It's also those damn Fanta Fantana commercials. What's up with them?

So are you saying that you get angry anytime people have different opinions and post them on a message board?

I trust that everyone here can protect their letters from "unauthorized use" within reason. I have no problem with that.

However, I do take issue with Greeks who worship their letters to the point that a nonmember can't use a pen or umbrella, or even drive a car that has the Greek letters or org's name on it. To those Greeks, I say, "Get over yourself; it's not that big of a deal"

That, IMHO is outright idolatry, and at that point, you are not protecting your letters, you are worshipping them almost as if the letters were a god itself.

I suspect that at least one poster in this thread (one of the most outspoken ones at that), is worshipping her letters and is curious why everyone else isn't doing the same.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.



*But I doubt it* :p :D

No, I get amused when you post to me.

So how are you any different from some of the other people in this thread? What you consider "idolatry" another org may consider "correct protocol".

How about everyone follow their org's protocol, and then everyone will be happy.

You are evil and you must be stopped. :o

Okay but I'm still fascinated by the wearing-your-boyfriend's letters thing. I understand that it's a traditional thing for some. But what does it MEAN to those who do it?

That's what I'm still curious about.

I don't think it necessarily means anything. I wore my ex-bf's fraternity letters for no real reason.

I guess part of it was the same reason I always wore the little ring that he gave me for Christmas one year... Because I was proud of him and proud to call him my boyfriend. I guess it was a way to feel connected to him. And yes, that could be done without letters too (as it often did), so it wasn't necessarily about the letters but about HIM.

But, there are some girls who just wanted to wear fraternity letters to show that they have some kind of connection to that fraternity. And there are guys who do the same thing with sorority letters.

Depending on what the "correct protocol" may dictate, I would still call it idolatry. At least the National officers admits their letter worship to some degree, which in some respects is redeeming.

Ex. If protocol dictates the prohibition of non-members wearing the letter or sheild, then that IMHO is not idolatry.

If protocol dictates the prohibition of non-members touching or using non-clothing items adorned with the letters or shield, that that is idolatry.

I do believe in a balance and a reasonable "use of 'nalia by non-members" threshold.

The tradition as it was on my campus is that you Lavalier a girl or pin a girl if it's pre-engagement. She should only be wearing your letters if she's been lavaliered or pinned. You love this girl so much that you put her on par with your brothers. You want her to wear your letters so she knows that she is just as important to you as those letters are to you.

It's a HUGE deal at Butler and at Wabash, generally the guy gets beat up over it or humiliated by his brothers and the girl has a candelight where he shows up with his brothers and presents the lavalier or pin.

Have you seen anyone state that their organization's protocol is this extreme?

The idolatry, if this word must be used at all, comes on the part of individual members and their extremist tactics.

Simply put, Jubilance1922 stated that (paraphrased) one man's idolatry is another man's protocol, and protocol trumps all, including what may be perceived as idolatry. Thus, whether or not anyone explicitly states that their protocol is this extreme is irrelevant.

I agree with you. Furthermore, yes, the word idolatry must be used because that is oftentimes what this whole debate boils down to, protocol aside.

In other words:

(A) I call 'em like I see 'em.
(B) If the shoe fits, wear it.

'Nuff said.

If you like it, I love it.

At the end of the day, I doubt that anyone is going to change their opinions or disregard their org's protocol based on the opinions of those on GC. As long as YOUR org's position on letters works for you, it doesn't matter what the other orgs are doing. That was my entire point. If XYZ is cool with "idolatry" as you call it, then what they do shouldn't matter to you.

I'll remember that (and remind you of the above quote) the next time I get admonished/hand cut off/public hanging for using an XYZ pencil to write a note, or drinking from an ABC coffee mug.

I can only speak for myself, and I wouldn't get on you for that. Its up to each individual org to say what is appropriate. So if XYZ says non-members can't use pens, then that member of XYZ shouldn't give you that pen to write with. That's different from a ABC buying a XYZ mug specifically for their own use.

VERY PROTECTIVE...
 

Tekes dont let their pledges wear the letters of TKE until theyre initiated... and the new guys know that very well...

If there is to be a mark upon them, they add an extra E to TKE... Therefore, pledges refer to TKE as TEKE on their personal clothing or other items... They can remove the extra E at initiation...

Only the big sis/little sis, wives, sometimes serious girlfriends wear letters - otherwise, NO OTHER MAN but a Teke...

As far as using a pen, I dont see whats wrong with that... A pens a pen... youre not actually wearing anything...

I wouldnt want another fraternity man to drive my truck, which has a BIG Tau Kappa Epsilon and TKE decal with flames... but if it were smaller, it wouldnt be a big deal...

I better not see someone wearing letters in any way though... not even the coat of arms!!!!

Don't worry about letters that are not your own. Follow whatever protocol your org. has set out, but forget what other orgs. are doing.

I would never let a friend or any non-member borrow any of my sorority shirts, unless she was in the sorority too. There have been some people who have left our chapter (not alumni) that STILL where their sorority apparel, which really makes me mad. I don't think you have any right to wear my letters if you're not in my sorority. If you're not in the sorority, why would you want to wear clothes that represent them or if you don't know what the letters mean or such?

I read Jubilance's post. It is relevant for the reason I stated in my post.

This message board would not exist if we did that.

My point exactly, and THAT is where the idolatry comes into play, where one places a higher value of the letters over the value of the item itself. I mean, I can't use a 15 cent disposable pen or a 7 cent pencil or a 2 dollar coffee mug because it has a certain org's letters on it? Take away the letters, and it would be a plain old pencil/pen or coffee mug. That is the ridiculousness I am hearing from some members and that is why I call it idolatry.

Quote:

So if XYZ says non-members can't use pens, then that member of XYZ shouldn't give you that pen to write with. That's different from a ABC buying a XYZ mug specifically for their own use.

Perhaps XYZ should exercise some conventional wisdom and use some discretion by stating as protocol that letters/sheild are not to be used on such items as pencils, pens, mugs, and umbrellas. In other words, use them on items that non-members will be unlikely to have access to for their own use. That protects your letters in a major way and increases assurance that non-members will not use it for their own purposes.

The problem is, you and Jubilance are coming from two different paradigms in relation to the points you are trying to make. My response was solely directed at Jubilance's post and paradigm of thought. No more, no less.

Therefore, focusing solely on Jubilance's frame of mind, I read her post as her bringing up the issue of protocol strictly from a hypothetical standpoint, not an actual standpoint, as you are trying to allude to. In light of that, I felt that whether or not someone explicitly stating their particular org's protocol as extreme as irrelevant.

If you have a point you are trying to make, please do so directly, as I am not understanding what you are getting at. If you are trying to allude to individual members taking protocol to extremes, I understand that and I agree with you. But I don't see what this has to do with whether or not anyone stating that their national protocol having such extreme measures.

Hope this helps.

I know. I see you do not really understand my comment to you.

I know you don't. It's okay.

ETA: I wasn't correcting your post to Jubilance so no need to provide a summary of what she posted and what you posted. I am just stating that it seems as though the people posting in this thread aren't admitted extremists. So, we all agree that extreme is bad but abiding by organization protocol is good.

My family drives my old truck, DZ decal on the back window and all. I guess if my stepdad doesn't mind tooling around town with a pink and green sticker on the vehicle, I don't either--it's not like he's going to be mistaken for a sister. :p However, I don't know what I'll do when my younger sister inherits the truck next year...I will probably ask her to take it off.

Commit to something, then you will know why
 

Some people take their letters to extremes, just like some football /soccer fans, school alumni.....

I think the reason some people do this, idolatry as you call it, is based on their experiences of how they became 'whatever'.

For example, let's say there was a young woman who grew up in Boston going to the Boston Red Sox games with her dad. Sadly, her dad dies and the one true connection she had with him was the Boston Red Sox. She is such a strong fan of the Boston Red Sox because of an emotional connection she made via the team. Its not so much the team that she is connected to, it is the relationship that she made while going to the games with her dad - the team represents a strong relationship she had that meant something to her.

Same with greek letters. One is not worshiping the letters / organization per se, it is just that during the intake / pledging period relationships were formed, emotions were expressed, you learned more about yourself and others. The greek letters represent a period in your life when you changed. Some people are protective about their letters because 1) they know and respect what they have learned about them and 2) it is a represenation of bonds that were made and since not everyone experienced that bonding, then that person feels that not everyone can 'use a pen' with his / her letters on it.

And...I've seen some greeks who are not very protective of their letters for various reasons.

Re: Commit to something, then you will know why
 

Sigmadiva, while I see where you are coming from as far as being indoctrinated into your respective org, that still doesn't justify the lengths and extremes some people go to in order to protect their letters.

Personally speaking, I was a die-hard Alpha Phi Omega brother. I ate, breathed, and slept Alpha Phi Omega to the point that my relationship with the org bordered on idolatry--I'm talking attending APO functions, representing with nalia, and searching far and wide for tidbits of historic trivia facts and collecting and compiling them in a blue binder.

Having said that, I never saw the point of keeping someone from using a pen or a glass just because it had the APO letters on them. Matter of fact, I went out on a date with one woman, and she was a little cold, so I gave her my blue APO cardigan to wear--and I let her keep it for about 2 weeks, no questions or complaints. I later gave it to a Gamma Sig as a souvenir (I was told that the sweater was later jacked from her by some fellow brothers--who, I don't know).

Also, my mother "borrowed" my airbrushed APO shirt with the shield and letters on it--and got her drivers license picture taken wearing it. I could've made a big stink about it, but I didn't see the point, and the net result of it was it really wasn't affecting anybody.

Again, a love for something or someone is one thing. "Love" to the point of worship is another.

That would be a shame, wouldn't it. It makes no difference to me what other people do with their own letters. I'm not going to tell you what to do with your letters, and I would expect you no to tell me what to do with mine.

The only flaw in this argument is that most orgs don't make their own items. If orgs could REALLY control what their letters went on, we wouldn't have those dreaded sorority thongs.

Watch out- personal opinion coming. ;)

I honestly don't care what other people do with their own letters. I might have a problem if someone was wearing MY letters and out acting the slut or something, but there's really not a whole lot I can do about it.

I would probably not let another girl wear a shirt with my letters on it (especially when I have so many without letters). But, I would also not let someone be cold rather than wear them when there is no other option. That is just human decency. Anyone who puts their letters above a friend has bigger problems to deal with.

I have no problem whatsoever in seeing a man wear my letters, or letting a man wear my letter shirts. Keep in mind that I am talking about casual letters- no man (and definately no woman who is not a sister) will be wearing my badge or my crest. There is just no reason for that as far as I am concerned.

I would also never wear another sorority's letters if I don't have to. I had an ex one time who's apartment was ALWAYS freezing and the most compfortable sweatshirt he had was an old Tri-Delt date party sweatshirt- so I wore it inside out (but never in public).

I never have and never will see any reason for me not to wear fraternity letters (shirts and such), but I also don't think I would wear my boyfriend's badge. I also see no reason for that, just as I see no reason to wear another sorority's badge.

For people who maybe wear their husband's badge- I thought lots of orgs make "sweetheart" and "wife" pins. Maybe I'm wrong.

I just remember my ex saying that they consider their greek letters very special and there are only a select few places that THEY can even have the greek letters. He specifically told me that the only women who get to wear their greek letters are (i think) wives and mothers. And I believe they had a special pin for those. Again, I COULD BE WRONG.

Ok, end of personal opinion. :)

:rolleyes:

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


See, I can be just as obnoxious as you are!

:rolleyes:

I don't think anyone has been born yet who can do that.

If I were to type what I'm thinking, I'd be real wrong and the gay brigade would get defensive.

Don't be so easily bothered.

guuuhhhhllll....you so cwwwaaazzzyyyy!!!!!


*snaps fingers in a z*

ask your frat.

:o