I reread that book right before the start of every school year. While a lot of what he says applies much better to elementary school, I take to heart what he says about dressing professionally, framing my degrees, etc... I am a professional.:)

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Teacher's salaries
 

I hate unions.

Our cleaning staff is union and they suck. They know they can be lazy as they want and they still won't get fired.

We don't pay large amounts of money to McDonald's workers or Retail sales people . . and they probably deal with worse people everyday.

it's retail?
come on.. even i have worked retail... i have dealt with bad people, but other than that, working retail is pretty brainless :)

when i was 16 i also worked in the fast food industry.. once again, does not take skill of any kind.

for both those jobs, once i left, i was done with it.. i never once had to take work home or work on lesson plans nor was i ever responsible for making 30+ people learn something. my job duties were almost purely customer service.. it doesn't take a degree or two to push buttons on a cash machine.

That's right. Working retail is brainless and teachers are brain surgeons.

-Rudey

From someone who worked 3 years in retail during college and is now a teacher...

They don't even COMPARE. Sure, I had my fair share of obnoxious customers, but once they were done screaming at you, they left your store, and you didn't know when, if ever, you would see them again. Their parent isn't going to call and blame their child's actions on you. You have an obnoxious student, and they're in your class every day, causing you all sorts of headaches... and then their parents join in.

You leave your retail job, you're done with it for the day. You leave your teaching job, you have papers to grade, lessons to plan, curriculums to write, textbooks to evaluate... I don't work from 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. I work on school stuff until 8, 9 p.m. some nights. Because I have to.

You can't have ANY idea how hard it is to be a teacher unless you're actually teaching, no matter what you might think. I worked as a sub for several months and still had no idea until I was hired.

You know, I wasn't even going to comment on anything you've said Rudey, because thus far what you've said has been rather demeaning to my profession, and quite inflammatory. While I don't always agree with what you say, normally I can see your point, but quite honestly Rudey, that was a ridiculous comment.

No one said being a teacher was being a brain surgeon. It's not a job that just anyone is qualified to do, in that sense like a surgeon of any kind. I'm proud of what I do for a living. I work hard and I do the best that I can every day to make sure that I put care into my work because I chose this profession and what I say and do may make a difference in the lives of my students. Please don't continue to belittle it the way you have.

Listen, I didn't belittle anything or anyone. But there are things I don't understand. I can never go get a PhD in chemical engineering at a top school because I'm just not able to. I can't ever run a sprint in the olympics because my lungs, legs, and musculature are not made for it. I can however deal with 30 nasty kids, with nasty parents and teach. I won't like it. I will hate it possibly. But I can do it. The same goes for retail. I would hate it (and did when I worked in retail) but I could do it. Nobody says anything when someone acts like retail is a job most people can do, but they take issue with teachers.

Now as for why you became a teacher, how much you make, and how much you deserve to make: again, it's fair in that you make what the market determines you are worth. There are more than enough teachers out there that they can offer that wage. Teachers are not leaving and driving the supply down so obviously the wages and benefits like pensions and vacations are worth it. Now, the only thing able to affect the market here is the union and that pushes your wage higher even though people do not see it as worthy of the wage you receive.

If it was up to me, nobody would be hungry and everyone could be rich and happy. In my little imaginary world, you could drive a Bentley. But I live in reality and you shouldn't try and say I'm belittling what you have. You are a teacher and enjoy it? Fine. Great. Wonderful. But if you say you deserve more, I say I deserve more, and the dude at Burger King says he deserves more...well...

-Rudey

well i just stumbled across this thread so i haven't had a chance to read everything everyone has said. i'll do that later.

but i wanted to put in my 2 cents.

honestly, after becomming a teacher i realized how different things were than how i THOUGHT they were back when i was in high school. yes, most teachers have masters degrees, but also have to get up to 90 additional credits over the years they teach. i never knew that as a student.

some teachers leave right after school so they can pick up their kids from day care/bus stop....but they bring home all their work with them! other teachers stay late because they don't have to be home right away. it's not fair to judge people who you see as "leaving early" because you just don't know their family situation.

i don't think a salary of 39K is reasonable. how can you purchase a house with that? i'll give you my example: i have my masters and over 60 credits above it. (each credit is 15 hours of work...you do the math!...it's a LONG process!) i earn close to 60K and will soon be making more when i get to 75 credits and 90 credits. (each credit mind you costs $200!!!!!!--again, do the math!) a small house in a not great area on long island is a minimum of $300,000. a decent house in a decent area is $450,000 +++++. even making $60K, i can't come CLOSE to affording a house yet. and i've been working 5 years!

i have my undergrad loans, masters loans, and have paid (out of pocket) for ALL of those 60+ credits (again--remember they are $200 a credit).

so am i really making that much money? no, i'm not. i've put in a lot of time, money and energy into making myself a great teacher.

it really isn't fair to complain about other professions unless you have personally experienced it. i spoke with a mom the other day who told me "you make it look so easy but i know how much you do. thank you for what you do for my son." that was a great thing to hear.

teaching isn't the easy job it's cracked up to be. i personally could never be a lawyer because i couldn't do it. i give them tons of respect. do i think lawyers need to charge the sometimes outrageous fees they do? no. but i also realize they have worked hard throughout school and need to pay bills and loans as well.

What you just mentioned is the same for a lot of other professions.

$39K for a first-year teacher is pretty good when you consider that a first-year architect in NYC makes about $32K. You can add about $10K with a Master's...but with the average architecture Master's program in the area being around $800/credit, the loans start adding up. Also, unlike a M.Ed, a M.Arch is full-time and it's pretty damned hard to work even part-time while working on that degree.

But, my friends and I aren't complaining...because we knew what we were getting ourselves into.

Go do it...then tell me you can. You KNOW you can't be a PhD candidate for a ChemE program, and you KNOW that you can't run in the olympics...but what makes you KNOW you would be able to be a teacher? Something like 80% of teachers quit with in the first 2 years because it's so friggin' hard with such little compensation.

And in what state does a first year teacher make 39k?

NYC

ok. i've read the whole thread. many people made great points on both sides of the argument, but some people just sounded foolish.

do people really think all elementary teachers do is play with kids all day and teach them "2+2"? give me a break. i've taught K, 2nd, 4th, remedial math and academic enrichment. never once have we played all day. people don't understand that teaching young children new concepts takes an enormous amount of time and effort. go to someone who speaks chinese and have them tell you how to sing a song in chinese. have them tell you several times, and then have them write it in chinese for you. since they taught it to you you should get it right away, right? it should be a piece of cake, right? maybe it's not the best example, but that's what it's like teaching sometimes. most material is completely FOREIGN to most kids and takes teaching it several different ways. then repeating it several other ways.

i am constantly learning new ways to teach. i have one girl with CP in my class. no matter what i do, it's very hard for her to retain what i teach her. so i keep at it. and keep at it. and try new ways to teach her. and call her in for extra help before and after school. and contact her mom for conferences to teach her how to teach the girl at home. and that's just one kid. add in the child who is emotionally disturbed, the one who is low tone and literally can't keep himself in a chair or hold a pencil, the one who is already reading on a 5th grade reading level in 2nd grade, the one who refuses to do work and throws things around the room, the one who is violent and choked a kid 2 weeks ago, etc. and yet i am expected to teach all of these INDIVIDUALS with INDIVIDUAL needs in one day. am i a saint, maybe:p . maybe not. but i am paid to do my job and do it well and i take that very seriously.

people who don't teach have no idea how long it takes to make and create fun and interesting lessons. for my daily centers (45 min a day) it takes over 5 hours of planning time. then math (about 2 hours planning time), social studies (8-10 hours planning time), science, guided reading, writing, etc... you get my point. and that's PER WEEK. i don't just open a text book and read from it (although i DO admit there are some teachers who do do that and they are a disgrace).

anyone who is in the long island area who would like to shadow me for a day or 2 is WELCOME to come. contact me and you can watch exactly what i do. and you can help me if you wish. i'm serious--the invitation is open. i guarantee you'll have a new respect, as i probably would if i shadowed you for a day.

i had a friend who worked in Bloomingdale's corporate offices in manhattan who used to help out in my classroom a few times. this is a CAREER woman who was making about 85-100K a year. she came to my 4th grade class and shadowed me i think 4-5 times. she was amazed at what went on and definitely had a new appreciation for teachers (she's an AEPhi by the way!). i had her "teach" math one day (i think it was long division) and she couldn't do it. now before you say "you are trained to do it", no i'm not. i never took a class in teaching long division. i figured it out on my own and with the help of colleagues. yet even with my help, she couldn't do it.

************************************************
my point is that everyone has a hard job. everyone deserves to get paid what they're worth. and everyone has a different level of skill and education. stop judging people based on what you think you "know" to be fact about a profession. unless you experience it, you don't know.

oh---and i know many lawyers who make several hundred thousand dollars a year. my uncle works in new paltz, ny (a small town ) and makes over $700K a year. at least. and i have yet to see him go back for any classes each year.

stop judging others. i wish i could make $700K a year, but know it's impossible because i chose a profession i love, not one where i'll become rich.

and i sure as hell deserve my $60K a year. for anyone who doesn't think i do--come to my classroom. i can't wait to move out of my parents' home and buy my own. but unfortunately with my measly salary, i have many years to save up.

just wanted to let you know that my masters WAS full time. i took a full course load each semester in addition to teaching full time. many teachers i know do that. i would work until 3:30 and then go to class 4 days a week until around 8:30-9:30 and then i had saturday class for the whole day.

not everyone does it that way, but a lot do.:)

I don't have time to read this entire post (I am a teacher after all...I don't have much time for ANYTHING.)

I just wanted to add that I was at my school for 14 hours yesterday. Yes - 14 hours.

Should I mention that was a FRIDAY?

I teach K-5 music (certified PK-12). I have friends who thought that all I did was "bang on my drum all day" and that I didn't have to really "work" because I was "only a music teacher."

Then I recruited some of them to help me put up the backdrop and props for a musical. THEN they came to see the musical...

They now stand corrected. I am responsible for 933 students. I have to give a progress report on each one every 3 weeks and two report card grades for each student every 9 weeks. I cannot remember a week (other than Christmas) that I have not had some sort of training to attend. Also, I have yet to have a summer off since I started teaching 3 years ago.

I live near NASA and almost every one of my guy friends is an engineer there. They have fully admitted that they basically sit on their ass all day and get paid twice as much as I do.

I think that teachers should get paid more for what we do. It is really not a fair salary for the amount of work, regardless of the seemingly "cush" calendar.

That being said, I enjoy my job. I did not initially go to college to become a teacher, nor did I "default" into this career, as many people seem to believe is the case for most teachers. On the contrary, I felt a calling to work with children. In addition to this, I am happy that for MOST of my day, I don't have to deal with a-hole adults. (the operative word is MOST)

If teaching were so easy and the pay were so fair, why does the average teacher last about 3 years in the profession?

***Edited to add: I taught in a unionized district in RI for my first two years and now I am in a non-union district in TX (which is how they almost all are here). I will go on record saying that I feel that the teachers unions breed mediocrity and keep crappy teachers in the profession. Here in TX, you get fired if you suck. Period. And the quality of public schools is MUCH, MUCH higher. When I was in RI, anyone with any means whatsoever sent their kids to private school.

Ok I skimmed through the thread . . I am sure someone mentioned this already .. . maybe Rudey.

The context isn't as simple as teacher salaries being too high or even too low.

The context is that public school teachers are basically government employees. That means they are not part of a system that creates tangible wealth. So all the salaries and bennies that teachers get, at whatever level, is paid for by tax-payers.

When teacher salaries go up, taxes go up to pay them.

So the question becomes, how much do we want to compensate government employees that exist outside a normal market system. There has been a backlash in the NE as police salaries approach 100 thousand a year for patrolman.

In the distant past, civil service positions, teachers etc, were generally not considered to be very well paid, but had a lot of benefits.

There was near perfect job security, more time and holidays off than the average person, and ususally excellent health packagaes and stuff.

In recent years, compensation for civil servants and teachers has gone up enormously. Mostly for two visible reasons, they are allowed to have unions and they are exempt from the normal free markets.

Now teachers and civil servants make relatively high salaries in a lot of areas and have great benefit packages as well as a great deal of time off.

So the issue is less, what are you worth based on intangible rhetorical factors, but what we as tax payers want to and can afford to pay you.

Oh and 14 hour days? A lot of people work them, especially salaried people.

What makes me KNOW is that it's an actual physical thing. You CAN work in a sweat shop. You CAN drink urine for $5 a day. You CAN'T do certain other things.

If your statistic about 80% is true, which I doubt, that shows you they CAN do it and do it for 2 years.

-Rudey

Supposedly teachers in long island are entitled to expensive houses in long island. This only applies to teachers though. The cab driver aren't allowed to have houses.

Now again. The market determines how much you're worth. If you have a union that value of worth is inflated. And if you are working in a sweatshop or somewhere that you don't have full rights, then your value is deflated. If anything, people that work in sweatshops can say they deserve more.

-Rudey

Please come teach my class for the next 2 months while I finish up my National Boards. Better yet, please come teach my class, coach my soccer team, serve on the leadership and school improvement commitees, finish planning hoops for heart and field day (with an international flair this year), drive the bus, and finish up my National Boards for me. I would love to have a social life for a change! Maybe then I can get my house organized, finish up on some reading, and catch up with all of my friends who live elsewhere. Thanks! (oh yeah, the grading period is almost over....427 grades are due to the SIMS operator by 9 AM that morning and parents need to be contacted for conferences. At risk charts also need to be updated and IEP's need to be revised. State laws says you must have them completed in full, and since we do not have an EC specialist anymore, you need to track down the APE lady and have her sign off on them)

I work 80 hours on average every week. Often I push 100 if there is something nasty to do. On a good week around Christmas my hours go down to 40-60.

And aside from the hours, come show me how good you are with financial math and client presentations. I'm sure you can try explaining to me how to create this model that I haven't been able to work the kinks out of for a few months.

In exchange, I will do what you do. I will physically do it because I can. You will sit in my seat and not do it because you can't.

-Rudey

one of my prophytes is a teacher, i highly doubt the people who are saying that they can handle 25 bad ass kids for 8 hours a day can actually do it. i've dated a couple, and i don't have the patience. some of them would come up missing.

should they be rewarded?

yea...no matter how easy people think the job is, none of us would be anywhere without them.

ITs not a matter of fair, its a matter of what we want to pay a public servant. Or to change it around, its a matter of whats fair to the tax payer.

Basketball players direct create monetary value, and they get a share of the value they create.

Teachers, unless they are part of a private school, exist off part of the incomes of other people.

As far as masters and Ph.D., I am not sure they have that much to do with teaching. A person's Doctorate in quantum physics is unlikely to directly make them better able to teach 3rd grade math.

Even higher degrees in eduation in general seem unlikely to translate to greated efficacy in the classroom versus the amount of time and money the teacher has to outlay.

Especially given that teaching heavily uses a people-centered skills set. Direct interpersonal communication.

A superlative salesperson would likely make an excellent teacher because of superlative people skills.

The proliferation of higher degrees in education is response to the artifical market. There are is a tremendous amount of people going to school for teaching. Requiring amasters operates as a barier to entry and provides a way to rate people in a non-competitive system for salary rewards.

Think, in a normal system sheer excellence would be rewarded with better pay. In artifical systems like teaching, seniority and "Ticket punching," such as taking more credits, is what is awarded.

I read a study a while ago that said that the distibution of IQs for Doctors and lawyers is the same as the general population. Meaning the averges are the same, not "smarter."

In fact doctors and lawyers draw from the same categories of people.

Not knocking doctors or lawyers. PhDd had IQ's above the normal distribution. They were "smarter" on average.

The sad thing is, when I start teaching, I will probably think my salary is HUGE because it's such a helluva lot more than I'm making now.

don't all government employees? like the president?

And it is because of teachers that those people were able to gain the knowledge they needed to get the job that makes them that income.

Okay, I have been on both sides of the fence as a private school employee and a public school employee.

As a private school employee, the pay was very low. My first teaching job was $14,500 for a MASTER's degree. They offered insurance, but it was so expensive that I couldn't afford it! The other private schools were better, at above the $20K mark, with health insurance and slightly better benefits.

As a public school employee, I am earning a significantly higher salary and I have better benefits. I am thankful every day that I have this position.

Most Masters and PhDs in Education are designed to help the teacher become familiar with the most current practices in education and learn about other areas of education ( administration), and to provide teachers with classes that will help them become highly qualified.

This is especially important now under the No Child Left Behind legislation. Schools in Alabama will not hire a new teacher/experienced teacher unless he/she is "highly" qualified according to those guidelines.

A couple of things after reading through this thread.

I don't see anywhere where Rudey has said that teachers are bad people, that teaching isn't a worthwhile profession, etc. He simply stated a fact that it's more difficult to step into his field without experience than it is to step into a classroom. If you're at all familiar with finance, markets and the industry, you would agree.

I doubt any of us could go in and perform a surgery. Very few of us could build a case for court, create financial models or write a novel. That's just the way it is.

I'll say again I'm speaking from experience; as I've said, I've had experience teaching, from preschool to early elementary school. This was while taking classes full-time in college. It's just a fact of life, more people could step into a classroom and do the job than in other jobs. That doesn't mean that it won't be hard, and it doesn't mean that teachers don't earn their money.

Secondly; I'd venture to say that we all knew what our financial outlook was when we took our current positions or decided to go a certain career path. I knew going into my current job that I wasn't going to make a ton of money, and that it would be after an advanced degree in another industry that I would be making a sizable income. As such, if you're going into teaching, you're not doing it to become rich.

Does this mean that teacher's don't deserve more salary? It depends on the teacher, the school district and a variety of other factors. There is a financial burden associated with the profession, though, and I think everyone who goes into the field knows that.

After the first couple of pages of the thread, I think people on the most part have been respectful of the teaching profession as a whole. I think we've pushed this thread into something very different, and that's where people are becoming heated.

sing it, sister! :)

Oh really? Why is that?

-Rudey

Firstly, how much you know about the field determines how good of a job you will do.

If it was possible, I could probably step in a courtroom tomorrow and try to be a lawyer, but since I never studied law (besides that one semester in contract law :p) I probably won't do a good job. And I think it's the same with teaching.

Secondly, I agree that most of us know what our financial outlooks are going to be based on the career paths we choose. Most all teachers know they will not become millionaires or even anything CLOSE to that when they choose education as their career paths. Every teacher I know (before someone flames me for this one, please note I included the "I know".. I may not know your high school teacher or your gym teacher or whatever) did not go into education to be rich. They did it because they love kids, they love helping kids.. They actually found their careers to be rewarding even though it it is not very financially rewarding (at least in my area).

I have a close friend who was considering the education field, and told me "I love working with kids, and I would love to help them learn things =BUT= I know I'm not going to get paid a lot" .. and it's true.

:rolleyes: that made no sense

No it made perfect sense actually. I'm sorry you don't understand a question with 3 words using very simple wording.

Perhaps you should speak with your teachers.

-Rudey

No you can't step into a courtroom and try to be a lawyer.

-Rudey

i'm sorry you're an ass and try to belittle other people to make yourself feel good.
maybe you should speak to a shrink.

Nobody is trying to "belittle" anyone. But thank you for insulting me and saying a I "should speak to a shrink."

Perhaps you should not only speak to your teacher about not understanding a 3 word question but also about misdiagnosing psychological disorders and also general manners as well.

-Rudey

not trying to belittle anyone? sure.. who's ignorant now Rudey :) Hmm that would be you. :)

Anytime anyone has an opinion that doesn't match your own all you can do is make snarky remarks about how dumb their opinion is and how everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

I actually think Rudey has been fairly well behaved in this thread and kept it to a civil, intelligent, decent discussion for the most part.

No. It's simple. You are wrong. Now you're attacking me. Please stop. You are now embarassing yourself.

I can't believe you belittled people that work in retail earlier. You are an awful person for attacking people like that. And then you belittle lawyers by pretending you can just step into a courtroom and be a lawyer.

-Rudey