Oohhh... so you want to play the blame game then huh...

Well F-ck Israel for prohibiting the UN from entering it's territory; F-ck Israel for not permitting the UN to bring it's wounded or wounded civilians into Israel; F-ck Israel for not allowing UN troops to intervene in any incident involving the IDF; F-ck Israel for destroying UN equipment and medicines that might be used to treat and move the wounded; and finally F-ck Israel for always thinking they are on the side of right...

No, congratulations to Israel on their wise decisions to not let the anti Israeli association known as the UN to interfere with their actions. The Israeli government is absolutely right in not allowing the UN to keep Israel from protecting its citizens. This situation shows the bias and worthlessness of the United Nations. If I were PM, I'd tell the UN that we'll allow the U.S. to send in aid, but the UN should get out. They don't need a psuedo-peace keeping organization interrupting their mission.

Rob it's great that you ignore the points made. It's a sign of the fact that you can't address them.

Again, the UN is not saying it was deliberate and is happy there will be an investigation. But I am sure based on your expert opinion, it's otherwise.

And your F-ck points don't even make sense and are irrelevant. Israel has allowed a humanitarian corridor into Lebanon for medicines and supplies and allowed for international access to Lebanon to move foreign citizens out.

But again, it's great that the UN saw Israelis being murdered, looked the other way, and chose to not share a videotape of the incident. It's great that you addressed that Rob. And it's great that when nobody ever said Israel is always right, you come in to condemn Israel and its supporters for just that - clearly an indication that you are level headed and have no biases.

-Rudey

Well I'd have to say evidence is kinda mounting that it was either deliberate or an act of gross military incompetence...

UN peacekeepers called Israel 10 times to ask for bombing halt before post hit

Well lets just say I'm biased in the way that I will trust the opinion and word of those I served with, more than the word of a decidely anti-UN media and IDF...

Weirdly biased anecdotal evidence?

This is the best thread in history!

When the United Nations force in Lebanon, known as UNIFIL, reported losing contact with the outpost, it secured safe passage from Israel to send in Indian troops, who found the shelter collapsed and the remains of three of the four peacekeepers.

Ms. Lute said that Secretary General Kofi Annan, who in a statement Tuesday night issued in Rome had called the attacks “apparently deliberate,” now accepted the Israeli government’s assurance that they were not [deliberate]. She said the United Nations welcomed Israel’s promise to conduct an immediate investigation.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/26/wo...d-nations.html

Again you seem to not address the points while launching into a diatribe. The UN has accepted it's not deliberate and welcomes an investigation. At some point you need to stop making these judgement calls and realize that evidence will be presented by those that are qualified to do so.

-Rudey

Let me repeat myself for dexterity. Nobody said that Israel was perfect and everything it does is correct and right. Israel is a country made of human beings, none of which is a proven deity that specializes in perfection.

You however, make it a point to come on here and condemn Israel and its supporters for something it hasn't claimed to be. Why? Do you dislike the country that much?

-Rudey

I'm just worried that once again political pressure will ruin any chance of the actual facts coming out... however I do know that the Irish protested the targeting and/or continued bombardment of their posts, and that Mj. Hess-von Kruedener did the same 10 times but was ignored... and at the end of the day a good officer of the PPCLI is dead becuase either: a) the IDF deliberately targeted his post (a former IDF post that the UN occupied in 1972) after bombarding the surrounding area for days before the fatal bombardment, or b) the IDF somehow misguided a GPS guided munition onto a highly visible, clearly marked position that was in communication with them at the time... either is a criminal act.

You can be worried all you want; it's up to you.

You don't know anything until an investigation is complete. The UN which knows more than you and I says they welcome the investigation and Annan accepts that Israel did not deliberately target them. When the facts come out, they'll come out. And I don't know too many UN reports that haven't condemned Israel for something or another so I don't see why they'd stop here.

-Rudey

When it comes to the actual targetting and bombardment of the position in the days before the fatal attack... I'd say I know just as much as the UN about it, at least from reading Mj. Hess-von Kruedener emails... and pretty soon a whole lot of other people will as well since Cynthia (his wife) will be making them available to the Canadian Press...

From what he wrote he understood the tactical necessity of artillery and air bombardment of the areas around any future IDF line of advance... some of which came very close to his post in the preceeding days... in fact he jokingly wrote that the only tactical spot not hit was the one he occupied...

I'm pissed off and disgusted that someone who dedicated decades serving both in the PPCLI and as a peacekeeper in Cyprus, Bosnia (twice... once as my company commander), and Zaire would have been killed in this way - unarmed and defenceless because of Israel conditions, and then finally killed by the Israelis :mad:

Speaking of Propaganda
 

Different Journalists discussing Propaganda in the American Media

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...23714384920696

You post this propaganda and then ask why I get upset.

Fine. I'll do the same to you, except my material will be less about propaganda and more about the truth.

http://www.honestreporting.com/artic...Under_Fire.asp

A look at some of the myths and facts following Hezbollah's attack on Israel.


function titleFontChange(inc){ var fSize = document.getElementById('titleSpan').style.fontSiz e fSize = fSize.substring(0,2) if(Number(fSize)32) fSize = 32; document.getElementById('titleSpan').style.fontSiz e = (Number(fSize) + inc) +"px"; } http://www.honestreporting.com/Image...yaKatyusha.jpgIsraeli military operations in Lebanon are taking place in response to an unprovoked border attack which left 8 Israeli soldiers dead and two kidnapped by the Hezbollah. Since then many more Israelis have been wounded and killed by over 700 Katyusha missiles and mortars that have rained down on Israel's northern cities, including as far south as Haifa and Tiberias. Israel is exercising her legitimate right to self-defense. Please stand up for Israel at this extremely difficult time and support our efforts to promote balance in the media, particularly as the volume of media coverage expands so dramatically.
MYTHS AND FACTS SURROUNDING THE CRISIS
Myth - "Israel's response is disproportionate."
Fact - The definition of a "disproportionate" response is a subjective one. The question that could be asked of any other country in the world is simply: "What would you do in the same situation?" When protecting its citizens, exercising the right to self-defense and responding to missile attacks over a recognized border, most countries would respond in a similar manner. After all, how many Israelis need to die before the world believes that Israeli responses are proportionate?
http://www.honestreporting.com/Images/leaflets.jpgAny civilian casualties in a conflict are, of course, tragic and regrettable. Civilians on both sides are suffering. However, Israeli air strikes on Lebanon are not intended to kill civilians, unlike the hundreds of Hezbollah missiles that are targeted specifically at Israeli civilians who have been forced into bomb shelters for their own safety. Israel has even dropped leaflets on Beirut suburbs calling on civilians to stay away from Hezbollah strongholds to avoid being caught up in the fighting.
Israel has also been criticized for targeting Lebanese infrastructure such as the Beirut airport. However, it is also interesting to note what has not been targeted. For example, while the airport runway was bombed, other vital installations such as the control tower were left untouched and Lebanese civilian airliners were allowed to fly to safety. Transport hubs and bridges have been targeted in order to prevent Hezbollah moving the kidnapped Israeli soldiers deeper into Lebanon and possibly even as far as Iran, as well as to prevent the terrorist organization being re-supplied with arms from Iran and elsewhere.
Many of Hezbollah's facilities and missile launch sites are located near residential areas, such as the suburbs of southern Beirut. Terrorists hide within the civilian population and use this population as a shield. Israel's priority is to strike at the Hezbollah terrorist infrastructure that has been allowed to develop in Lebanon.
Israel has, so far, avoided initiating a major ground offensive into Lebanese territory and has barely used a fraction of the firepower available to the IDF.
Myth - "Lebanon bears no responsibility for the actions of Hezbollah."
Fact - UN Security Council Resolution 1559 of September 2004, which referred back to Resolution 425, called "upon all remaining foreign forces to withdraw from Lebanon"; "for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias"; and supported "the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory".
Syria eventually complied with 1559 and removed its occupying forces. However, the Lebanese government has not disarmed Hezbollah nor has it sent its armed forces to secure southern Lebanon and the border with Israel.
In addition, Hezbollah is actually part of the Lebanese government, which contains two Hezbollah members in the Cabinet. The Lebanese government, therefore, cannot abstain from responsibility for the actions of a part of its own leadership.
Myth - "Hezbollah is an indigenous Lebanese 'resistance' organization."
Fact - According to the Council on Foreign Relations, the Hezbollah:

http://www.honestreporting.com/Images/Hezbollah.gifis a Lebanese umbrella organization of radical Islamic Shiite groups and organizations. It opposes the West, seeks to create a Muslim fundamentalist state modeled on Iran, and is a bitter foe of Israel. Hezbollah, whose name means "party of God," is a terrorist group believed responsible for nearly 200 attacks since 1982 that have killed more than 800 people.

Hezbollah and its affiliates have planned or been linked to a lengthy series of terrorist attacks against the United States, Israel, and other Western targets. These attacks include:

• a series of kidnappings of Westerners in Lebanon, including several Americans, in the 1980s;
• the suicide truck bombings that killed more than 200 U.S. Marines at their barracks in Beirut, Lebanon, in 1983;
• the 1985 hijacking of TWA flight 847, which featured the famous footage of the plane?s pilot leaning out of the cockpit with a gun to his head;
• and two major 1990s attacks on Jewish targets in Argentina - the 1992 bombing of the Israeli Embassy (killing twenty-nine) and the 1994 bombing of a Jewish community center (killing ninety-five).

In addition, Hezbollah is sponsored, funded and armed by Iran and Syria who use the organization as a proxy to fight Israel and to destabilize the region. Hezbollah is designated as a Foreign Terrorist Organization by the US State Department.
For more information on Hezbollah, see the following sources:
Anti-Defamation League
Institute for Counter-Terrorism
Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center
Terrorism Knowledge Base
Myth - "Outside actors such as Iran are not fuelling the crisis."
http://www.honestreporting.com/Images/C802missile.jpg
Fact - A number of analysts have suggested that the timing of the Hezbollah operation is no coincidence, occurring just prior to the G8 Summit in St. Petersburg. The G8 was expected to concentrate heavily on Iran's refusal to comply with demands to curtail its nuclear program. A wider Mideast crisis, provoked by Iran's Hezbollah proxies, has now moved to the top of the G8 agenda, thus relieving some of the pressure on Iran.
In addition, Iranian fingerprints are to be found in the current conflict. The Katyusha missiles that are currently raining down on the north of Israel are supplied by Iran. An Israeli Naval vessel was also struck by an Iranian-made C802 missile, killing four sailors.
Myth - "Israel continues to occupy Lebanese land, specifically the Shebaa Farms area."
http://www.honestreporting.com/Images/Bluelinemap.jpgFact - On May 24, 2000, Israel completed the unilateral withdrawal of all IDF forces from southern Lebanon, in accordance with Israeli government decisions and UN Security Council Resolution 425, ending an 18-year presence there.

On June 18, 2000, the UN Security Council endorsed the Secretary-General's conclusion that, as of 16 June, Israel had withdrawn its forces from Lebanon in accordance with Resolution 425.
As explained by Israel's Foreign Ministry, the Shebaa Farms area is not, and should not be, considered disputed territory - its status was clarified by a number of United Nations statements following the withdrawal of Israel forces from Lebanon in May 2000.

The United Nations views the Shebaa Farms area as Syrian territory. Therefore, UN Security Council Resolution 425 - which concerns Lebanon - does not require Israel to withdraw from this area.
While Lebanon claims to be the owner of the Shebaa Farms area, the UN has encouraged the Lebanese and Syrians to negotiate between themselves as to who is the rightful owner. If Syria were to cede ownership of the area to Lebanon, then it is probable that Israel and the UN would then reconsider the status of the territory. In the meantime, the issue of the Shebaa Farms is used simply as an excuse for the Hezbollah to maintain itself as an armed force in the region.
Myth - "Arab prisoners held in Israeli jails were kidnapped from Lebanese soil and should be released."
Some Lebanese and other Arab spokespeople have defended Hezbollah's actions as a legitimate form of "resistance" aimed at securing the release of Lebanese prisoners held in Israeli jails from the period of Israel's presence in its southern Lebanon security zone.
http://www.honestreporting.com/Images/samirkuntar.jpgFact - The prisoner whom Hezbollah is demanding, above all others, be released, is Samir Kuntar, jailed in Israel since a 1979 attack in the northern Israeli town of Nahariyah, in which he entered an apartment and murdered three family members and an Israeli police officer.
Kuntar is quite simply a terrorist and a murderer who committed a terrible atrocity on Israeli soil. Those prisoners held in Israeli jails captured during Israel's stay in southern Lebanon are, likewise, held for terrorist offences and due to the inherent risk that they will return to their previous activities.


-Rudey

Sites to help people understand Arab lies and media bias against Israel:
http://www.honestreporting.com/
http://www.camera.org
http://www.imra.org.il
http://www.middleeastfacts.com
http://www.palestinefacts.org/
http://www.memri.org/

I can also start posting videos and pictures like you opi.

-Rudey

You may post whatever you like, Rudey. It's a free country.

I'm sorry Rudey but I don't buy the arguement that Israel's response isn't disproportionate... one only has to look at the numbers:

How many rockets has Hezbollah fired vs How many bombs/shells/rockets Israel has fired...
-or-
How many Lebanese have been killed vs How many Israelis have been killed...
-or-
How many Lebanese have been wounded vs How many Israelis have been wounded
-or-
How much infrastructure/property damage has bee caused by Hezbollah vs how much damage has been caused by Israel...
-or-
How much land has been sprayed with defoliants by Hezbollah vs how much has been sprayed by Israel

If you can point to one of these and say that the numbers are even close... then hey you just might have an arguement - but I don't see that happening.

You must be kidding me. Since when are wars fought based on proportion. Proportional response is a terribly useless military tactic which becomes even more so considering the enemy in this situation. So when Al Qaeda destroyed the WTC and hit the Pentagon, we should only go in and kill that many people, and do that amount of damage? This is not an eye for an eye situation for Israel. They are in a position where strong force is REQUIRED. They have to go in and eliminate these terrorists, whose goals include the complete destruction of Israel. Can you imagine Americans' outrage if we went in, killed a couple thousand terrorists after 9/11, then packed up and headed back, with Al Qaeda still alive and well? What do you expect Israel to do? Should they just react in a proportional manner, only to wait around for more rockets to hit their cities? The enemy Israel is dealing has no respect for human life, and the only reasonable course of action for Israel is to protect it's citizens by eradicating the terrorist organizations which threaten it.

A proportional response for Israel would be for it to do to its unfriendly neighbors exactly what those neighbors would have done to Israel.

A proportional response would include the eradication of those countries.

So no, fortunately for these terrorist rogue states, Israel's response has not been proportional. If Israel showed the same lack of care for human life, there would be no conflict for us to debate.

Sigh... this is what I hated the most about being the UN guy stuck in the middle. It seems in every recent conflict that each side sees itself as the embodyment of justice/good/truth/right, while at the same time reviling their enemies as being unrepentantly evil... The problem is that each side (and their supporters) begin to believe their own propaganda, and begin to lose sight of the fact that they are fighting and killing other human beings.

Yes Israel has the right to both defend itself, and strike back at the terrorists that attacked her... however that doesn't mean that Israel has the freedom or right to bomb the living-sh-t out of Lebanon to "teach them a lesson", nor does Israel have the right to turn the south into a wasteland. Israel declared war on Hezbollah, not Lebanon...

Now I'm sure you hear a lot of crap about Lebanon being a "rogue-state" or a "terrorist-state", which is a nice rallying cry for the warmongers... to bad it falls far short of the truth. Afterall this is the country that we here in the West were applauding for it's secular and intigrated Christian/Mulsim society that was embracing Democracy and freedom. Yes Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, but that is in reality it's secondary function or goal ~ truth be told it is one of the more effective social support and security groups in the Middle East... one only needs to look into it's social support programs, schools, hospitals, pension funds, and children/elderly care network to see it's overall impact on Lebanese culture.

Now if one had bothered to read any of the intelligence briefings or primers (CIA, JANES, CSIS) on Hezbollah's place in Lebanon over the past 4 years, one might have been struck by the diminishing power of the militant wing of Hezbollah, and the increasing power of the social/political factions. So one can also assume that the militant-wing's power is supreme now as many Lebanese look to them (and not the government) for a way to strike back at the Israeli's bombing them... in short Israel has changed the direction that Hezbollah, and perhaps Lebanese society as a whole, creating a reborn and re-energized terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel.

Now as for comparisons to 9/11 and the laughable scenarios tossed forth in an effort to weaken my observations... how very Republican of y'all, invoking 9/11 to counter any arguement :rolleyes:

However if you want me to throw back a counter example, why not look at the IRA and Britian's response to them? When Lord Mountbatten was assassinated or when a platoon of Paras were ambushed did Britain turns around and bomb the living-sh-t out of Ireland? No. Instead the went after the only the terrorists... did the IRA have political seats in Ireland? Yep (heck they had one seat in the British Parliament). Did that mean that Ireland was a terrorist state, or supporter of terrorism? No. Most of the funding for the IRA came from criminal acts and sponsors abroad. Why didn't Britain go after the IRA cells and support in Ireland with massive military might? Because they didn't want to empower their enemies, nor did they want to create a plethora of eager new recruits, nor did they want to create another generation outraged by British "atrocities"... in short the British looked at the big picture and the long term goal of what they wanted to accomplish ~ something perhaps Israel could have learned from.

I have an argument because you cannot even address a single point I've made.

Using your logic Israel should destroy Lebanon and kill everyone in it because that's the equivalent of its enemies' goals.

And using your logic, if 10,000 people are killed in Israel, the Israelis should walk into Lebanon and kill 10,000 random people.

Israel attacked roads and airports so that Hezbollah wouldn't bring in more weapons from Syria and Iran and so it wouldn't move the kidnapped soldiers into Lebanon.

And at the end of the day, Hezbollah didn't kill less Israelis because they wanted to.

But then again Rob, given that you don't consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization, I'm sure it's easy for you to completely ignore all that and use that faulty logic.

-Rudey

It would be great if you could stop taking swipes at America as well.

-Rudey

You're right, Israel's situation isn't like 9/11. Its probably worse. Sure we as Americans have terrorism in the back of our minds, somewhere, but for Israelis, it is in the forefront, EVERYONE has been touched by it, and everyone must live in constant fear of it. Also, the IRA example is terrible. You act as though the British simply singled out the terrorists...Forgetting the fact that they beat, killed and spit on the Irish in the north, regardless of whether they were actually members of IRA or the PIRA. Now if Israel began going in and beating up everybody who was thought to sympathize with Hezbollah, that would be similar to some of what the British did in the North.

Ah yes because that's exactly what the British did :rolleyes: That the Brits "beat, killed, and spit on the Irish in the North"... first off if that were true it would have been entirely counterproductive to do that to the population that they were "protecting"... or do you mean that they singled out the Catholics as IRA sympathizers? 'Cause if that's the case it also falls far short of the truth as well ~ the vast majority (something like 83%) of asssaults or violent confrontations didn't involve the Brits but rather Protestant terrorists going after Catholics... and Catholic terrorists going after Protestants. I do find it interesting that you are using the exact same arguements (degredation and oppression of people) as a justification for a terror group that the Palestinians are... interesting how perspectives can change isn't it?

Yes, that is what they did. If you're under some impression that the Orange and Ulster volunteer groups worked completely independent of the UK, you're sorely mistaken. To say the British were at all humane in their treatment of Irish Catholics is simply untrue. Everyone knows about the controversy surrounding the UDR, including the intimidation of catholics who originally supported them. Much of my family is from Antrim, and as protestants even we have trouble justifying the actions by both the protestant groups and the British military. UK in the 1990s attempted to save face by deeming the ulster groups as terrorist orgs, but it clearly did not make up for decades of mistreatment. Note, I don't support the IRA or their actions, but to say the British were never aggressors or violators is simply untrue. As to your comments regarding the Palestinians, I'm not really sure what you're getting at. If you are comparing the IRA to the PLO, you're sorely mistaken. While Irish terrorism did kill civilians, it was rarely, if ever, aimed at civilians. The Palestinians however, continually target civilians. IRA attacks were most often aimed at UDR and RUC personel, along with civilians who worked in coordination with them. While I don't view this as acceptable, it is quite different from a Hamas suicide bomber walking into a crowded restaurant or city bus. Truly civilian death was an unfortunate byproduct of IRA action, while it is the centerpiece of middle eastern terror organizations. People often forget what Israel is going through. This is not a Northern Irish situation where they simply care about land, or independence. The IRA wanted a unified Ireland, and truly cared about the welfare of the Irish people, despite their violent tactics. The middle eastern organizations Israel deals with do not view Israel as anything more than animals to be slaughtered. Simply put, they do not wish to be left alone, they long for the eradication of Israel, and often the eradication of the Jewish people.

Interesting... an IRA/terrorist apologist... how'd have thought I'd see a that. To compare the IRA to the PLO is rather apt - because they shared both methods and training... and lets not forget that the IRA were the innovators of the IED, the sucide/homicde car loaded with explosives... face it the IRA specifically targeted civilians in Ireland and the UK, as well as killing those they saw as "collaborators", to claim otherwise is deluding yourself. Now if you doubt me on this I'd recommend you pick up the "A Secret History fo the IRA" by Ed Moloney... which was a required text for my Modern Irish History course.

As for the UVF/UDA or the other Prod terror groups... I hold even more contempt for them, and especially for their spiritual leader "Rev" Ian Paisley (the a--hole that was dragged out of the EU meeting for his celebration of JPII's death) - and the orgs. that support him (like Bob Jones Univserity). While the IRA terrorism was primarily politically motivated (a "free" Ireland) the Prods was religiously motivated ~ one only has to look at the speaches or press releases from each side to figure that out.

Its all well and good to reduce the Middle East to a Black & White or Good vs Evil picture... but that doesn't fit the truth of the conflict at all. To simply assume that say Hezbollah's sole goal is the eradication of Israel would to be grossly over-simplfying their motivations - yes you have some of the pure hate-mongers within the group, but you also have those seeing themselves as fighting for Palestinian freedom, others fighting to regain family lands lost to Israel in 1948, others seeing themselves as the resistance or defenders against Israeli agression, and still others who are in it for purely mercanary reasons. In short the Hezbollah is as, if not more, complex that the IRA was - who at various times were Nationalists, Fascists, Communists, Anarchists, Criminal, or Sectarian terrorists; to reduce them to simply a Catholic terrorist group is equally deluded...

Ah yes because Israel has never done something like this in the past :rolleyes:

Oh wait... that's right the Qana Massacre ten years ago... you know when the IDF shelled a UN outpost harbouring Lebanese civlians fleeing the Israeli retalatory strikes aimed at destroying Hezbollah (hmm deja vu?)... except in this case the IDF shelled the compound with anti-personal artillery shells (proximity fuses) which resulted in the death of 106 civilians and the wounding of 100 more. An investigation was launched into that incident as well... an investigation that concluded it was a deliberate attack...

So pardon me if I don't have any faith in an investigation of the IDF... because I'm sure once again the IDF will quitely protect the war-criminals in its ranks:mad:

While I agree in part with your statements about the IRA, the idea that that blanketly targeted civilians is false. If by civilians, you mean co-conspirators, informants, etc, then yes, they targeted those. However, it is nothing like these Middle Eastern terror orgs which target people they know nothing about, other than that they are Jewish or Western. If you believe the IRA made regular practice of targeting protestants simply because of their faith, you're again mistaken. While the violence appeared sectarian, and on some level may be, it was not solely due to their faith. It was the simply fact that much of their opposition happened to be protestant. Obviously religion was a dividing line, but there was no desire to destroy all protestants or all of England. I'm sure hatred led few to wish for that, but the efforts did not indicate that, but rather a struggle to be left alone. Also, you pegging me as an IRA apologist is just stupid, as I previously stated I did not condone their tactics, but simply did not fall victim to the propaganda produced by the British government.

Now, regarding Israel...you're right again, much of the middle east conflict is not black/white, but some of it is. Let me ask you this, given your distaste for Israel and your apparent support for their attackers, what would you suggest they do? You mentioned some sort of proportional reaction, is that what you expect? If so, is Israel then not failing to protect its citizens? Should they merely wait for attacks to respond, and have their people live in constant fear? I'm sure there are many, if not a majority, of middle eastern muslims who do not wish for the eradication of Israel and the Jews. However, Israel is threatened by terrorist groups which wish for exactly those things. I think a fundamental disagreement people have regarding this issue involves islam itself. While I believe there are many muslims who are peace loving people, I do not consider the Islamic faith to be peaceful. This isn't to say that violence is the original intent of the faith, but I believe that most involved in the Islamic faith, especially in the region, view Jews as subhuman. I, and others, believe that they(Arabs and Iranians) are taught and fully believe that Jews are their natural enemy. Because of this, many people in the world view the Islamic faith as dangerous, and I think that in today's atmosphere it is. Once again, this is not necc reflective on what the intent of the faith is, but given its leaders and popular sentiment, I believe it to be true. I truly believe that Israel is a country whose sole desire is to be left alone. They have not shown anything to the contrary. They are surrounded by countries who hate them, and are thus placed in the precarious role of protecting its citizens at all times, without rest. Like any violent prolonged situation, there will be incidents where Israel is overly violent or inhumane. However, the large majority of their action is defensive, and if offensive, it is only to protect themselves in the future.

Evidently you not only can't respond to points I make but you also post irrelevant stories.

In 1996 Hezbollah again attacked Israel and murdered and wounded Israelis (more Israeli casualties than Lebanese by the way).

Operation Grapes of Wrath was launched to fire back into Lebanon. After intense shelling from Lebanon, Israel shot back 15 minutes later.

Israel hit around a UN facility where civilians were and some died. Israel apologized. The UN said they cannot rule out the possibility that it was accidental.

The UN should concern itself more with the fact that on their watch, Hezbollah has brought in over 10,000 rockets into the country and is armed better than most military units in the region. They should be concerned with the fact that Israel is not in Lebanon and gets attacked routinely, has its citizens murdered and kidnapped.

Rob perhaps you should start concerning yourself with the Arab terrorists that use civilians as cover, instead of constantly bashing anything having to do with Israel or America.

-Rudey

Ah yes the UN Security Council dropped the language stating that it was an intentional or dileberate attack, as well as making any condemnation at the insistance of the US... I gotta say I'm ever so surprised that the US would take an anti-UN pro-Israel stance :rolleyes:

Fair enough Rudey - please point out the number of times, and casualties, that Hezbollah (the "evil terrorists") has attacked a UN post... as say opposed to the number of times the Israelis (the "good guys") have done so...

When you wrap your mind around that - then you might understand why I condemn the "good guys" for yet again F-cking attacking the UN:mad:

Oh and nice to see that the IDF has refused any interviews or information to be forthcoming in the UN investivgation (again)... but it's going to be bloody hard to explain how Israel "accidently" dropped 3 laser-guided "bunker-buster
bombs... hopefully this time the IDF won't escape charges for a war-crime.

I'm sure the airforce folks on the site might be able to shed light on how improbible it is to claim this attack as "accidental" given the facts emerging.

If someone murders your mother and then offers you bread afterwards, I'm sure you'd see them as a very giving person and all is well huh?

Hezbollah is classified as a terrorist organization around the world, but I'm sure they'd appreciate your support.

-Rudey

Rob it's good to know that Annan accepts that it wasn't intentional and is satisfied with an investigation while you are an armchair general that can provide expert advice with your limited skill set and condemn a country from the beginning. It's great that you can't come up with a single reason as to why they would do it also.

Oh and Rob, it's amazing that you don't comprehend something so simple as terrorists in Lebanon using human shields including the UN to protect themselves and cause PR damage while knowing they can kill anyone in Israel and it would be fine. Really, it's great.

-Rudey

Nice to see you glossing over the facts and dancing around the truth... cause the UN report stated that the evidence clearly indicated a deliberate targeting of the UN compound... but shockingly once again the US and Israel somehow managed to place the blame on Hezbollah - not the IDF artillery battery that clearly shifted fire onto the compound and then switched the air-burst munitions...

In fact I'll help you out with the conclusions:
"(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.

(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors."

documents available at:
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/6...e?OpenDocument

Wiki of the "incident":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qana_shelling

Let me assist you in your reading: " While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely".

It's great that you place all blame on Israel and America and it's perfectly fine that terrorists use the UN and civilians as human shields. You're much too giving though in your blame.

Again, the UN needs to concern itself with how it's being used as an accessory to the murder of Israeli civilians.

-Rudey

As opposed to say the IDF which directly murders UN troops and civilians?

Gentleman, we're straying from the point. I feel bad for the UN officials who died, but I really don't care about anything the UN has to say. The organization has shown itself to be incredibly biased against Israel, constantly condemning them, while doing nothing to stop terrorism. I think now is the perfect time to cut the cord between the U.S. and the UN. Why should we pay 25% of the UN's dues(according to Zogby International), and allow them to hold court in our country, all while they appease terrorists and act against western and Israeli interests?

Agreed.

The UN allowed terrorists to grow and attack Israel and American interests, terrorist nations to continue their nuclear work, and is useless.

-Rudey

Murder is intentional and pre-meditated and the possibility that it wasn't intentional has been shown.

Again, it's good to know you support Hezbollah and the terrorists that attack civilians and then hide among civilians as well.

-Rudey

I find it ironic you consider the deaths of those UN officials to be so much more important than the thousands of Israeli deaths that the UN continuously ignores and condones.

Yes to me the officer that was the Lt. in charge of my infantry training platoon, and the Cpt. that commanded my company in Bosnia is much more personal and therefore important. Paeta was an extremely intelligent and dedicated officer that I and others will mourn the loss of, a man who always made an effort to protect the innocent, and who wasn't afraid to backdown in that goal. Paeta came from a long military line, and he was proud of his families history as honourable soldiers - in fact his grandfather was executed by the Germans for helping organize the evacuation of Jews from Denmark.

I can tell you that he took very seriously his duty as an observer on the Lebanese-Israeli border; his emails always talk of his frustration in dealing with the intractability and hostility of the IDF, and his overwhelming disgust with the hatred of the Hezbollah radicals... but he never let this stop him from trying to humanize each side for the other. I can also tell you that he would methodically record and report any observation (he believe in the theory that too many reports was better than too little), so I'm sure more and more info about the bombardment and fatal strike will come to light.

So again I don't think its' ironic at all that I consider the death of this unarmed and trapped UN observer, Canadian soldier, and email-pal a great tragedy... made more all the more galling in the criminal means of his death.:mad: :(

I never claimed his death wasn't a tragedy. I understand it may be more personal to you than others. However, the troubling part is how eager you are to assume his death is "criminal." There is obviously no resolution to this debate. I favor Israel's right to defend itself, while you obviously are biased against the country. I find it incredible that you made mention of "hezbollah radicals," as if there are several kinds. The organization is a radical one, if you're in it, you're a radical. If I'm in a Christian group blowing up abortion clinics, and although I don't fully agree, I stay in the group, I'm a radical. Its called association.

I hope that Israel roots out Hezbollah wherever it exists. I hope that they do whatever is neccesary to keep their citizens safe. Israel should advise the UN to leave Lebanon to avoid danger. The UN is clearly biased against Israel, and have failed miserably in their proposed duties. They have continuously condoned the actions of terrorists groups, and have continuously condemned Israel for defending itself. Please know that I am sorry for the loss of the Canadian man, however, I cannot not blame Israel. If it is shown that Israel purposefully targeted the position, that might be a different situation. However, in this situation, I must refer to GWB's "with us or against us" position. Seeing as the UN is clearly against Israel, I think Israel should strongly urge them to leave. If it were me making the decisions, the presence of UN officials in a war zone would not prevent me from achieving the mission which is to protect Israeli citizens.