There are a hell of a lot of "loudmouths" on the reverse side as well.

People don't have to support this war. They don't have to support this president. They don't have to support this current administration. Regardless of what your Republican mindset tell you.

Why Blaine, how DARE you disagree with the war and the President! GTFO of here if you don't like it.

Thought i'd just save the hard-core, hard-headed GCers the time in posting ;)

Nice, and classy too. I'm sure glad those aren't my letters in your signature.

THANK YOU, Russ!!!!!!!!!!! And for the rercord, Russ is neither republican nor democrat, so don't think he's siding with the 'crazy liberals', Amanda.

Seriously, and I REALLY mean this - what do you NOT GET about the fact that I can bitch and moan all I want because this IS a free country. One I am very proud to be a citizen of. Did you bitch and moan when Clinton was in office? OR, if some democrat gets elected in 2008 and starts doing things you absolutely disagree with, will you smile big, cheer for that person, and talk about how happy you are that he/she is in office? As I said before, I am involved for change on the grassroots level, I do what I can to make the changes I want and get the people elected that I agree with.

The fact that you have equated being unhappy with the President and his policies to your college student government and quitting a job you don't like just shows how you will never see the point. I'll throw up my hands and give you a big old :rolleyes:. I won't go so far as to call you "stupid" or an "idiot" as you have so nicely and maturely called many of us.

And how do people support the troops?

It's one of those empty statements like "Make love, not war."

-Rudey

I heard Mrs. Sheehan will be protesting outside of John Kerry's house because he voted for the Iraq war.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

Is it on moveon.org?

-Rudey

Oh get over it Rudey - really who else should she protest in front of if she is opposed to the war?

Who lied about WMD? Who 'manipulated' intel to fit with the build up to war? Who told the UN that definative evidence of mobile Bio-labs existed? Who told the American people about Uranium from Niger? Who discounted concerns from other nations with intelligence on Iraq? Who ignored the reports of the UN, Canadians, French, Germans, Russians, and even yes the Brits? Who dismissed the general and reports that more troops would be needed? Who said that the troops would be greeted with "flowers and kisses"? Who has obviously failed to plan for the occupation? Who fired the economist who said the war would cost 200B? Who claims that the war would pay for itself are now shown to be laughably wrong? Who linked Saddam and 9/11 in speeches? Who declared combat operations over? Who smuggly told the insurgents to "bring it on"? Who appointed the General to Abu-Gharib after allegations of abuse in Gitmo and Afghanistan? Who declared that the Geneava Convention will not apply in Iraq or Afghanistn? Who policies have been killing more Iraqis per year than Saddam did? Who policies and lies have lead many coalition members to abandon Iraq? Who policies in Iraq have managed to create more terrorism world-wide?

Answer: The White House

So who should a protestor angered by any over the above protest against - the White House, as it is represented and led by Bush.

Is her protest valid - yep.

Is her goal of getting the troops withdrawn immediately vaild - nope. Simply because withdrawing the troops after making a mess of things in Iraq is beyond short-sighted and self defeating. Ultimately the US and the UK should stay in Iraq for the long haul... if only to drive home the lesson that wars should not be entered so lightly and on such flimsy ground of justification.

Rob,
Perhaps you would like to get over the fact that you're not American?

Repost of my post:

I heard Mrs. Sheehan will be protesting outside of John Kerry's house because he voted for the Iraq war.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

Is it on moveon.org?

-Rudey

Why should I get over it? For me it's a matter of pride not to be an American but a Canadian - just as I hope it's a matter of pride for you to be an American and not something else.

All that aside it is interesting you chose to ignore the entirety of the post, and dismissing in the same old tired way of "you aren't American so you have no voice". As if the Iraq War and the questions regarding its planning and prosecution somehow only affects the US, and that these questions and protests are only a matter in the US...

Guess what citizen of many countries are dying in Iraq and elsewhere because of this war - do the terrorists/insurgents cite Afghanistan as their rallying call? No, instead they cite Bush's assine statement about a crusade. No, instead they cite the "unjust" war and occupation of Iraq.

Pull your head out of the FOXNews reality (ass) and think about what impact the White House's policies have had on the rest of the world - particularly with regards to global security.

I heard Mrs. Sheehan will be protesting outside of John Kerry's house because he voted for the Iraq war.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

Is it on moveon.org?

-Rudey

Voting for Bush does NOT make me a Republican. It makes me a voter. I do not consider myself Republican or Democrat. I do not consider myself a liberal or a conservative. I consider myself an American, just as everyone else does.

I do NOT agree with everything that Bush does or says. I think that some of his ideas and policies are rediculous. (WHY exactly is it bad for the country if gay people get married?? I have no idea and I don't agree with this idea at all.)

BUT, I do support the administration (and still would if it was Democratic), I support our President, and I support every man and woman who has the courage to go over there and defend our country. I have respect beyond belief for them.

None of this makes me a Republican.

I have never said that everyone has to support what is going on. But, I do still think that they deserve some amount of respect. And I don't appreciate people being rude to me simply because I support the war. I am not rude to those who disagree with me. If anything I have said before has come across as rude, I apologize- it is never an intention.

And I will say AGAIN that I am not one of those GTFO people. I think that idea goes against the freedom of ideas that the founders of our country were seeking. But, I do say AGAIN that if you are going to be childish and say, "I'm going to leave the country if so-and-so is elected." Go ahead. I am talking about the extremists here. I am not talking about those who simply disagree with the administration.

I would also like to add that I think someone saying "I would like to see Bush taken out by any means necessary." is pretty out there. Are you saying you would like to see the President assasinated if it meant he was out of office? I find that to be rather extreme. I don't think I would ever say that about our President, regardless of party affiliation.

I am not asking you to agree with me.... I am simply asking that you respect my opinion and my right to it.... Just as I do for you.

To actually answer your question- I have not heard anything about that yet. If I find something about it, I will post. :)

Very interesting editorial. Thank you for posting that link.:)

It's ok buddy. I respect your opinion although I don't agree with it. I respect your opinion while you are hopefully wishing that other people that don't agree with you will also respect your opinion. I just don't think calling those people "loud mouths" will help with any respect given and/or deserved.

It's pretty simple. of course we all want our opinions to be respected, such is that case that you may want to take a step back and respect the opinions of some of these so-called "loud mouthed" individuals, you know? That's all I was simply trying to say.

Also, I didn't call you a Republican, I said your "Republican mindset" and in this case there is a huge difference. I was making it in reference to your statment regarding people supporting the war, the president and this admin.

I'm sorry but I don't support the war and I can't even begin to support Bush for sending our troops to Iraq where almost 1900 have died to date. I don't respect that at all, if you do that's fine, I respect you for respecting that but I can't bring myself to do so.

I do not wish to see the pres taken out by any means necessary ( I realize you were making a general statment there).

I do not want to leave this country. I disagree with certain things currently but hell, I make a shitload of money, I'm going nowhere.

In my generation it was, "America, love it or leave it."

I didn't like the conotation then, either.

Re: Re: Re: Re: I dunno you guys & gals...
 

Okey, where's your source of information?

I ask because how do you explain joint military exercises by the Chinese and the Russians with the intent to purchase Su-22M's and Tu-22M's near the Chinese Russian border???

Yeah, far from N. Korea... But how far can a missile really go? The Russians or some former Soviet Republic DOES have ICBM's that DO move around quite rapidly aimed at various locations in the US... And do you think those computerized tracking plans have changed?

And given the fact that Clinton was thinking about taking out NORAD...

I've given you my source...

Either way, we've gotta a problem... We still have nuclear tipped warheads from some lunatic fringe groups/countries that are aiming toward the US... And detente is NOT working in these folks minds...

'Cuz I's PO!!!

I cain't git no wheres, cain't goes no wheres and cain't bees no wheres...

I ain't GOT NO KINNA J-O-B...

I feel institutionalized and I'm on the street...

And the revolution will not be televised...

Lol were you watching Girlfriends today? :D

NCOs and lower-grade officers are disgracefully underpaid, especially if they're stationed in or around metropolitan areas. But, I know from personal experience that higher-grade officers (Captain and above in the Navy, Colonel and above in the Army and Air Force) are very well compensated--especially when one considers the housing allowance, free health care, and retirement after 20 years. It's next to impossible to get that in the private sector with the same level of education.

I think wanting decent compensation (ie, a living wage) for airmen and privates is a huge part for me in supporting the military while not being a huge fan of the war. But yes...this is another topic entirely. :)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I dunno you guys & gals...
 

An ICBM is an InterContinental Ballistic Missile. Despite the name, it is understood to mean that it can hit a target, half way around the globe, in under 30 minutes. You probably meant an IRBM.

Do you actually know what SU-22s and TU22s are? You can read about the SU-22 here:
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/su-17.htm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/tu-22m.htm

These are very old designs. Why would China buy them from Russia? Also, considering China's reputation with intellectual property rights (I'm thinking specifically about the many Soviet/Russian military designs that China has stolen over the decades,) why would Russia sell to them? MOST importantly, how is this relevant to anything discussed in this thread?

AIn addition to all of this, you have not provided any sources.

Also, what are you talking about with NORAD? Is that just a non-sequitur thrown in for fun?

As far as what's going on in the minds of North Koreans, how do you know?

<Applause>

I agree. I'm sorry for your brother.

I think that the mom had a right to protest. Just becasue you are against the war, doesn't mean you're anti-American. Speaking out against the war IS AMERICAN. We were given rights. One of them is a right to freedom of speech.

We should have not been in Ira after Saddam Hussein has been captured. After Sadam we should have been focusing our bums on capturing Osama bin Laden. I believe that if we were to focus on bin Laden and captur him, then probably the Madrid and London bombings would not have happen.

Bush should worry about things that are more important here: gas prices, NCLB, crime. As a matter of fact, homicides have gone up and my city will pass that mark from last year. In fact, we are almost at that rate right now. Did Bush reinstate ban those weapons that were on the gun control bills? I didn't hear anything.

Bush is hurting the minorities, poor, and middle class people. The only people that Bush care about is the rich people. The minimum wage is horrible, and people who are getting paid by this are suffering. Go to a grocery store or order pizza. Are the prices higher than before? Some people can't afford milk, bread, eggs, and meat all together.

I speak proudly against the war, and if you don't like what I said then I'm sorry, buthe war is just not right, period. Now, if this was WWII, I would suppprt the war. WWII and the current Iraq war are two different stories.

Sorry, but he is currently on vacation.


I also heard in the news today that some school supplies are now more expensive because of the price of petro, i.e. crayons.

:(

I had a whole long response typed out, but I realized that no one here wants to hear the point of view of someone who supports President Bush and in the end it will just upset me. So, here is the only part of it that I felt comfortable stating. If you expect people to respect your opinion on the war, just please make sure you respect people who disagree with you.

As for the price of gas, it is as has been regularly, around the $5 mark in Europe for years. We are still paying much less than they are.


I have someone who I care VERY much about. He went to a military college knowing that he would likely be in a dangerous situation at some point. He will be leaving for Iraq next summer.

I also have a friend who has recently RE-ENLISTED in the Army. In 2 weeks he will be leaving for his third tour in Iraq.

I am terrified for these people who I care about. But they are both confident that they are doing the right thing, the necessary thing and tell me not to worry. I will continue to support what they are doing over there.

Lindz928, you got more patience than I do....I finally started cussing at the computer and keeping my responses to myself because I knew it was a waste of time to argue my point anymore. But youre absolutely right, they are doing the right thing and the best we can do is support them.

Why does people not agreeing with you over something political upset you to that point? How can you deal with anything in real life? This has been a decent discussion and hasn't been all that heated. Both sides have tried to post intelligent thoughts.

AGAIN- WE HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO DISAGREE WITH THE WAR. For those of you who seem to get SO upset because people disagree with the war and the President, perhaps you should become more familiar with the first amendment and the founding of our country.

I have to say that I found your post slightly rude. "How can you deal with anything in real life?" I personally don't appreciate that, even if it was not directed toward me.

And to imply that us getting upset means that we don't understand the First Amendment is just offensive.

We also have every right to our opinions, and my feeling is that that opinion is not respected. I do not feel that I can post some of my true feelings because every opinion I speak is meet with posts that are trying to shoot down how I feel, and sometimes even full of sarcasm. I find that very disrespectful.

It saddens me that no one here will just let us agree to disagree. My opinion is just as valid as all of yours. I think we need to remember that when it comes down to it, we are all on the same side here. We are all Americans and we all want our loved ones to be safe. I would love it if we could focus on that, but sadly apparently we cannot.

Thank you.

A lot of people on GreekChat like to argue for the sake of an argument. Maybe it's because they're training to be negotiators or lawyers or whatever, but the longer I'm here, the more I've noticed that.

Once you realize it, and learn not to give them ammunition, it's a lot easier to state your opinion, and let them have theirs. I'm not saying to back down, I'm just saying that picking your battles is a part of life.

I think it's agreed that we want all of our loved ones to be safe.

It bothers me that the military who are sent overseas are not equipped with up-to-date equipment. How many articles have been printed about families who have to pay out of pocket costs to send for improved protective vests so their sons and daughters will be kept safe? I couldn't find any numbers online that showed the percentage of Congressional members who have sons and daughters serving in the war.

It seems that our government isn't doing a good job in appropriating funds so that military families don't have to scramble to have basic needs met. If average Americans are expected to take a hit in the pocketbook for the war, why can't Congress take a paycut in salary?

The initial group of military families, that included Mrs. Sheehan, who were chosen to meet with President Bush were most likely screened to ensure that they were pro-war. She has a right to change her mind.

Is it true that the number of dead counted don't inlude the soliders who come home and die on American soil as a result of their injuries sustained in this war?

I do think you have a very good point here. If our men and women are going to go to war, then they should definately be equiped as well as possible!

And Honeychile, thank you for your comments. :)

Quit complaining about the 1st ammendment. It goes both ways. I have as much right to my opinion as you do yours. The problem is that people on this board are attacking those of us who are supportive of our troops, and the president and what is being done right now because we dont agree with y'alls point of view and you pull our the first ammendment card, but yet you seem to forget that the first ammendment card works in our favor too, NOT just yours.

I haven't been attacked, and I've been vocal in my support for the troops. My 1st AMENDMENT rights are fine and well, thanks.

I'm not sure why you can't tell the difference between people getting annoyed because of how you behave vs. people getting annoyed because of your opinion.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I dunno you guys & gals...
 

I asked the security guy that in DC when I was there in November, 2004, he said, "Naw, the N. Koreans have ICBM capability"... Don't know what that really means, but that's what he said... Don't know what his true credentials are, but he said he was former Delta Intel...

My source for the SU-22s and Tu-22's is from the Seattle Times Newspaper. Not the most reliable source of true information, but, they did state that the Chinese have these items on their "military shopping list" from Russia...

Yepper... Just for fun since at the time of my last post, I had not heard what bases were up for closing, but I do remember Clinton trying to list NORAD as a base closure back in the day...

The only way I know of anything is reading the press and watching the news and seeing if 2 and 2 fit together. But I don't know anymore than anybody else knows... But homey up in N. Korea having nukes does not sound like a cool deal to begin with--as well as Iran having nukes...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Interestingly, I saw a brief spot of Cindy Sheehan telling the "world" about her issues and wanting to meet with Bush again...

Why she sound like a preview a fight match on a Jerry Spinger or Maury Povich Show??? With the fight bell "ding"??? Can we say, "Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me"???

You're right and you do. But see, none of us have told you to GTFO because you don't agree with us. That's is what is upsetting us - NOT your support of the president.

If y'all are going to preach on about the 1st Amendment, learn how to spell it. The Constitution is a pretty sweetass dcument that way.

GP, who is using her right to "bare arms" today because it's nice outside

I'm sorry for her loss, but I heard Ms. Sheehan on NPR today, and she was a real jerk to the guy who was trying to do what I thought was a decent interview.

No way to win friends and influence people.

Can we stop saying "I support the troops" as a point of argumentation?

The truth is, 99.9% of us do not, in any real way, 'support' the troops in a real sense of 'doing something to ameliorate their situation' - what people instead mean is something along the lines of "I have expressed approval, sympathy, respect, or some other positive adjective, along with hopes for the safety and survival, for our troops overseas. I did this by purchasing a 3-dollar ribbon for my car, and this money did not in any way go toward 'supporting' the troops. I'm such a douche that I didn't even get a sticker, I got a magnet, I didn't want it to fuck up the paint on my 1994 Corsica."

Regardless of your position on the war, the reasons behind occupation, the actual status of the troops on the ground or your reasons or reactions to the actions and well-being of these troops, in ALMOST EVERY CASE you are not actually providing 'support' for the troops in any way. It is NOT a point to include in argumentation.

(Sorry.)

I'm sorry, I take your post completely seriously, and think it is a valid point.

But for this quote, I have to say: Hahaha. You made me laugh. Thank you. :)