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-   -   AL Teen Missing in Aruba (https://greekchat.com/gcforums/showthread.php?t=67116)

ThetaDancer 02-05-2008 08:44 AM
Did anyone watch the special on 20/20 last night? They played the tapes of Joran van der Sloot basically confessing to his friend and it was extremely disturbing. He showed no remorse and seemed to think of himself as a "victim" almost.

ZTAngel 02-05-2008 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SigKapAngel767 (Post 1594374)
Ah. Elaborate, please and thank you. :)
Same thing that Scott Peterson has. The person is so focused on themselves that they show no feelings or empathy towards the people around them.

SigKapAngel767 02-05-2008 08:59 AM
Gotcha. Very sad. I know people that are actually diagnosed with this. It's hard on everyone around them.

Scandia 02-05-2008 09:04 AM
Quote:
If you are out with someone who falls unconscious because of alcohol poisoning (or anything else), the normal thing to do would be to seek medical help, even if you were afraid it was too late.

You wouldn't assume the person was dead and dump the body out at sea and then repeated lie about what happened, would you
Of course not. I would have called 911 (or whatever the emergency number is) frantically and summoned help quickly.

The date rape drug is a possibility that I had not thought of- but just as likely. I read in some accounts that Van der Sloot had had sex with Holloway and then she began shaking and died so he panicked.

He is still wrong. He still did wrong. He still needs to pay the consequences.

srmom 02-05-2008 11:07 AM
Quote:
He is still wrong. He still did wrong. He still needs to pay the consequences.
Yes, he does, but I don't know if the Aruban authorities will, or can, do anything (they have kind of seemed like the Keystone Kops). But, I watched the 20/20 show last night, and it definitely seemed as if he was "unbeardening" to that guy - no way that he was lying like his lawyer is saying.

Natalee's mom said that she isn't really caring about the prosecution by the justice system anymore, that she feels peace knowing the truth, and that it was closure for her. She also said that even if he is not prosecuted, he is going to be living in hell knowing that EVERYONE knows he was involved and how cold and callous he is. He will have to bear that for life.

When they interviewed people in Holland, after they watched the Dutch program, they all said that they believed he's guilty as hell. Try getting a job, or making more than the few friends he may have. He's a worldwide pariah now - that is pretty good punishment even if they don't prosecute.

honeychile 02-05-2008 11:33 AM
It's funny, I just keep thinking that, had she not met up with Joran van der Sloot and his hopefully co-defendents, Natalee Holloway might have been on GreekChat, gone through recruitment, and would be a sister to many of the women here.

Yet I congratulate her mother for being able to find peace. May Natalee also know it, wherever she is.

Scandia 02-05-2008 11:47 AM
How can he even sleep at night?

And yes, I do think that Natalee Holloway would have been an asset to any NPC sorority or any other GLO of her choice. From the way the press described her, she seemed like a kind and sweet girl who was very friendly and enjoyed serving others. Not a troublemaker at all.

MysticCat 02-05-2008 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scandia (Post 1594381)
The date rape drug is a possibility that I had not thought of- but just as likely. I read in some accounts that Van der Sloot had had sex with Holloway and then she began shaking and died so he panicked.
My understanding is that the FBI concluded that she had been drinking heavily and had taken GHB before van der Sloot arrived on the scene.

No question that the guy's a scumball. But unless the standards under Dutch law are significantly different from those under American law, I'll be very surprised if they can convict him on homicide.

SATX*APhi 02-05-2008 12:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOPi_Jawbreaker (Post 1594249)
On another message board I frequent, someone was speculating that maybe he had drugged her and raped her. And then he dumped her into the water to cover his tracks (either she was alive and he dumped her into the water so she couldn't press charges, or she had died or was unwakeable from the date rape drugs and he panicked and dumped her into the water). I haven't really been following the case so I don't know how plausible this theory would be.
Exactly my thoughts.

I don't think her murdered her, per se, but I do think he drugged her and she passed out. Based on his supposed confession tapes on 20/20 last night: If he hadn't done anything wrong then why was he afraid to call 911 after she went into convulsions? Why would he need to dump her out at sea?

Munchkin03 02-05-2008 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scandia (Post 1594381)

He is still wrong. He still did wrong. He still needs to pay the consequences.
I do not like green eggs and ham.

I do not like them, Sam I Am.

KSig RC 02-05-2008 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 1594454)
My understanding is that the FBI concluded that she had been drinking heavily and had taken GHB before van der Sloot arrived on the scene.
Exactly - and note that GHB is not "date rape drug" in a strict sense (in that it isn't a benzo/hypnotic like rohypnol or other drugs with, essentially, purely nefarious use), although there may be isolated incidences of it being used for that purpose.

It's at least as likely that she took one or more drugs of her own volition and died as a result of their interaction - including if cocaine was involved, as currently hypothesized, because that can introduce a series of wildcard interactions.

The Van der Sloot kid's still a monster douche, but most of the posts here really seem to ignore the facts of what the American kids were doing that night.

jon1856 02-05-2008 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 1594504)
Exactly - and note that GHB is not "date rape drug" in a strict sense (in that it isn't a benzo/hypnotic like rohypnol or other drugs with, essentially, purely nefarious use), although there may be isolated incidences of it being used for that purpose.

It's at least as likely that she took one or more drugs of her own volition and died as a result of their interaction - including if cocaine was involved, as currently hypothesized, because that can introduce a series of wildcard interactions.

The Van der Sloot kid's still a monster douche, but most of the posts here really seem to ignore the facts of what the American kids were doing that night.
What were they doing?:confused:
Breaking curfew and drinking?
Yes, that part in 20/20 was stupid. As stupid as some of the other activities we have seen posted in RM thread here in GC.
But just how can what they were doing have any kind of comparison to either raping/killing someone or just covering up a death?

I was just down in Aruba (right before this came up again) and everyone was just down right nice. While we did go to several local restaurants, we did not go to any of the bars. We are a bit older and just do not drink.
However, we were in downtown a few times and never felt threated at all at night.
And GHP has been used as a date rape drug; was just part of a story about Rodger Clemens trainer.

KSig RC 02-05-2008 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1856 (Post 1594548)
What were they doing?:confused:
Breaking curfew and drinking?
Yes, that part in 20/20 was stupid. As stupid as some of the other activities we have seen posted in RM thread here in GC.
But just how can what they were doing have any kind of comparison to either raping/killing someone or just covering up a death?
Jon -

At no point did I make an explicit or implicit comparison - I don't think there is any need for or point in comparing the actions of the deceased with the actions of the living. Besides this, I don't have any basis for such a comparison even if I wanted to make it - that's actually my main point, and where I think this thread gets awkward.

Additionally, I'm not blaming the victim here in any way - I think that's a completely useless exercise as well.

My point here is that, for example, you can throw around the term "rape" but we don't know whether they had any non-consensual sex (we don't even know a true intoxication level to use that definition of rape), and it seems pretty silly and worthless as a point of discussion . . . and many posters have made conjecture as to what 'happened,' on a lonely beach in Aruba where no one was actually present, without any real basis for this conjecture, and while ignoring the actions before any contact with the Aruban derelicts.

Maybe she was drugged - maybe she drugged herself. The two seem at least equally likely, and both really serve little point in this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1856 (Post 1594548)
I was just down in Aruba (right before this came up again) and everyone was just down right nice. While we did go to several local restaurants, we did not go to any of the bars. We are a bit older and just do not drink.
However, we were in downtown a few times and never felt threated at all at night.
I'm not sure why you posted this, but congrats on the great vacation!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1856 (Post 1594548)
And GHP has been used as a date rape drug; was just part of a story about Rodger Clemens trainer.
I noted that it has been "used" as such in my post, Jon.

The overwhelming majority of GHB use is recreational, and acquaintance (or other) rapes do happen while a person is intoxicated on the drug (just like alcohol) - it can also be used for nefarious purposes, but has a much stronger history of recreational use than rohypnol or other drugs that are, quite literally, "date rape drugs" in that this is their primary use (this is what "strict sense" means). Media portrayals have given GHB and Ketamine, among others, this label, and it may or may not be fair, but it isn't really necessary to jump to this conclusion in this case, especially in relation to what I mentioned earlier about a total lack of connection with "rape" (and the fact that it was taken of their own volition). These drugs are dangerous in their own right, even above and beyond a risk of rape or sexual assault - it is borderline irresponsible to cast them in a specious light for that reason, at least in my mind.

Btw - remember the context of why GHB was included in the Clemens story? Well, Radomski sold it, too - one reason: weightlifters use it to help cycling on and off certain regimens, sometimes including steroids (supposedly it increases HGH production; it's never been proven, and the connection is tenuous at best). It's banned by WADA and the IOC for that reason.

Once again, its use is not consistent with calling it a "date rape drug" and doing so only clouds this discussion further with conjecture and useless pandering to the basest level.

jon1856 02-05-2008 04:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSig RC (Post 1594592)
Jon -

At no point did I make an explicit or implicit comparison - I don't think there is any need for or point in comparing the actions of the deceased with the actions of the living. Besides this, I don't have any basis for such a comparison even if I wanted to make it - that's actually my main point, and where I think this thread gets awkward.

Additionally, I'm not blaming the victim here in any way - I think that's a completely useless exercise as well.

My point here is that, for example, you can throw around the term "rape" but we don't know whether they had any non-consensual sex (we don't even know a true intoxication level to use that definition of rape), and it seems pretty silly and worthless as a point of discussion . . . and many posters have made conjecture as to what 'happened,' on a lonely beach in Aruba where no one was actually present, without any real basis for this conjecture, and while ignoring the actions before any contact with the Aruban derelicts.

Maybe she was drugged - maybe she drugged herself. The two seem at least equally likely, and both really serve little point in this discussion.



I'm not sure why you posted this, but congrats on the great vacation!



I noted that it has been "used" as such in my post, Jon.

The overwhelming majority of GHB use is recreational, and acquaintance (or other) rapes do happen while a person is intoxicated on the drug (just like alcohol) - it can also be used for nefarious purposes, but has a much stronger history of recreational use than rohypnol or other drugs that are, quite literally, "date rape drugs" in that this is their primary use (this is what "strict sense" means). Media portrayals have given GHB and Ketamine, among others, this label, and it may or may not be fair, but it isn't really necessary to jump to this conclusion in this case, especially in relation to what I mentioned earlier about a total lack of connection with "rape" (and the fact that it was taken of their own volition). These drugs are dangerous in their own right, even above and beyond a risk of rape or sexual assault - it is borderline irresponsible to cast them in a specious light for that reason, at least in my mind.

Btw - remember the context of why GHB was included in the Clemens story? Well, Radomski sold it, too - one reason: weightlifters use it to help cycling on and off certain regimens, sometimes including steroids (supposedly it increases HGH production; it's never been proven, and the connection is tenuous at best). It's banned by WADA and the IOC for that reason.

Once again, its use is not consistent with calling it a "date rape drug" and doing so only clouds this discussion further with conjecture and useless pandering to the basest level.
Seem as if we are on same page; perhaps just different lines.

BTB Clemens trainer was suspected of giving it to a woman while in a team hotel.

Educatingblue 02-05-2008 05:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOPi_Jawbreaker (Post 1594249)
On another message board I frequent, someone was speculating that maybe he had drugged her and raped her. And then he dumped her into the water to cover his tracks (either she was alive and he dumped her into the water so she couldn't press charges, or she had died or was unwakeable from the date rape drugs and he panicked and dumped her into the water). I haven't really been following the case so I don't know how plausible this theory would be.
I don't think we will ever know if he drugged her or if she was a willing participant. I do find it quite interesting that we have not heard too much from her friends. You have to wonder what kind of friends would leave her (recent high school grad) on a beach, in a foreign country, with a strange guy they just met. Something must have clouded their judgment!

Drugs and alcohol could have definitely been a factor, but is possible jail time for drugs worth someone's life?!?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by srmom (Post 1594419)

When they interviewed people in Holland, after they watched the Dutch program, they all said that they believed he's guilty as hell. Try getting a job, or making more than the few friends he may have. He's a worldwide pariah now - that is pretty good punishment even if they don't prosecute.
Exactly! I would never want to work with someone like that. What happens if there is an accident at work...is he going to hide your body in a nearby dumbpster...I mean really!!!

KSig RC 02-05-2008 06:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1856 (Post 1594597)
Seem as if we are on same page; perhaps just different lines.

BTB Clemens trainer was suspected of giving it to a woman while in a team hotel.
Agreed - and forgot about that part w/ McNamee and the sex allegations in the pool, which is pretty bizarre.

Tinia2 11-18-2008 08:37 PM
Aruba police pursue new evidence in Holloway case
 
Aruba police pursue new evidence in Holloway case


SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico - A new witness has come forward in the 2005 disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway in Aruba, and prosecutors said Tuesday they are seeking more evidence against the only remaining suspect.....
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27790594/

Tips renew hopes of solving Holloway case
NEW YORK (CNN) -- Authorities in Aruba say they're looking into new evidence that could lead to an arrest 3½ years after Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway disappeared on a senior class trip to the island.
Aruban police are investigating two new tips they hope will provide the corroborating evidence they need to make an arrest, lead prosecutor Hans Mos told CNN.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/18/...way/index.html


I found this, right after it was posted, while looking for different news story. I hope this time something does come out of it.

Benzgirl 11-18-2008 09:42 PM
I have always had the feeling that the father knew what happened.

Kevin 11-19-2008 01:29 AM
I still think that this story is something certain elements of the media will dredge up every time it gets cold... because hey... free trip to Aruba for "work."

honeychile 11-19-2008 11:24 AM
Do you realize that she may have been a junior in college by this time? Maybe she would have been in a sorority, and posting here - she was active in a dance-drill team. She could have been a regular poster.

I think so many people see her as the girl next door who may have done well, and that's a large part of the continued interest. Well, that and as Kevin said, it's a free trip to Aruba.

nittanyalum 11-19-2008 11:31 AM
Free trip to Aruba, but also the long-awaited satisfaction in seeing that too-slick kid's rear tossed into jail. I hope he and his father rot, they've escaped judgement for this for far too long and I hope they really get nailed in the end.

madmax 11-19-2008 02:38 PM
There is a new video that shows Vandersloot bragging about picking up girls and then selling them to pimps.


I think she is turning $2 tricks in Thailand.

Kappamd 11-18-2010 04:39 PM
Bump.

Possible break in the Holloway case.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40259588...me_and_courts/

I think we all knew Natalie would never be found alive. At least her family will have some closure if these do turn out to be her remains.

DrPhil 11-18-2010 04:47 PM
Wow, 5 years later. Sad outcome and unfortunate example of victim precipitation.

Other than the unfortunate circumstances, this was a good thread. I commend her mother for never giving up and I'm sure most parents who have the ability to do so would keep fighting the fight. I never watched the entire Lifetime movie but it shows her friend yelling "Natalie, get out of the car" when Natalie rode off with the strange dudes. Who knows how accurate that was.

Alumiyum 11-18-2010 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhil (Post 2004739)
Wow, 5 years later. Sad outcome and unfortunate example of victim precipitation.

Other than the unfortunate circumstances, this was a good thread. I commend her mother for never giving up and I'm sure most parents who have the ability to do so would keep fighting the fight. I never watched the entire Lifetime movie but it shows her friend yelling "Natalie, get out of the car" when Natalie rode off with the strange dudes. Who knows how accurate that was.
Almost 6. (May 30, 2005). The Lifetime movie isn't terribly accurate in some respects (to my understanding) but it's a good reminder that you should play it safe when you go out, no matter how safe the location seems.

honeychile 11-18-2010 09:34 PM
I saw a documentary about Natalee & her family around the 5th anniversary, and what was so moving was that they had mentally realized that Natalee was dead within the first month. The rest they've done to discover the truth AND to help other young girls vacation safely.

May they all know peace.


Except the killer.

KSUViolet06 11-18-2010 09:54 PM
I know that the guy they orginally suspected (Joran Var WhateverHisNameIs) ended up confessing to killing another girl.

Did he ever admit to or say anything about whether or not he killed Natalee?

honeychile 11-18-2010 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 2004828)
I know that the guy they orginally suspected (Joran Var WhateverHisNameIs) ended up confessing to killing another girl.

Did he ever admit to or say anything about whether or not he killed Natalee?
More than once - but then he always retracts it.

VandalSquirrel 11-18-2010 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 2004828)
I know that the guy they orginally suspected (Joran Var WhateverHisNameIs) ended up confessing to killing another girl.

Did he ever admit to or say anything about whether or not he killed Natalee?
Quote:
Originally Posted by honeychile (Post 2004832)
More than once - but then he always retracts it.
He kept using "information" to try and extort money from her family.

Also the woman he killed, when he got caught, died on the same day as Natalee's disappearance. Creepy in a plum enchilada kind of way.

Alumiyum 11-18-2010 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 2004828)
I know that the guy they orginally suspected (Joran Var WhateverHisNameIs) ended up confessing to killing another girl.

Did he ever admit to or say anything about whether or not he killed Natalee?
He basically had to admit to Stephany Flores's murder, since he faced a lot of damning evidence. He's confessed to being present when Natalee died on the beach (though he admits he wasn't SURE she was dead) and having someone help him drop her in the ocean from a boat...but he took that story back like all of his other ones. He extorted money from the family by saying he would give them the location of her body. The location he gave was false.

I doubt he'll ever tell anyone what happened with 100% honesty, but it's nice to know he's where he belongs now (prison).

Jill1228 11-19-2010 08:25 AM
Actually, that bastard belongs 6 feet under. He's a waste of a human being

honeychile 11-19-2010 01:09 PM
^seriously.

I wonder if there's a wasy to find out where he was/what he was doing on the other anniversaries of Natalee Hollaway's disappearance? Just thinkin'.

Alumiyum 11-19-2010 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by honeychile (Post 2004941)
^seriously.

I wonder if there's a wasy to find out where he was/what he was doing on the other anniversaries of Natalee Hollaway's disappearance? Just thinkin'.
Probably not. He spread his uselessness to Holland and Thailand and basically just dicked around for a few years. I feel sorry for his mother, losing her husband last year and this year finally realizing what her son is. He screwed up three families, including his own.

Kappamd 11-19-2010 04:47 PM
Update:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=12191532

It seems to me that they think it probably is Natalee, but no one is coming out and confirming it 100%.

KSUViolet06 11-19-2010 04:49 PM
Not to sound morbid, but I kind of hope it is. Five years is a long time to wonder what happened to your kid. I mean, at least they would know.

Munchkin03 11-19-2010 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KSUViolet06 (Post 2004977)
Not to sound morbid, but I kind of hope it is. Five years is a long time to wonder what happened to your kid. I mean, at least they would know.
I hope it's her too. Also, if there are jawbones of young females being dug up in Aruba and it's NOT Natalee Holloway, then WTF?

ree-Xi 11-19-2010 05:24 PM
I can't imagine any punishment fitting enough for this f-er. I pray that Natalie and her family find some peace soon.

Alumiyum 11-19-2010 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 2004980)
I hope it's her too. Also, if there are jawbones of young females being dug up in Aruba and it's NOT Natalee Holloway, then WTF?
Good question. I do wish the Aruban authorities would be more considerate, sine Natale's father said he hasn't heard much of anything from them. Now that they know it's a possibility that it's her it's probably driving them crazy not knowing.

christiangirl 11-19-2010 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VandalSquirrel (Post 2004840)
Creepy in a plum enchilada kind of way.
:( Nice try but still uncomfortable.

ETA: And I kinda hope it is her, too. This is too heartbreaking to continue. I feel like this would otherwise be a Jon Benet story, dragging on for an age.

VandalSquirrel 11-19-2010 10:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchkin03 (Post 2004980)
I hope it's her too. Also, if there are jawbones of young females being dug up in Aruba and it's NOT Natalee Holloway, then WTF?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alumiyum (Post 2005004)
Good question. I do wish the Aruban authorities would be more considerate, sine Natale's father said he hasn't heard much of anything from them. Now that they know it's a possibility that it's her it's probably driving them crazy not knowing.
If it isn't her it could be a drowning victim or unfortunately another young woman who is one of the many who go missing all over the world and no one cares or notices. Though I hope it is her so her family and friends can have some closure and it isn't someone else's daughter.


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