas which are considered bad taste or un-panhellenic, but allowed. There are some areas which are completely open.

So everybody knows that AGD does AI.

That's still not enough reason to keep an AI subforum open, sorry.

I'd also throw caution with AIs who explain how the process went for them. Not all AI processes are the same, and I'd hate for any PNAM to think, "OMG she got her sponsor on GC even though she didn't know her IRL...maybe I can get mine from GC too!" :mad:

OTW, you mean they vary from chapter to chapter or from group to group?

With my last few comments, I had in mind a GLO specific AI sub-forum on each GLO's forum, and I'd think they'd have the same policies within the group.

Excuse me for my ignorance here, but the idea of trying to pick up a sponsor on GreekChat just seems so dumb. Why would anyone sponsor someone they didn't know in real life? I can see a PAI shopper looking, but I can't really see a member agreeing to sponsor some they had never met.

But still, I don't think the answer is to supress discussion completely.

Then please start sharing your group's information. I would love to hear it.

There are too many different policies and ways of doing things for one forum to handle successfully. That being said, having 26 separate forums does nothing to help. Most AIs that come on GC have little or no idea what groups to contact and then pick a few and contact them - their cover would be blown by posting in a forum in each group's section, not to mention people would see they're contacting quite a few. It would turn very messy, very fast.

There was a suggestion early on - a paragraph detailing that some sororities do AI, but it is membership information and can't be posted online. Contact the NPC site or a sorority for more info. If anyone on GC is willing to help you, they will contact you. Then the AI can post their username and any GCer that wanted to help could. But that would be the only AI stuff you'd see.

I'd rather have this forum be for discussing AI, how it is to be one, the good and bad sides of it etc, instead of a rush-like forum with stories and things.

Well, since you are apparently already in a NPC group, you aren't eligible, but what is it you would like to know?

Really, I think I've been pretty forthcoming about how this isn't a topic near and dear to me, but there is some public information about AI.

I get the feeling, SmartBlondeGPhB, that you're just trying to be smart, but yes, if somebody asked me something that A) I knew and B) believed to be public, I'd tell her.

I feel like I'm in a conversation that I'm tired of having, and yet I feel obligated to response to posts that address my ideas. If you want me to post to answer a question (I mean I'm not running away mad or scared), please PM and let me know, because in my case with this issue, silence doesn't mean approval (or that I am unwilling to respond); it just means I'm worn out and bored at the same time. I want to quit watching this thread, please don't think me rude.

I think having open communication is more valuable that trying to control discussion of AI. I think I'm on the record with that.

Good luck!