That's really not something anyone really disagrees with. I think what we're actually discussing here is that many activities which are in no way "high risk" are forbidden because if taken to the nth degree, they could be high risk. It seems the insurance companies/HQs have decided that individual chapters should not have at their discretion the decision as to how much is too much, or at the very least, HQ will lay out certain rules and enforce them as situations are brought to their attention so that they can at least claim plausible deniability.

Essentially you're right, but there are a lot of ambiguities in your statement.

OK, since you have no experience with hazing at all, how can you say that the guys who stuck it out weren't there for the wrong reasons?

I find it hard to believe that all the guys that left were in it for the "wrong reasons". Maybe they had more self-resepect than the other guys did and decided to walk away rather than being humiliated or possibly put in harm's way. Did you ever think of it that way?

For me, membership did mean a lot to me, and I was so excited when it came time for my initiaton, but I would not degrade myself and do things I otherwise would not to just to gain membership. I have more self-resepect than that. That doesn't mean I was just pledging a sorority for the parties and mixers with fraternity boys or any other "wrong reasons" to want to be a part of greek life.

I don't mean to sound like a total tool here, but who would want to rush a dry house? College age guys are going to drink, to say otherwise is just dumb. I would rather have my brothers drink at the house and stay at the hosue then to drink somewhere off campus and then have to somehow get back home.

I think the term "hazing" is really throwing a lot of people off here. My definition of hazing is probably different than yours, or the other persons.

You're probably right.

I'm thinking more of the hazing t hat I saw on my campus w/ the fraternity guys. One group in particular dressed their pledges up as cheerleaders, got them so drunk they could barely stand up, and I'm not sure exactly what happened, but I think campus police somehow found them in a dumpster....

At the same time, if active members of a GLO were yelling at the pledges (a 'la Sorority or Fraternity Life shows) I wouldn't put up with that either. What's the point of that really? I have better things to do with my time than be treated like a 5 yr old.

I do not think we need to separate men from women on hazing. It is what it is. We may, however, need new words?

When I was a newer volunteer for my sorority, I often wondered how there could be two definitions of hazing--one for men, and one for women. This may seem like a matter of semantics, but the reality is, there is really only one definition of hazing and it comes from our insurance and legal systems (understanding of course that it varies from state to state.) Hazing is hazing....and most of us know what kinds of activities fit the definition. And the definition is pretty broad, and could include many things.

From FIPG: No chapter, colony, student or alumnus shall conduct nor condone hazing activities. Hazing activities are defined as:
"Any action taken or situation created, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with academic achievement, fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution or applicable state law."

So--I began to use the term 'unhealthy traditions' to define those things that in their purest form really weren't hazing but that had the potential to be if twisted or for which there may be better ways to achieve the same objective. Examples would be things like interviews, scavenger hunts, wearing the same thing, not talking to boys/girls etc. Hazing or unhealthy traditions--didn't matter I was going to encourage the chapter to do something else.

The thing is--no matter what you call it and even if you think its going overboard, if your campus thinks it is hazing then it probably shouldn't be done in order to protect your organization. If your inter/national org thinks its hazing, it probaby shouldn't be done. As someone else pointed out, when you take your oath or vow, you agree to follow the rules of the org. My advice (not that anyone asked) is if you don't like the rules and want to see changes in your favor--then talk to campus officials, other Greeks and your inter/national officers and present them with the FIPG policy, laws or other information and ask the questions before you just do what you want. Its true you probably wouldn't get closed down for making new members collect signatures, sing to actives on campus or wearing all the same thing ridiculous outfit--by why take the chance?

U. of Minnesota & FarmHouse Suspend FH Chapter; Purdue Suspends Delta Chi

Good advice, Heather17; looks like the FarmHouse chapter at the U. of Minnesota didn't follow it -- and got suspended by the school and by its national HQ. See the university's March 29 '06 news release:

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=rele...ID=35479&-Find

Edited to add: And a few days ago it was announced that the Delta Chi chapter at Purdue has ben suspended for hazing. See

http://www.wishtv.com/Global/story.a...75827&nav=0Rce

Knowing that we all agree that there will probably never be a "totally" dry house (someone's gonna have a bottle in his/her room), some chapters that have gone "dry" to the extent of no alcohol at parties in the chapter house and no alcohol in common areas, report increases in size of the chapter, better recruitment, a more plesant living experience and much less damage to facilities.

There are also some who report numbers going down.

I suspect it depends on the culture of your particular chapter and campus.

ETA, remember that a "dry house" doesn't mean that the chapter can't have alcohol at parties, it just means that those "official" parties are held at a third party vendor. Of course some chapters will have parties at a brothers house or apartment, but that pretty well negates the lessening of liability.

Exactly. Phi Delt is a "dry house" fraternity and they are, at least in most places in the South, all badasses.

`

Yale's Dean of Student Affairs is quoted as saying, "My suspicion is that the national fraternities are trying to minimize their liabilities." The quote is from an article in the March 31 '06 Yalie Daily:

http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=32424

The article also mentions the Balanced Man, Men of Principle, and True Gentlemen programs of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, Beta Theta Pi, and Sigma Alpha Epsilon, along with quotes from members of Yale chapters of Sigma Chi and Alpha Epsilon PI.

There are also interesting statements from an older alumnus who recalls Yale fraternity life about 50 years ago.

Personally I don't think the financial risk is the only reason we discuss hazing, but it's certainly a big reason.

WOW, a True Academian.

Said a Mouthful of CockCaa!

What is She trying to say? Something that many of Us have not known for a long time? DAH!

Of Course We as Social Greek Letter Organizations are trying to get things changed for the betterment of Us All.

Is She saying anything New? No.

Is what She is saying True, well, Yes.

My goodness, there are going to be rogue Chapters out there as We all see and want to try to correct it amongst ourselves.

Lady, get with the times. Please.

Our hazing was for positive. It was never used as punishment. Hell week brought us closer together than we had ever been throughout pledgeship. It taught us persistence and determination throughout, telling us never to quit. Pledging was the funnest thing I never want to do again!

also in name, Phi Gam and Phi Delt are both dry houses, but that statement is ridiculous.

I would have never pledged a dry house.

Interesting stuff. Perhaps a current or former national officer could inform us here. How difficult would it be for an organization to purchase liability insurance if it did not have extremely strong anti-hazing policies and programming?

I can see the benefit on one side, but on the other side, the question needs to be asked -- do we cause more harm than good in forcing hazing activities underground? That is to say, if chapters that haze (that chapter will actually haze is a foregone conclusion), is it better to let them do it out in the open? Or is it more likely that things might escalate when they are done behind closed doors, out in the middle of nowhere, etc. Do we actually put lives at risk when we force hospitals to report any suspicion of hazing to the authorities? Alcohol abuse? I think some of our organization's policies as well as some local and state laws are extremely short-sighted in these regards.

The Truth of this can come so close to home.

We on GC see it every day, not just guys but shes.

We as GLOs profess anti hazing, but it still happens!:(

These are The Chapters when caught, should be delt with asap if accusations proved to be true. "Proved To Be True"! That is the question!:)

There are already numerous (inter)national fraternities that can't buy liability insurance even with strong non-hazing policies.

They have banded together and formed an organization that basically self insures the organizations.

They don't have the deep pockets of an insurance company, and a few large findings against them could bankrupt the organization -- and some or all of the fraternities.

I went to one of the most prestigous public high schools in the country, Ann Arbor Pioneer, and frankly in the four years there i was hazed every one of those years. Yes as a senior i was hazed only for the fact that we hazed each other on equal grounds. My beatings and embarassments ranged from the nationally recognized band program to the nationally ranked swim team, and the theatre group as well. To be blunt, a staple gun to the chest hurts like hell.

There are no positives in hazing, all it does is start a cycle which is almost impossible to get out of and the longer you're stuck there the worse the hazing gets. Im my last episode where hazing occured, i'll admit i was the one doing it, i did not harm the boys in any physical way. I literally destroyed them mentally. It only lasted two hours but in that two hours of silence and cold i watched them age years. I repented for what i did to them and now vowed to never do it again.

If you think hazing is positive, then you've most likely never experianced the evil that it can truly become. I have seen worse than what i have done. I personally have washed the blood from my friends shirt as he went through is LPhiE pledging. Hazing is wrong, do not do it, PERIOD.

It all depends on what you do and don't define as hazing.

AL -- to be fair, I've never heard of a greek organization going to such extremes as far as hazing. I don't know of any pledges that would have stuck around after a staplegun in the chest.

I'm not saying that college GLO's don't go to such measures, but if they have, I sure as heck haven't heard about it.

the staple gun was in high school.

Sorry about the confusion

Thats bullying not hazing. Hazing is one semester, then in for life.

Research has shown and others have said as much in this post that hazing does not promote any bond of sisterhood or brotherhood. All it does is foster a sense of division and retaliation upon those members who were hazed on subsequent new members, -it destroys an organization finacially in lawsuits, it destroys the organization emotionally -in terms of not promoting unity within the organization -and it does nothing to promote Greek life in the eyes of the public. Most have the perception that we don't do much anyway- and a hazing case just adds to another negative perception about Greek letter organizations!:(

i cant speak for every one but pledge ship and hazing for me were the funnest time i would never want to do again. scavenger hunts, push up, finding you way back to the house , 3 am phone call. yeah at times it sucked but i cant say i would have wanted it any other way cause it was alot of fun at the same time.

Actually, most lawsuits have been alcohol related. When hazing and alcohol are combined, you're looking for trouble. But as far as 'dry hazing events' go, I can't really think of too many that have caused claims against our organizations (at least in the years I've been reading this board).

It seems to me that alcohol is a much larger liability than hazing is unless it's coupled with hazing.

Just for the sake of argument, especially for those who did go through more 'traditional' houses, was alcohol something that was present in your pledge program?

(Please, don't admit to anything if you have letters in your name/signature, and don't identify your chapter. The last thing you want to do is to get in trouble).

Oops, I responded to this in the thread in Greek Life about crazy hazing stories. I read both threads right in a row and got them mixed up.. my bad! Here is what I said:

ktsnake: In regards to your comments about alcohol and hazing combined, don't forget about the people who died of water intoxication or who suffered from extreme exertion. Back in my day (early to mid 80's), most hazing I saw occur was combined with alcohol. In some cases, groups continued the same behavior but substituted water, thinking that it couldn't hurt to drink tons of water

No matter what it is, alchohol or Water, beating with a paddle, if it is Harmful, it should not take a Genius to figure it out.:rolleyes:

I never understand the Logic used by some to build UNITY!

I don't think paddling is that big of a deal. When I got paddled I was always given the chance to paddle back.

And WSB II, I agree, pledgeship and hazing was the most fun time I would never want to do again.

Ask People who got their asses paddled and ended up in the hospital:rolleyes:

That is really Smart!:mad:

Ignoranace is in the eye of The Beholder!:(

Agreed. I've always said that "Pledging was the most fun I never want to do again."

I am not being ignorant. I didn't end up in the hospital, nor has anyone that I know. Sure, it happens...but I wasn't in a situation that was taken too far.

Yes, but just because You and some others didnt, means it didnt happen!:mad: It has happened to many times! Is This COOL?

So, How Ignorant is being Ignorant?

What if You had ended up in the Hospital, would You and YOUr ILK be so flipint?:confused: :rolleyes:

Bullying as AL described above is hazing. New member education, association and pledging--whatever you call it--is for one semester. Hazing consists of often illegal or stupid activities that need to stop.

I just keep reading the comments of those of you who think "hazing is cool, dude" and the "funnest"--and all I see is young people who really need some time to mature; young people who do not appear to have any positive expectations for how people are to treat them or other people; young people without ethical decision making skills or personal standards--and I find that incredibly sad.

Tom, like I said, I agree with you. No, it is not cool to send someone to the hospital. If I had to go to the hospital I would probobly be pretty upset, and in pain!! Like I said, we didn't take it that far.....

I am somewhat dumfounded by those members who are advocating 'innocent,' 'brotherhood/sisterhood building' hazing. I understand it happened to you and therefore you have entered into a virtuous cycle; however, stop for a moment and think.

As a potential hazer --- how does the fact that someone sticks around and allows you to haze them building unity? I do not would want someone who allwed their character and body to be humiliated or beaten in my organization. Think about it... it does not make any logical or ethical sense. Justice as fairness...

Our hazing is constructive. It is never painful. It builds brotherhood. I think it helped me immensly. Some of the values I was forced to have during pledgeship have turned around everything. I am doing better on tests, I act better and so on. Thus I like hazing.

And that is the reason many of us disagree!

Because so many people on here consider hazing some dangerous, horrible act. We never did anything degrading, dangerous, painful, etc.

I'm not so sure it's as simple as black and white/wrong and right. Keep in mind that most of our organizations didn't get serious about having or enforcing hazing policies until civil liability became an issue.

Many currently, and many before us used hazing as a means to bring a pledge class together.

My father's pledge class was hazed worse than I've ever heard anyone being hazed today -- there were broken bones and people getting pretty sick. They ended up kidnapping their pledge trainer, stripping him down to his tighty-whities, and leaving him out in the middle of BFE handcuffed to an oil rig. Despite all of that, he looks upon that period with a certain degree of fondness.

My experience was quite a bit different. I was a founding member of my chapter. One of the cornerstones on which our particular chapter was founded was that we wouldn't ever haze much for the same reasons that you have listed above. Although my experience was vastly different from my father's, both of us would tell you that we had a hell of a good time.

In the almost 40 years that passed between my colony experience and his pledging, a lot changed in the fraternal world. He marvels at how no one was actually killed while he was in school -- well that changed eventually.

The thing that confuses me about hazing is that there are all of these severe punishments for it while we almost turn a blind eye to alcohol abuse. What makes that even more amazing is that it seems that a great many of these hazing stories involve alcohol abuse. Accordingly, if there was one thing I could change about the fraternal landscape, it would be the way that we addressed alcohol.

What sets a generally positive hazing experience apart from a negative one seems to be the restraint shown by the members in making their pledges 'run the gauntlet.' There's a huge difference, for example between 'bows and toes' and that story today where the hazers stand accused of causing scarring with a rubber band while repeatedly punching the pledge in the hip until serious damage was done.

My take is that the current "no hazing ever" policies are a band-aid to the real problem. It seems likely to me that the current policies are forced on our organizaitons by our respective insurance companies. Since in the past, we've shown the lack of restraint needed to have effective pledging programs with hazing, we all need to gravitate to something where restraint isn't required. This is where we've seen the rise of national programming built to take the place of our more 'traditional' approaches to pledge training.

I did not want to go through Your whole Quote/Statement, but as a Founder, I was of the same beleif.

We did line ups as it was accepted and The Then Pledges doing House Cleaning dutys on Sat. Morning, main floor only common rooms, but not the kitchen.

I would not allow any physical harm of any kind to New Guys. That was also the same beleifs of the Members I recruited from GDIs who liked it to others who left other GLOs at the time.

I am surprised when I get reports about other GLOs Chapters who do not profess Hazing and especially one of Mine as We are Anti Hazing as it were.

I do get Livid when I hear of this as We all should.

Hazing, by definition, is something that is degrading, dangerous or painful, isn't it?

refer to ktsnake