The rape kit did show evidence of sexual assault. While that doesn't mean that it done by the Duke dudes, it does contradict the assertion from the DNA testing that she had not even had sex recently. Also remember sexual assaut can be done with things other than something with DNA.

This statement is so true. Just because there isn't DNA present certainly doesn't mean she wasn't raped.

One of the talking heads on TV, on the Nancy Grace show, said that the findings from the rape kit were consistant with the girl having had sex within three days.

The DNA results don't indicate that she didn't have sex recently, just that she didn't have sex within a span of time that would leave physical evidence.

Rape aside, I am not sure why so many people are ok with the whole team being punished for the alleged actions of maybe three people.

ETA: Also, I believe they said on TV that there are pictures of the lady in question entering the party with bruises already visible on her.

That is not what their attorney said. He said the DNA tests revealed that she had not had sex recently. So that is to what I was referring.

As for the punishment of the whole team. I agree if only a few participated in the alledged assault, then yes they are the ones who should be prosecuted.

BUT it seemed the whole team was there the night in question, and the fact a Black exotic dancer was explicitly ordered from the service, using fake indentities, and misrepresenting the nature of the "party" does seem to implicate the rest of the team attendees in the complicity of the violation of University rules. So I feel the suspension of the season is warranted, whether the rape occured or not.

Now my question is, why were they taking pics the minute she entered the door? Did they already know something? And if the bruises, etc. were a cause for alarm why did they let her enter? Common sense would have said "whoa let's back off from this." I mean who would enjoy an exotic dancer who is dishelved and has physical marrings?

Again I am not taking a stand either way, but both sides have questions they need to answwer.

Now my question is, why were they taking pics the minute she entered the door? Did they already know something? And if the bruises, etc. were a cause for alarm why did they let her enter? Common sense would have said "whoa let's back off from this." I mean who would enjoy an exotic dancer who is dishelved and has physical marrings?

Again I am not taking a stand either way, but both sides have questions they need to answwer. [/B][/QUOTE]

Good point.

Since it seems that most, if not all the team, was at the party I'm ok with the season's suspension because there had to have been a substantial number who knew/saw what happened (or didn't happen); certainly enough to come forward, lawyered up to be sure, and cooperate with the authorities.

Had it been a case where a third or more team members were absent, then I'd definitely feel the school would be wrong to punish the "substantially innocent" for the alleged actions of the "guilty few."

By this logic, any woman who has ever claimed to be a victim of anything criminal is a liar.

Many men have been wrongly imprisoned for rape.
Many women have been raped and had their rapists go scott free.
Let's look at both sides of the issue.

He can't. He has a bias against women and in favor of men when it comes to the legal system.

I agree. No one knows exactly what happened that day but we do know that based on the woman's injuries a rape did occur.

What the fuss? All of a sudden McCoyred is my attorney, and I never even hired or retained an attorney.

McCoyred, I can speak for myself, thank you very much. After 32 years, I think that is one thing I got down pat.

Sheesh!

I've stayed out of this discussion, but I disagree. We don't know that a rape did occur. We know what the woman alledges, we know what the lacross players said (through their attorney). That's it.

Injuries (and I am not sure exactly what they were) are not necessarily a guarentee that a rape did occur, just like the lack of injuries does not mean that a rape did not occur.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that (not necessarily, anyway).

I would say by that logic, such claims would be subject to scrutiny, which having seen all the damage result from abusing the system, is fairly warranted.

I'm looking, trust. That's why I said very little about the case since TonyB's last post addressed to me.

Good point. Like I posted earlier, until we know FOR SURE, she could have gotten her injuries numerous ways.

Hence my skepticism.

I applaud those that are expressing a healthy sense of skepticism/scrutiny as well.

And the skepticism should be applied on both sides, eh?

The white, three-bedroom house with the crumbling black shutters sits on the edge of
 

Quoting the DA's words, not my own, or the accuser’s lawyer. "Based on the woman's injuries a rape occurred."

More information provided below.

http://www.wbt.com/news/detail_wbt.cfm?article_id=26141

Whaddya, Canadian all of a sudden? (read: eh?) ;) j/k, j/k.

Absolutely. I take no issue with that.

God's Ivy I didn't see that in that article. But nevertheless, here is a great article from CBS that presents a host of issues on both sides that people need to consider...

Expert: DNA Tests Doom Duke Rape Case

For example, the medical experts state that even if condoms were used, that still would not explain an absence of DNA. Most experts would say that the use of condoms would not prevent DNA from being left.

I would have NEVER guess that.

Excerpt from article......
This is VERY damaging to her case IMO. Honestly, the more and more things come out the more and more SOMETHING doesn't make sense. Some things are just not adding up about this whole entire situation. I don't know if its the victim, the accusers, the university, the media or what.

That is not logical. What is someone is raped with a broom or another object. Would DNA be present on the woman?

Here is the quote that I keep referring to-Durham County (N.C.) District Attorney Mike Nifong insists the guilty will stand trial, telling co-anchor Rene Syler on The Early Show Thursday that there's no doubt a sexual assault took place. "The victim was examined at Duke University Medical Center by a nurse who was specially trained in sexual assault cases," Nifong said. "And the investigation at that time was certainly consistent with a sexual assault HAVING TAKEN PLACE, as was the victim's demeanor at the time of the examination." http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/...n1454898.shtml

Dag, I just also read that the families of the players have hired Bob Bennett to defend them. :eek: :o

Taken from this article


One thing that the article (in my previous post) also touched on was that DNA would also be left during a physical struggle (ex. hair strands, skin, scratches, etc.) so even if she was sodomized by an object(s) wouldn't someone (or many) be forcibly holding her down? Because I'm sure sista girl fought back in some way shape or form. For her to break artifical nails there, you know she had to be SERIOUSLY clawing/fighting.

But yet there is no DNA evidence? :confused:

Interesting.

Re: The white, three-bedroom house with the crumbling black shutters sits on the edge of
 

Right. I understand that the DA believes something happened and is there for going forward with the case, but again, that does not mean that something did happen, just like the absense of DNA necessarily means that something did not.

Look, I understand you wanting to believe that sista, shoot, I did too. I would hope that no one would claim rape when it did not happen. But the fact is, this is not an open and shut case and so I am not going to go out there and say I KNOW a rape happened because honestly, I don't. I am also not going to say that I KNOW that the guys in question are innocent either. It is not that (no pun intended) black and white to me and I think we do ourselves and cases like this a disservice when we are so adament about things we really don't know about.

Nope, it's also how you speak Minnesotan. :D

I think we all just need to sit back and see what unfolds. I, too, at this point am not going to make a judgement either way. But one thing does bother me--the DNA testing was all done in Durham. It would have been better, imo, if it had been done elsewhere.

I have heard many people get up in arms over this....as a crime against women...against blacks...an example of rich privelege...yada, yada, yada. I know Bruhs who were ready to go wreck the Duke lacroose team.

IThis story ruffled me only to the point that we are so quick to judge, especially over the word of "questionable" people. These young men have not been given the presumption of innocence, nor due process. Their names are smeared, season ended, collegiate life ruined......for what?

Just as has happened, you have to wait for the facts to come out. When the facts are in, that is when I will be outraged and call for justice.

Black people, we have to stop letting any questionable person abuse our emotional capital, al a Cynthyia McKinney and this stripper/hooker. We have to stop reacting like Pavlov's dog every time there is a conflict between someone who happens to be black and the other party, white.

Just seeing you post makes me so happy that I don't care what you post. :D But I do sort of agree with you except for the point I made earlier that whether a rape occured or not, I think there was justification for the suspension of the season, because of the setup of the party to begin with.

I'm not drawing any judgements. I don't automatically think that the Duke players raped her. There are some inconsistencies in her story, yes, whatever.

But I'm not going to discredit this young lady, either, solely based on her job as a stripper or the strongly misguided notion that women cry rape to 'get even with people' or 'teach someone a lesson.' The highly publicized case of Tawana Brawley makes it look like black women do that on the regular. In reality, how many other news stories can you pull up where women faked a rape?

It doesn't happen that often, because of the backwards chauvinistic ideas that many men (and sometimes women!) espouse as regards rape cases:

1) That strippers, prostitutes, promiscuous women, and women who are scantily clad somehow "ask for it"

2) That women lie about rapes on the regular for some ridiculous benefit

Why the hell would you be ostracized from community life -- especially by pointing the finger at wealthy white male lacrosse players who most likely can afford the best legal support money can buy -- to get some invisible and imagined "benefit"? Tawana Brawley was trying not to get in trouble with her dad. She was 15.

While no one is asking you to discredit her on any basis, real or perceived, to imply that the notion that women cry rape to get even is "strongly misguided" is unfounded, to say the least. In case you didn't know, in slave days (and subsequently), a black man could get lynched solely on a white woman's word that he raped her, prima facie.

According to whom?

Like I said before, rent the movie "Pretty Persuasion"; while it's billed as a comedy, it makes a very profound statement that answers your very question shockingly well.

Okay, lets back up for a second. Did any of the articles or released information say that "there was NO DNA present on the victim" OR "the DNA that was present did not match any of the DNA from the Lacrosse Players"? There is a BIG difference!

I submit that one of the folllowing scenarios happened:

1) The woman was raped before or after she came to the house
2) The woman was raped at the house by someone other than the lacrosse players (ie guests were at the house who were not tested)
3) The woman was raped by the Lacrosse players and there was tampering with the DNA collection or processing (ie submission of DNA not from the team, lab misconduct or misreading of the results)

The fact is that based on ALL the evidence thus far, the woman WAS RAPED. Hence the reason for the DA to continue with the case regardless of the outcome.

So that I'm not mis-understood or come off as insensitive in case it is proven that this woman was indeed raped, my whole point of contention in this matter is this:

If this woman was indeed raped, be it by the lacrosse players or otherwise, I want the parties that were directly responsible to be punished. In this case, I am not sure if the party being accused (the lacrosse team) was directly responsible; and that they just happened to be in her presence at the wrong time.

The million dollar question is: Was the lacrosse players responsible or "just a victim of circumstance"?

Yes, if they have informatin and are not cooperating. Yes, if they witnessed this young lady being raped by one of their guests and they just looked the other way.

The article I read said there was no DNA found on her body, which is why they concluded she had not even had sex recently. But that contradicts the results of the rape kit. That is why I said I wish the DNA testing had been done elsewhere.

Could it be my fair lady, that she was not raped but rather had sex with multiple people that evening. I'm sure that in her line of work, she has participated in a few "trains" before and I know all of that "activity" has to leave some trauma akin to being raped. She may have left one set and went to the next job.

Secondly, those players, while leasing a Duke owned property, were not bound to dormitory rules and were acting as private citizens. If they chose to have that kind of party, off campus, and not as reprentatives of the school, the only sanctions should be handed down by the coach or athletic director, not the university president. Political correctness run amok causes us all to behave irrationally, which is to loose the presumption of innoncence in the rush to prove our "sensitivity" to an "aggreived" class of people.

Yes, call girls, hookers, and strippers can be raped, but it should be common sense to weigh their credibilty. Her story needs to be airtight and impeccable. Why, because the very nature of the job requires a different degree of character and judgement.

McCoyRed

I doubt if 46 men would stand solidly while their lives were being ruined by 3 outsiders. Somebody is dropping a dime, anonymously or otherwise. Someone is gonna crack. Could you imagine having this over your head for the rest of your life just to protect a rapist?


Again, punishment should be reserved for proven wrongs, not alleged indiscretions.

LG, sorry to be my old contrarian self.

The evidence thus far, including the rape kit, shows that her vagina was consistent with her having had sex within a few days of the rape kit being used.

Whether the sex was voluntary or not can't be told by the vagina . . in my experience the vagina doesn't speak. ;)

The conlusion that she was raped was made by the totality of the evidence. Her vagina showed the effects of sex. She said she was raped. She had marks on her body she said were from the rape, and she was agitated in a way consistent with someone in emotional turmoil.

If she was beaten by the men at the party, and forced into sex by the men at the party . . . then she was raped.

If she had sex before the party, was bruised before the party, and was not forced into having sex with any of the people there . . . then she was no t raped .. but the physical evidence would be the same.

The players said the girl was intoxicated when she arrived at the party . . . here is a new story saying that the police found her drunk and passed out on the night in question:

http://www.wnct.com/servlet/Satellit...=1137835376219

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/...e/3793222.html

Interesting.

Has the woman been tested for rhohypnol (date rape drug)? Don't the symptoms appear very similar to intoxication? The police officer described this condition AFTER the party, right?

Just more questions with no answers.

If I remember my domestic violence advocacy training correctly (we had to tour the Sexual Victims Unit of the ER, and speak to a ton of counselors, and go through a rape kit), Rohyphnol is out of your system 12 hours after you ingest it. At this hospital, which was a pretty big urban one, you'd have to request Rohyphnol testing.

It's an upsetting situation all around.

That's quite alright. :D

I agree

Jesse Jackson's Group to Pay Tuition of Alleged Victim

Just sharing the article, not casting my views. :)