Re: This arguement...
 

a few quick notes

My background is native american more than anything, and Irish- yes they were European- but look at their history- the Chinese were treated with greater respect, if that is what you can call it, than the Irish, who were not even allowed to have a job, go into most shops, and were left to live in "ghettos" (and that is a term of the times, not anything else). But still, I am more native america, so if you want to hear some B*TCHING try hearing their stories.


Wow, sorry here, but YOU ARE WAY OFF BASE!!! There are Jewish and Islamic members of YOUR OWN ORG! And you are calling them THE DEVIL! HONESTLY! I have always respected your posts and your views, but you have really thrown me for a loop with this one. I have to say that I am quite dissappointed in you, but what do you care since my skin is white.


Wow- okay, then, I know some very African American people that are apparently Klan members, I would hate for the grand wizard to meet them.

People are entitled to their opinions without having to be told they are KKK Members for being against something, or that they are the devil.

I have to say that post disgusts me.

edited to add- But I still think you are entitled to your opinion, even if it does disgust me.

I thought AKA_monet was being sarcastic - it is so hard to tell on here

i wish people would stop asking others to find research statistics to back up claims. most people have jobs and don't have time to do searches. if you want stats, find them on your own.

meremere--i am almost positive that your husband was passed up illegally because of race. the same happened to my uncle 20 years ago. of course no one can "prove" it, but the facts you posted about the process don't lie. other people don't know your husband OR the process, so they can ASSume all they want.

as for the religious debate---all i know is that i'm certainly not going to hell simply because i don't believe in jesus. talk about bigotry. that is a perfect example. religious freedom is a right that many people died for. are they in hell too?

and no, MY ancestors weren't responsible for ANYTHING about slavery in this country. talk about being discriminated against--my italian side lived in a tenement in hoboken with no electricity or running water in hoboken until my grandfather was about 10. they were considered uneducated and worthless because they couldn't speak the language and didn't finish school in italy. i guess that's what happens when you're poor and have to drop out of school to help get money for the family.

and my german side fled germany because of the nazis. i won't EVEN go into discrimintaion on that one---and we're not even jewish.

so MY ancestors were persecuted as well, but we have made giant strides on our OWN, with no help from the government or AA. i am the FIRST member of my family to go to and graduate college. i paid my own way--no scholarships because of my background. i'm in debt and will be for a LONG time. but i am damn proud of myself and my accomplishments--as well as my recent masters degree--which i also paid on my own:D

Please remember that AKA Monet talks like Tom Earp so I doubt she was trying to insult anyone. So no need to flip out.

-Rudey
--She's going to teach me how to pick up girls one day!

I think too many other people have already flipped out on this thread

No time to do searches yet you still have time to write 5-paragraph responses on GC? Bwahaha. If you really cared, you could google "affirmative action statistics" and come up with a handful of studies on who benefits from AA in half the time it probably took you to type out that post. Although, granted, if you're looking for a study that backs up the claim that white men are more discriminated against in the work world than, say, women of color, you'll probably be looking a mighty long time. ;)

As for the rest of your post, just because your ancestors had nothing to do with slavery (mine didn't either) doesn't mean you haven't benefitted from slavery. Heck, even if your ancestors were all abolitionists -- even if you're descended from Abe Lincoln! -- you've still benefitted from slavery in some way. Plus, discrimination in this country extends beyond the bounds of slavery. Some people act like as soon as slavery was over, race issues in this country were automatically fixed. Jim Crow laws, lynchings, legalized segregation (and NOT "separate but equal," either) -- in some parts of the country these all existed until almost 100 years after slavery's end.

Oh yes, it was only blacks that were not farely compensated for their labors and so people only benefit from their labors. Well since you're so freely talking about where you've benefitted from, I'd like a very large check made out to me.

-Rudey

ahhhhh we meet again. how fun.

nope i don't have the time or desire. 5 paragraphs takes about 5 minutes to write. that's all the time i'll take respoding to a thread.

well, obviously everyone's benefitted INDIRECTLY from slavery INCLUDING you.

thank you Rudey

Sharecroppers come to mind

cash78mere,

your grandfather was Frank Sinatra?

;)

When I hear Hoboken, the Chairman of the Board just automatically comes to mind (not to mention I'm trying to inject some levity into this thread).

I'm somewhat lost on this logic, maybe you can help me out.

It was his dream to be a Dallas firefighter or just a firefighter in general? In my experience most just dream of being the firefighter and it doesn't matter where as long as they become one.

Now he has a higher paying job in the burbs so in a sense didn't this "example of AA" work in favor of your husband?

ok I have already said that I'm not mad about AA - it was an example of AA in the everyday world. Yes it worked in favor. Yes it was a blessing in disguise.

Anyone that lives in North Texas knows that Dallas is practically burning down - there is a structure fire everyday almost. He loves the fire fighting part of his job way more than the medical calls. In the 2 years he has been employed he has fought 10 fires - Dallas fights that in 2 months usually. Thats the logic behing him wanting to be a Dallas fireman.

Which brings us back to dough...
 

AA should not be a race issue at all. If it were strictly a class issue, it would not be so screwed up. It should have zero to do with race, my friends. Why should race even be a factor? No valid reason at all...

If you are poor, and from a bad school that did not afford you the same opportunities that your peers from the 'burbs, you do deserve somewhat of a break.

That said, only if you were near the top of your class, an achiever, etc.

Why does race even come into it? It offends the people it tries to help. I would be very offended if someone told me they were going to give me extra help b/c I have German blood runnin' through my veins. But if I came from a shotty school, I would feel as though I deserved the help that was given to the rich kids all along.

Where's Arya when you need her...

I think I need a cookie... :(

Or at least a time out... :rolleyes:

I recommend subway cookies. They are pretty delicious but i no longer eat them :(

-Rudey

actually the families lived in the same building! my grandfather's family was very close with frank's parents. he had met frank many times, but there was a big age difference. it's kind of a neat family story!:D

you have that much experience with firefighters' dreams? how many do you know--1 or 2? that was THEIR dream, not meremere's husband's dream. maybe it was HIS goal to be a dallas firefighter but not your friends'

And how much experience do you have?

Either way that wasn't the point, the point is that I didn't understand the logic, I wasn't getting on her, I asked a few questions and made a statement. Oh, I think your caps lock is semi-broken as well ;)


For the record I happen to know quite a few firefighters (more than 1 or 2). I also happen to know a few police officers. There is a case study out there somewhere (hopefully I will find it because I can back up my claims even though I am a busy person). discussing this very topic. For the most part, people that go into the field of firefighting of police work do it because it was derived from a dream. Maybe it was during childhood or maybe it was expressed later on in life but the "overall concept" of the dream was to just become a firefighter or police officer.

I also say this because it is very hard for a lot of ppl to find work as a firefighter or police officer and a lot of the time there isn't much room to pick and choose - goes along with the dream "of becoming so and so."

She said herself it was a blessing in disguise and indeed it was.
He gets paid more to risk his life less.

I am sure she sleeps easier now than she might have, had he become a Dallas firefighter, where it seems they battle far more fires in that sector as to where he is employed now.

I have three thoughts after reading 10 exhaustive pages:

1. The Bake Sale: It's okay to charge white males higher prices as long as they explain in context that the white males had their flour given to them by their rich daddies, and the sugar was a freebie from their country club connections. A little tongue-in-cheek humor but I hope you get the point-their demonstration was one dimensional. They failed to show why different prices might have been necessary in the first place which shows me that they haven't heard one word the Supreme Court said in defense of AA.

2. If you're going to ban affirmative action, then you should ban neptocism, favoritism, sexism, glass ceilings, grandfather clauses, legacy policies and all the other back door ways people "get in" to college.
George W. Bush was not a scholar. It is well known that he got into Yale because his daddy and granddaddy pulled some strings after he was initially denied admission.

Affirmative action isn't perfect, but it's the best tool we have to counteract all the other isms no one seems to want to remember.

Where were the protests of "the system" from white affluent people when they were the primary beneficiary of it? I didn't see George W crying foul after daddy got him into Yale. Why? it was expected. He felt entitled because in his mind "that's the way it's always been done." The good old, it's not what you know, but who you know, rearing its ugly head. Where were the bake sales protesting the special advantages they received purely because they were born into the "right" kind of family?


3. Historically, women and people of color have always had to fight for justice and equality. It was never offered freely, and there was always resistance and bloodshed. If it weren't for the government putting policies in place to force change in behavior, we'd still be dealing with segregated restrooms. With the enforced policies, over time came some change in attitudes.

But those of you opposed to affirmative action are asking women and people of color to let go of a policy put in place to protect us from all the forementioned isms. Are we supposed to "trust" all of a sudden that we will be treated with equality and that mankind will miracuously treat everyone with respect and equality without a public policy in place? I don't have that much faith in mankind.

CO SIGN!!!!