How about "congratulations and make sure you aren't judgmental of other sororities as you don't want others to be judgmental of you and yours."

While you are now trying to keep the peace and type about sororities fitting peoples' needs, much of what you have typed about how your sorority is "different" can be condescending toward other sororities.

BTW, every newly founded organization believes it will be soooo different from all organizations that come before it. While your organization will always be an Islamic sorority, with age it might adopt some of the things that its founders wished to avoid. That's the circle of life.

As you can see with my few number of post, I usually don't get involved in online debates but this thread caught my attention. So are you saying that basically, because these women are muslim, they will not look up to these people (founders, mentors, president, etc) as gods?

Why can't people ask questions? Isn't that what this website is for? What sorority or fraternity that was founded did not have to deal with questions and hard times at first? Isn't that a sign of a strong organization that can go through many trials and still survive?

The funniest part of this is, they're attempting to assimilate into American culture by taking on Greek letters, but then not assimilating by forming their own groups. I mean, Christian fraternities are no different, but they are already assimilated into American culture.

edit: As was said earlier, the organization may very well change. Many of our fraternities such as Sigma Chi and others are based on Christian ideals and were at one time not secular at all. Since the infiltration of the liberal, it has become that way.

What are Islamic principles and how is this org not a religious org if it follows them?

-Rudey

I am not even a member of a sorority to pass judgment in the first beginning. I've always been about peace since I entered this conversation. I love the concept of the new sorority and I feel it was very well needed. There are muslim sisters who want to share in sorority life without compromising their beliefs. I will never put down another sorority to boost another one up. If you look back on my 6 or 7 posts you will note that I never tried to be negative to anyone's organization.

Other members are lashing out trying to figure out what is so different about Gamma Gamma Chi, which they shouldn't do, just accept that they are here now. Honestly it amazes me how people who already are loyal members of an organization have so much negativity towards a new organization, why is that?

Let people find where they want to be. Dr. Collins is a member of DST and I love and respect her for her knowledge, professionalism and overall personality which speaks VOLUMES for Delta Sigma Theta in my book. I think its absolutely fabulous that she found a void and was equipped to fill it, that beyond excellence, that's your soror.

Peace

But part of the problem is that the articles written about this attribute Dr. Collins' reason for founding the org as her daughter attempted membership in DST and was "treated" differently because she wore a hijab.

That offended many of my sorors, because we do not discriminate against Muslims as evidenced by our membership. It is quite possible that her daughter was treated differently for other reasons, i.e. the chapter just did not want her.

Personally, I have no problem with the formation of this sorority and wish it well. But I want to know the answer to the same question Rudey has asked twice. What are Islamic principles?

I know who my Soror is, thanks.

My point to you, Dr. Collins, and whomever else this may apply to is simple: The worth of your organization can be found without stereotyping sororities. Since there are devout and disciplined Muslim members of other sororities, it is clear that what makes your organization different is that Islamic principles are the core. That is distinct from the belief that your principles will undeniably be compromised if you were to join another sorority. ;)

"Congratulations."

I would also like to know what Islamic principles you're talking about. :)

So, My Question is why worry about what they want to do With Their Organization?

Why do any of Us think that We were Started and for What Purposes?

There were Organizations started for Christian , Other Religious and Racial Principles.

So, Let Them Do Their Thing!:)

No one said they couldn't....

Catch up Tom.

My guess is that perhaps only a member of Gamma Gamma Chi can answer this question. Until then, and for what it is worth, I did find these at the Gamma Gamma Chi website under FAQ's.

Q #5: How is Gamma Gamma Chi different from other sororities?

A: We are different from other sororities in that we are a sisterhood whose practice is based on Islamic principles. This means that although we use Greek letters in name, we do not engage in doctrines that are traditionally associated with "Greek Life." We are Islamic based; therefore, we do not participate in any form of shirk or any other practices that conflict with Islamic principles. Our focus is to provide an alternative to traditional sororities that allows women to maintain and celebrate their Islamic identity in rewarding, meaningful, and fun ways within a sorority structure.

and this

Q #7: Do you participate in rituals?

A: We adhere to activities that coincide with the Shariah (Islamic Law). We observe salat whose timing occurs during a meeting or an event, as well as other important Islamic observances such as Eid celebrations, fasting and Itikaf in the month of Ramadan. There is a special secret ceremony involved in becoming a member.

and this

Q #10. How Islamic is Gamma Gamma Chi Sorority, Inc.?

Being Islamic-based means that we will adhere to the Sunnah in all that we do. Being a sorority means that we have certain expectations and responsibilities that we plan to meet inshallah. The expectation is that we will have an organization that enables us to enjoy sisterhood, maintain scholarship and academic excellence among our sorors, to engage in activities that will help strengthen leadership skills, and to provide community service--particularly to the Muslim communities in which we live through our chapter involvement and at the National level. While we will not proselytize, we will demonstrate ways to try to serve and please Allah (SWT) in all that we do. We see this as an excellent opportunity to give dawah to non-Muslims, so they are welcome to join us as long as they help advance the mission of promoting positive visibility of Muslim women and Islam in general.

It doesn't quite answer it and in the parts that it gets close to answering it (ie "activities that coincide with Shariah"), it sounds like a religious organization.

And that is fine, but call a spade a spade if that's the case. It just looks like they're tip-toeing around the issue for one reason or another and if you ask a question, the retort is "Why are you questioning us?"

-Rudey

I think you're right. I was asking her specifically because she mentioned it in one of her posts.

I just want to say my question and I believe some other people's questions are just that, questions. I don't believe some of our questions are coming from a negative standpoint, I think some of us really want to learn. What is wrong with that? I don't mean to put you on the defensive, I was just wondering if you knew what Islamic principles the sorority was talking about.

And right you are. ATLG1RL even wrote "I am not even a member of a sorority..." so I should have been more clear and directed my reply to her. As such, while I respect that she - and others - may know a lot about Gamma Gamma Chi, it would seem that only a member of the sorority can (should?) address how Gamma Gamma Chi follows Islamic principles. Any thing else would be speculation on her part.

Edited in an attempt to be yet again, some what clearer. But apparently, not doing such a good job of it.

Dr. Collins' daughter all her life growing up wanted to be part of that sorority. When you meet her you can see how emotional it was for her to experience that treatment. And how each time she tells of that she has to hold back the tears. But its okay as I don't see it as a negative but a positive. I honestly think it was just that chapter that treated her that way and not based on DST overall. I wish I can say it didn't happen to the sister, but then I would be lying. News articles always seem to put a spin on the facts, which is oft times frustrating to say the least. I don't think Dr. Collins was attempting to name names and your sorority should not take it as diliberate. Its sad that had to happen, but then again there wouldnt be a Gamma Gamma Chi for me if it had not.

Islamic principles are vast - not consuming or touching pork or pork bi-products, not drinking alcohol, not smoking, dressing modestly, not committing shirk, acknowledging who the creator's prophet is. And it goes on and on. Certain things a student of Islam just knows are the underlying principles.

The sorority has established its' own principles but when the article(s) mentions no alcohol, there is just no exception to that rule because that is one of the things that all muslims adhere to. Fridays is the holy day (jummah) for muslims all across the world, that's just something we know. Fasting during Ramadan that's just what we all know so when the sorority speaks of it or does something in that regard, we wont be shocked.

I could not tell you all of the Islamic principles without leading into a religious post.

One of the sisters asked could she ask questions of the new sorority and certainly she can, but I only have limited knowledge and don't want to offend anyone. So I tread lightly:D

PEACE and always Love

So basically following Islam is the Islamic principles, but of course you want a piece meal version of shariah where prayer is not required but alcohol is a no-no.

-Rudey
--You don't have to be Muslim to join but you have to practice Islam and follow the shariah (sometimes).

I'm glad you said this.

I agree Islamic principles are vast. Again I wasn't trying to put you on the spot but I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly. I think you gave a good description of general Islamic principles, thank you for making it clearer for me. :)

I dont see why that's so funny. Do you believe that there are no american muslims? surely you are jesting if that is your thought. Secondly, when you see Arabic lettered organizations let me know. And truth be told, these smaller GLOs would have no need to be formed if all people in America were accepted for who they were. That's very bold of you to state that a newer group is attempting to assimilate, when doesnt assimilate mean "try to fit in" If these muslim women were in fact assimilating they would join the sororites that already exists and then change to "fit in and be accepted" isn't that correct. So my brother please choose your words wisely.

The only thing that is constant in this world is change, while I suspect the Islamic sorority will change, I do not foresee that it will stray far from its Islamic-base. And that IS the underlying difference between this sorority and others.

PEACE

but i am confused---atlg1rl, are you or are you not a member of gamma gamma chi?

if you are not are you hoping to join a chapter or help found a chapter somewhere?

you seem to be privy to a lot of insider information.

Rudy, I believe that by this sorority being available it just gives women another option, so if they want to stay true to their religion they will have a sorority that will accept them as is. The reason prayer is not required would probably go into the fact that their are different sects and interpretations of Islam and to make prayer mandatory at certain times would be more like hazing or of being non-tolerate. Some women where hijab others dont, so that cant be forced on a person.

By saying islamic principles a potential member would know that alcohol will not be entertained and having a ham smoke out wouldnt be on the agenda, things like that. A sister will not have to keep asking "is there pork in that" when they go to social outings. And they won't be the only ones stopping what they are doing for prayer. Or they wont be the only one fasting during Ramadan and having to explain why they aren't going to the Christmas party. Their environment will just be better suited for them based on their religion is all.

It is a sorority Rudy, not a mosque or temple. They would probably be doing the same thing that other sororities do, service projects, pursuing academic achievement etc. Its just that you might recognize this sorority by their hijabs instead of their curvasious bodies, so to speak.

And a potential member doesn't have to be muslim, but then they should not be offended by certain practices or the name we call our Creator, or who we say our prophet is. They shouldnt be offended if we find passages from the Qu'ran more than the other holy books. They shouldnt be angry over what are considered our holidays as opposed to theirs. If that's the case then Gamma Gamma Chi wouldnt be a good fit for them. There's nothing discouraging them from joining, if they meet the requirements and believe in the mission of the sorority. Even if they never accept Islam as their religion, that doesnt mean they can't be a member. However, they should agree with the sorority in some way or why else would they join it.

PEACE

I wish you, them, the best. But it doesn't fit in with my idea of what a sorority is. That doesn't mean I think you shouldn't exist because if you exist it means there's a need for it. So I'm sure you'll do well, but in my view it will always be a religious organization. Good luck.

-Rudey

I am not currently a member of Gamma Gamma Chi but it is my hope that some day I will be. I went to their informational where they explained their mission and principles. I have been following the sorority since fall last year. I subscribe to their newsletters and when certain news articles have errors in them it would be explained as to what is and what isn't true about Gamma Gamma Chi.

During their informational a lot of questions came up, so nothing I've stated has been privy information. Plus as stated I'm not yet a member to even disclose privy information. I do love the sorority and am a big supporter of it. When I started the search for a sorority it was just certain things that did not sit well with me, the main one being 'should I disclose my religion' That worried me greatly. When I spoke to others in those sororities they would always mention Christianity and its values. They would mention things about pledging that truth be told scared me and of which I could not understand the point of them doing it. I know that when you pray for something long enough it will come to pass. I don't ever think Dr. Collins' daughter ever thought she would be in any other sorority than her mother's but apparently the creator had other plans for her. And for that cause I support her and the sorority 100% and I've seen so many other sisters that convinced me that the time for this sorority is right. Apparently they had been saying the same prayers.

PEACE

I think if you are trying to stand out, as an "Islamic" sorority, why accept Greek (and of the classical period, pantheonic) letters? I believe they are accepted for who they are. If they are not trying to fit in, then why the hell would you use greek lettering? Your sentence structure is poor and therefore, it is difficult to understand what you are trying to say. Why would one wish to not assimilate into American culture, if one is to live and work here? Assimilating does not mean losing one's religion or morals, mind you.

Well if and when you do become a member I would like to know. Please keep us posted.

I don't see your signature line showing your affiliation to a fraternity but I'll go ahead and assume you went to college. With that said, that means you should know how to use deductive reasoning also called critical thinking.

Many assume that Greek letters equal caucasian christian male but that is far from the truth. Greek letters are used because it is in the Colleges and Universities where individuals start to rationalize and begin to critically think. Prior to college students were only getting the basics. That means all they were learning was how to function in this world.

It is in College that they begin to apply thought. (if you are confused let me know, otherwise I'll keep going) Plato, Socrates, Pythagoreas and most of all of our great minds came out of the Greek era. So when a fraternal organization comes together (usually in college) they apply the greek letters to show that they too are pursuing academic excellence, growth and critical thought. In fact most fraternities and sororities are created to help facilitate the learning environment of students and encourage them to complete their degrees. The whole University system is based from Greek culture, so do you believe I should not attend college as well?

I don't believe any new sorority is trying to fit in, moreso they are trying to have something for themselves without disrupting or causing confusion with the already existing organizations. It's better that they go off on their own than to sit in your organization causing you grief and poorly representing you. (If you cannot agree with that statement then why are we talking)

It is not my objective to confuse you or to write where you cannot understand me. However, since you are the first in this board to use derogatory words, then its safe to assume that you don't understand me because your vocabulary is limited. So in this regard, what more can one expect.

PEACE

Do not insult my vocabulary, when your sentence structure leads me to believe that you have not been in America for too long. Do not insult my intelligence, because I am agnostic and am therefore smarter than you.

I will reply when your sentence structure and vocabulary have reached to a point that enables us to discuss the issue. That is, take ESL for a couple more years.

We wont continue this discourse. I am born and bred American. In fact my ancestors have been on this land far longer than when yours stumbled upon it, but we won't go there, at least I won't. I write legal briefs for a living, so the problem you are having with my writing structure is either (1) you have a limited vocabulary or 2) you do not know law.

Had I not been American, your comments are biased and prejudice and proves why several fraternities and sororities are needed in this country. America where freedom rings. You don't know all there is to know about all americans. Admit that and move on. You do not have the solution to cure all, so get off your high horse and let people be themselves.

So busy trying to force people to fit in your mold of what you perceive things should be. So busy trying to force people to write, speak and dress like what you think is the right way, best way and only way. That you are blinded to the fact that those same acts are what discriminates and seperates people from one another. It bothers you that people are not what you expect them to be. It bothers you that an islamic sorority can come to exist. It bothers you that the black sororities and gay/lesbian and multicultural ones came to exist. "Why cant we all just join one group hold hands and be happy" is your answer. That could happen if people didn't try to force themselves on one another. Don't you worry about my sentence structure, for if you are so much smarter than me as you claim to be, then you understand clearly what I have stated herein.

This conversation is taking a turn for something unproductive thus, I'll end it as it began in . . .

PEACE

:confused:

Well (and not to knock her for forming a new sorority) if she wanted it that badly then she could have waited until alumnae. And trust many have been denied in a collegiate chapter and gone on to be accepted in an alumnae chapter.

Thus I don't think she or her mother needed to bring up our name in their press interviews.

Having said that, I wish Gamma Gamma Chi much success.

Precisely.

I wish Gamma Gamma Chi success and good luck to ATL in her pursuit of this organization.

As an aside, as this organization gets more members it will hopefully not need an aspirant to speak in its behalf. ;)

Thanks for the info about what "committing shirk" means.

I have to point out, though, that here you say "I cannot speak accurately as to these things because I've never been in a sorority to know what goes on in them," yet what prompted me to ask the question was your earlier statement "there are a lot of things in other sororities that goes against Islamic beliefs, such as committing shirk" -- a rather heavy charge to lay from someone who says she's "never been in a sorority to know what goes on in them."

From my vantagepoint, the earlier statement "there are a lot of things in other sororities that goes against Islamic beliefs, such as committing shirk" shows very little understanding of any GLO I'm aware of.

Best of luck to all.

Maybe I don't fully understand what shirk means to muslims because worshipping more than one god is against christian beliefs also. What exactly is the difference? This is open to anyone to answer. Are there greek lettered organizations that require their members to look up to someone as a god? Or is this practice unintentionally done by members of sororities? How is a muslim sorority able to prevent this practice?

I think the example of big sisters being against Islamic beliefs really threw me off. Is it taught that people should not have role models?

check your pm

I "commit shirk" everyday

Although I am muslim, I have heard different explanations for the word shirk. It could be something major like associating something else with God..or minor like saying an oath (pledging your life to that one organization). You also have to understand that muslims have different opinions on just about everything--some are conservative while others are liberal with how they practice the religion.

Quote:

I think the example of big sisters being against Islamic beliefs really threw me off. Is it taught that people should not have role models?

This interpretation of big sister is just absurd. There is nothing wrong with looking up to someone or having a mentor in an organization. If anyone says its unislamic, just ask for proof in the Quran.


At the end of the day, I don't understand why this organization is creating such a stir. Christian and Jewish fraternities/Sororities exist based on Jewish Principles....so why can't an Islamic one exist as well? It's not a big deal, people!

I'd love to know what Jewish fraternities/sororities exist based on "Jewish principles" and what those principles are. I've seen a Christian sorority and fraternity on here and, again, in my opinion those are really not much different from church groups. They are religious. I don't think anyone said this is a big deal either.

-Rudey

I don't know that anyone is making a big deal out it -- just trying to understand it, which isn't always easy for those of us who have limited exposure to Islam and therefore may not know or appreciate what is meant by the "Islamic principles" that would be reflected by this group or might, as can be inferred from ATLG1RL's posts, sometimes be compromised in other GLOs.

Dude, leave your winkie out of this discussion. Keep it in your pants where it belongs.

Maybe she's referring to AEPhi, AEPi and SDT?

SDT has a partnership with Hillel. Just as SDT and AEPhi are often considered to be historically Jewish. In fact, you really could call a lot of other NPC sororities "historically Christian"

My boyfriend's mom was a member of a nationally large NPC sorority (not saying which one) in the early 1970s at a large northern university and they absolutely refused to initiate a Jewish girl. They didn't know she was Jewish when they gave her the bid, and their reasoning for denying her initiation was that she couldn't partake in a ritual with Christian roots.

BF's momma feels bad about it now, of course, but back then she said that everyone just accepted it because their sorority was "CHRISTIAN based."

Obviously I'm not a member of a sorority with ties to the Jewish faith, but I can imagine how if some NPC rituals invoke Christian or Jewish religious imagery that the ladies of GGX would want to form a ritual that left it out or invoked some of their own religious imagery. If the majority of their time spent in the sorority is dedicated to religious purposes (prayer, study, etc), then it's a religious group. From what I've seen so far, they seem like most of their time will be spent in activities that are not really religious just like any other social sorority. That's why I personally don't see them as a religious group. But of course, you're free to disagree :)