It does not matter what I feel because she is factually incorrect.

Her research methodology is bad. She's using reductionism by using one and two very bad example, ignoring many facts within those countries, and over generalized her idea what the world looks like.

I know you're upset about the time you thought you were quoting Voltaire and weren't, but it's really time to move on from that.

It really is okay to disagree with your sisters when they are wrong.

Grilled cheese and beer would be a fine lunch. But I can't have it. Thanks for making me sad GP :( .

You can have it for dinner. :)

I totally respect that you have this viewpoint, but I am going to have to disagree with it. This is simply because the type of immigration reform you are advocating for is assimilation -- something I whole-heartedly disagree with. The reason for this is because (1) I believe the variety of people and their cultures in this country is what makes it so beautiful; (2) You believe in an assimilation of language, but think how your reasoning could just as well justify an assimilation of something as small as clothing or hairstyle and as big as religion or culture.

I'd also like to say, and this is not just for you, but for all GC-ers, that I have come to the realization that when we complain about certain aspects of our society, maybe we should attach our own solutions or alternatives to these problems based on researched observations. Therefore, I am going to give you my solution to this "illegal" immigrant problem:

1. Just as we do with "drug wars," infiltrate avenues of illegal immigration to stifle its future occurrence in the USA.
2. Give legal status to all undocumented immigrants under the age of 21.
3. These people must partake in some community or civil service.
4. Formulate an education system where immigrant children can learn English in an environment where their culture is not ostracized.
And finally,
5. Make more stringent rules for companies who employ illegal immigrants. (most companies just get a slap on the wrist)

I know that many of these are easy to say, but very hard to carry out. However, I think our government should be taking on more long-term daunting tasks these days, especially when it comes to reforming the education system. (but don't get me started with that one)
Please feel free to disagree with any of my claims or give your own solution.

Oh wow, you hurt my feelings. Really you did. I know that no one on GC is ever mistaken about anything they quote.

Let ask you ADPiZXalum, is evertything in this quote factually correct?

haha. Well, we know it's not.

But it's easier to call us all mean and evil and attacking people than it is to actually get together some FACTS.

No, that reasoning actually does not necessarily make sense. I was talking about some quotes that she used by founding fathers. I know that doesn't make us a Christian nation per se, but it does indicate what some of their personal beliefs were. I am a Christian as well as many others on this board, and I know that doesn't make this board a Christian board, that's ridiculous. I understand whoever made the point about those being out of context in the sense that their personal beliefs don't necessarily mirror their actions in the foundation of the country. But how are they not factual?

The following quotes have been attributed to the following founding fathers and early U.S. leaders:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine


Apparently they couldn't come to any conclusions on that whole "Christian nation" thing . . .

I didn't even touch on the whole religious debate. To be honest, I would not care less. Her assertaion and evidence is ignorant at best, down right stupidity at worst. She needs to take remedial class in research methadology because if she ever take a class with my old professors, they would fail her on the spot. Nothing to do with her philosophy, it has to do with using incorrect facts to cover up her assertation that no other religions are allowed in predominantly Muslim nation, anywhere in the world.

Yes, many of us are being hard on her. It has more to do with teaching her how to compile a hypothesis that the professor can appreciate and she can get good grades. Trust me, our lessons are cheaper than going to a class, failing it and taking it over.

Jefferson, who at best can be described as a deist, also "re-wrote" the Gospels, if you'll recall. he removed all of the "irrelevant" and "unbelievable" parts -- meaning those parts that would suggest the divinity of Jesus.

I have found that often times, the "quotes of the founding fathers" pulled from the Internet should be accepted with a great deal of scepticism. Sometimes such quotes may be real, but other times the "quote" cannot be traced back further than the 1950's and has taken on a life of its own on the Internet.

I think sugar and spice's post was a great example of that. Anyone can pull a quote off the internet, and quote it out of context, both textual context and historical context.

You can find quotes to support anything you want to see. But quotes aren't really hard evidence.

If you want to know the intent of the founders, you'd need much more extensive research. Just as in the law when the courts look at a law to determine what the statutory intent was, they look at it from a much bigger context than a isolated, out of context quote.

Did she say all Muslim nations throughout the world or did she mention just a couple like Iran?

This thread should be locked. You're all just going around insulting each other and Moe.ron usually locks up these types of threads earlier on.

-Rudey

Well, to me it's clear that, as nowhere in any of our founding documents does it say or even imply that the U.S. is intended to be a Christian nation, our founders as a whole decided that it was best that this country should not be a Christian nation. But maybe that's a leap. ;)

Her exact quote:

Oh, I certainly agree with you.

And it's much easier to prove that something IS something than proving something IS NOT something.

So, if indeed the US was founded as a Christian nation, then certainly there would be an abundance of documents and other evidence to support that. So far none have been found by anyone here!

And, as a quick lesson for Conniebama, here is why you need to GIVE CITATIONS and keep context in mind.

This quote comes from the following letter written by Adams:



Twenty times, in the course of my late Reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, "This would be the best of all possible Worlds, if there were no Religion in it!!!" But in this exclamati[on] I should have been as fanatical as Bryant or Cleverly. Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell. So far from believing in the total and universal depravity of human Nature; I believe there is no Individual totally depraved. The most abandoned Scoundrel that ever existed, never Yet Wholly extinguished his Conscience, and while Conscience remains there is some Religion. Popes, Jesuits and Sorbonists and Inquisitors have some Conscience and some Religion. So had Marius and Sylla, Caesar Cataline and Anthony, an Augustus had not much more, let Virgil and Horace say what they will.

(Excerpt of letter from John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817 -- John Adams, quoted from Charles Francis Adams, ed., Works of John Adams (1856), vol. X, p. 254; The Adams Jefferson Letters, The Complete Correspondence Between Thomas Jefferson and Abigail and John Adams, Edited by Lester J. Cappon, University of North Carolina Press (1959, 1987) p.509)


This letter was part of a series of such letters between Jefferson and Adams, in which Adams spoke largely of his views on Christianity and Jefferson spoke of his disillusionment with organized religions. Note the date - this quotation is from 40 years after the framing of the Declaration of Independence and 30 years after the Constitution, making it wholly irrelevant when commenting on the frame of mind of the framers with regard to the nation's founding.

Here's a hint, Connie - many of your quotations have similar endemic flaws. This is not, and never has been, a Christian nation.

Which is why I said that we can't assume that because SOME of the founders were Christians, the entire nation was meant to be.

I really don't understand what all or your problems are with living in a Christian nation. No, it doesn’t have to be in the Constitution to be factual. The truth is most of our nations forefathers were Christians (Presbyterians, Roman Catholic, Anglican, etc) And the constitution proved it with all of the freedoms and liberties that they knew at the time a nation would need in accordance with the BIBLE.

The reason why I keep waiting so long to reply is because I am getting bombarded with questions and statements, to which I felt I needed to respond. I do live in the real world and in the real world the rest of all of the countries in this world see the United States of America as a Christian nation. Just because we are a Christian nation doesn’t mean we . . . . Never-mind I was about to explain my original point again and I have decided that it would be a waste of my time.

I am sure ya’ll all lead happy and successful lives, but if you choose to allow one small statement that someone says over the internet get you this upset then ya’ll need to get a life. It is not your place to put me in my place (or attempt to) it is your place to sit there and read a post and agree or disagree with a statement. However, what you do from there defines your character on greek chat or anywhere.

If you choose to deny the Christian Heritage of this nation go for it. I will come back to read posts when I choose and if anyone else says anything remotely interesting I will respond otherwise have a wonderful week.

You're saying two different things here -- Christian nation and Christian heritage. The USA undeniably has a Christian heritage in that (1) the majority of its citizens have always been and (for now, at least) continue to be Christian, and (2) the values of those citizens have inevitably shaped national policy and national culture.

But this is not a "Christian nation" for the simple reason that, unlike in many European countries, no form of Christianity is established by law as the national or established religion. It's that simple.

I am not denying the "Establishment Clause."

Let me summarize:

1) This thread was ridiculous in even its topic - it created a foundation that conservatives are "un-nice" and that the thread creator is out to look for the "nice" ones.

2) The United States does not have an official religion or language, but its history has really made it quite evident how much Christianity has played a role through every Great Awakening (supposedly we're in the midst of the 4th).

Did I cover everything? Is everyone happy?

-Rudey

Wow Rudey that was a very cleansing post.

Thank you for your insight and gift of summary.

Except for West Virginia.

I had to laugh that this came up on Yahoo news just as we were debating this.

::sigh:: I give up.

Please do.

-Rudey

Umm, as a teacher here in CA, I know for a fact that students are rarely taught in their L1 (or primary language... remember not all illegal immigrants are SPANISH speaking, as the United States has a huge influx oF Asian illegal immigrants, comparable to the numbers coming from Central America) It is actually against the law in CA, to teach using bilingual instruction, as in accordance with Proposition 187; every few states actually allow bilingual instruction. Furthermore as a proponent of bilingual education, teaching students in English-only is not only ineffective in comparsion, but hinders student learning in other academic subjects. So, you can "rest assured" that the state (CA has half of the English Language Learners within the country within its education system) with the most ELL (English Langauge Learners), are NOT learning in Spanish!

You also speak of billboards and television channels in Spanish, well guess what, that has nothing to do with promoting their lack of English, but is soley based on ADVERTISING. So, you can speak to McDonald's and Coca-Cola, explaining to them that they should not nurture these people's use of Spanish. By the way, here in LA, we also have several Asian papers, television channels, and billboards in predominately Asian areas, so remember it's not just the evil "Spanish" speaking people.

In addition, you speak of all the "evils" of these people, however, let me assure you for every one "bad" illegal immigrant, there are ten more who bring their children to school everyday so they can excel and achieve as they go and scrub your floor, cut your grass, and pick your agriculture.

I respect your opinion for what it is worth and I know its not going to change your mind, but I have a little more factual knowledge on the subject.

Now off to write a billionth paper for class... damn grad school!:D

Um, to "hijack" this thread back to the title/topic, I know several nice conservatives. In fact, most I know are nice. There's sort of an "agree-to-disagree" attitude there. It's always the few that are extreme and will not even tolerate another viewpoint that piss me off. They and the "I'm going to vote this way because Mom and Dad/all my friends are and anyone else is just wrong" people really get under my skin.

Like the guy that interrupted our guest speaker at our College Democrats meeting tonight. The speaker was former AL Gov. Don Siegelman. Agree with/like him or not, he was there to talk about reforming AL's constitution, not necessarily policy. But homeboy just had to interrupt him. I think he actually got more interview time with the campus paper and TV station after the meeting than Siegelman.

Start Quote***
Umm, as a teacher here in CA, I know for a fact that students are rarely taught in their L1 (or primary language... remember not all illegal immigrants are SPANISH speaking, as the United States has a huge influx oF Asian illegal immigrants, comparable to the numbers coming from Central America) It is actually against the law in CA, to teach using bilingual instruction, as in accordance with Proposition 187; every few states actually allow bilingual instruction. Furthermore as a proponent of bilingual education, teaching students in English-only is not only ineffective in comparsion, but hinders student learning in other academic subjects. So, you can "rest assured" that the state (CA has half of the English Language Learners within the country within its education system) with the most ELL (English Langauge Learners), are NOT learning in Spanish!

You also speak of billboards and television channels in Spanish, well guess what, that has nothing to do with promoting their lack of English, but is soley based on ADVERTISING. So, you can speak to McDonald's and Coca-Cola, explaining to them that they should not nurture these people's use of Spanish. By the way, here in LA, we also have several Asian papers, television channels, and billboards in predominately Asian areas, so remember it's not just the evil "Spanish" speaking people.

In addition, you speak of all the "evils" of these people, however, let me assure you for every one "bad" illegal immigrant, there are ten more who bring their children to school everyday so they can excel and achieve as they go and scrub your floor, cut your grass, and pick your agriculture.

I respect your opinion for what it is worth and I know its not going to change your mind, but I have a little more factual knowledge on the subject.

Now off to write a billionth paper for class... damn grad school!
End Quote***

__________________
Ummm, never in my message did I talk about the "evils" of these people. In fact I believe I was suggesting that they come here legally and pay into the system so they can receive something back and so they are not taken advantage of by their employer and given 10 dollars for a days work and no health benefits. How is that evil???
Also you talk about "bad" illegal immigrants, well heck, there are "bad" people everywhere, it does not matter what your race is,and then again for every race there are good people. You do not have to be an illegal immigrant to clean floors or pick agriculture, there are other people who do this work as well and instill great values into their children as well.
Also, about the billboards in Spanish and the ATM machines in Spanish, I know that there are other illegals here beside the Spanish speaking. I only used that as an example as here in the south that is the majority of what crosses the boarder and stays. If you come to North Carolina I will show you all the billboards , magizines, newspapers, etc that are all in Spanish. We don't have any other language that is advertised or you have a choice to pick on the ATM machine...at least yet.
And I agree with you, learning two languages is a good thing. I have a friend that has a daughter that is 4 years old and already she can speak Spanish. Count to ten, knows her name, knows some phrases etc. and she is as smart as a whip!! However, my friend and her husband chose to send their daughter (and pay) for her to go to a montisorri(sp) school. I did not have to pay for her to learn this.
Whenever my husband and I have a child and they attend school I will be sending them to a Montisorri school so they can also learn a different language maybe Spanish or I can choose another language. But you see that is my choice. I don't think that I should have to pay for everyone elses children to learn Spanish.
Now don't get mad at me for saying that. This is America and it is a Capitilistic society. I shouldn't have to work hard to have things in life that I enjoy only to see Joe Schmo who dosen't do a thing enjoy the same that I have, that would be communism, and that would be wrong!!(at least for America)
I feel that there is not enough money in the education system as it stands already and unfortunatly the children have to feel this. I think that what money has been diverted for second language classes (which apparently is not in every school accross the nation) should be redirected into the arts. There are schools all over the nation that are hurting and are trying to keep the arts alive in their school system (although I do not know about CA but I would assume that they are hurting in the arts as well).Music programs are looking at getting axed, art teachers are no longer at a lot of high schools. I just feel that the money I pay into the education system should go for tha basics, math, english, reading, science, and the arts, without art this would be a sad place to live.
Again, sorry for all of my rambelings. I do not mean to offend any one these are just my views. And on a side note I have very much enjoyed reading the views of everyone else...I love America!!
Hope you do a great job on that paper!!:)

Alright I'm hijacking it again...

I don't really see what's wrong with public schools offering a foreign language requirement. If anything, it helps and the earlier your start, the easier it gets. I think every child should get that opportunity.

I look at it as a sign of the times. Many job applications I filled out recently asked if I spoke any other languages... most were non-profit and hospitality positions. It makes you more valuable in the market in case you want to venture into international business or if you have international clients... Hell, even if you are working in retail, it helps.

I think foreign language is just another aspect of the fine arts.

Side note: ATM machines actually have 3 languages. English, Spanish and Braille. I think in Hawaii, there was another but I think due in part to the high tourist population from Asia. But I'm being nitpicky because everyone else seems to be. :)

Edited because I apparently can't spell 'braille."

Public Service Announcement: The 'enter' key is your friend :)

So is spellcheck. Lots of Montessori schools are competitive. I can't imagine they'd want the child of parents who can't master the name of their school.

Off topic, I know, but Ms. MysticCat and I once said the same thing.

Then we actually had children.

Montessori schools are really good fits for some kids and really disastrous fits for other kids. Our son would have floundered horribly in a Montessori school, because he really needs structure that Montessori schools, by definition, do not have. Without that structure, he simply doesn't do well.

We are all much happier having him in a public elementary school where he gets that structure, where the curriculum includes an emphasis on arts and science, and where his 20+ classmates include Hispanics, African-Americans, an African and a Muslim (the latter being rather rare in these parts). As far as I'm concerned, learning to interact with people quite different from him and learning that they, too, can be his friends, is one of the best educations he'll get. And I really love the educational value that comes from the mere fact that one Latina classmate is named "America."

The point is, don't enroll the kids yet. Wait until there actually here and you get to know them, and then find the school that both fits your values and your child's specific needs and personality.

[/high-jack]

That's why I like public schools.

Plus, I think you're letting your kids adapt to a much more realistic pace of life: there's structure, people who are different than them, etc. in the corporate world.

All things to take into consideration when you're thinking about Montessori schools, private schools, religious schools, etc.

Well, I'll admit it: the first time I saw Braille on a drive-thru ATM machine, I freaked!

Plus you can go to a public school and take girls away from the private schools.

-Rudey

Most of you will be excited to know that I am leaving the public school system to teach in private school. Now you can all have a big sign of relief that an annoying conservative Christian will not be corrupting any young minds. :D :D :D

I'm never excited when the public schools lose a good teacher. ;)

YOu have a new fan!