Without this turning into a huge law debate, TRUST ME when I say I am sure about this.

You are right in the respect that IF someone said, 'this crime was commited against me, and I would like to file a complaint' then there would be a violation of the law. With ANY Misdemeanor in the state of California, the offense MUST be commited within the presence of the arresting party.

This means that say the police respond to ANY misdemeanor and it hasn't been committed in their presence, then the victim must sign the arresting complaint and THEY will be the complaintant in the judicial matter. If the police witness something, say you going 100MPH in a 55, then they are the complaintant, representing the city.. however if they only have reasonable suspicion to believe you committed the misdemeanor (it is much different for a felony) then because it is only a misdemeanor they need a victim as the arresting party.

You can lookup case law and the state law (the education code is JUST as enforceable as the penal code) but I 100% guarentee you I am right.

As for hazing.. not only would it be a tough sell in court that there was degredation of the pledges being that they CONTINUED the pledging process for days/weeks/months after the hazing event, but THEY themselves would have to say they were victimized.

Trust me I know a little bit about this. ;)
Casey

Sorry there Casey buddy but you are in the wrong. Just cause they continued pledging does not make it not hazing. Tell that to the Sigma Chi's, the D-Chi's, and the Kappa Sigs on my campus. They have all been kicked off due to hazing violations, where most of the pledges went on to become actives. And if the school rules that it is hazing it doens't matter if they all felt victimized or not. Often times it is a report from someone who felt hazed that gets the ball rolling but that isn't always the case. Sometimes suspicious behaviors get an investigation started.

GeekyPenguin

I never said anything about paddling someone every day. That is pointless and has no real meaning. The point of doing things in pledging should be to teach lessons and have meaning. Alot of the things we do are things that could be considered hazing but because we have meaning and real lessons behind it, they arent. I didnt see anything pointless about DOC's stuff because the pledges needed a wake up call.

I'm sorry, not to be rude, but I'm not going to trust some random person on the internet, who may or may not be the person from FL2. Especially when it comes to the law. I posted the statute because you talked about it, it's only fair to the discussion that the rest of people be able to read it. I also would never trust anyone who would do those kinds of things to people that are supposed to be their friends and brothers. Sorry, that's juts me.

You guys are just damn lucky that none of your pledges (or ex pledges) has sued you. None of you seem to be forward-looking enough to see how a lawsuit could affect you. And the fact that it's all caught on tape doesn't really help your case either. There's hours upon hours of footage that hasn't even aired and could easily be subpoenaed from MTV.

It doesn't matter that penal code is different from criminal code... I wasn't quite sure what you meant by that. I never said one was more enforceable than the other. Criminal code is enforced by the police and the District Atty's office would bring suit. With other laws, someone personally would have to bring suit. That's all that I originally meant by that. And it's not like the group as a whole could be sued, you'd all be individually sued. I'm guessing that DOC isn't operating in a business form, therefore you don't have any of the individual protections that something such as a corporation would have. Hard to explain quickly, but it affects who can be found liable and who can't.

And yes, it's rather convenient for you guys that you got kicked of campus. But that sure as hell doesn't seem like something to be proud of.

Look, you're not going to find many people on this site that agree with you. A few, yes. But the rest of us are disgusted at how you are representing greeks. And it affects all of us as greeks having to deal with these images and convince potential greeks and everyone else that our respective chapters are nothing like yours.

You're not going to convince us that what you're doing is right, because it goes against the very values and ideals that our respective GLOs have taught us.

I just watched the re-run shows tonight. The scavenger hunt, in my opinion, isn't bad. That isn't an exhuasting exercise and it is easy to see if you work together you can bond.

The beach, though - what the heck is that? Jumping up and down and doing push ups on the beach isn't going to be fun because you are doing it with your brothers. And then riding behind them making them hurry to the house? This is bonding?

Bonding would be letting them take their time walking back from the beach together and talk about whatever. When you go and shout at them and make them run and not talk - they don't learn anything about eachother (well maybe besides who can run the fastest).

That beach crap was the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. I wouldn't respect anyone who yelled and screamed at me and made me exhaust my body so I could be a good pledge. I can understand making pledges go through things together to bond - but there is a line where it goes beyond bonding and to just flat out being an asshole.

agreed...and from a management standpoint, if you have a pledge totally off task do you not talk to the kid before you let him drop. from what we saw, it's obvious that there was enough going in his head that perhaps he needed some asssitance.
just mho

Robbie is really the star of this show
 

Robbie is really the star of this show. I hope he makes it.

And I think he could add about 30 pounds.

A little tension, too, about the underwear theft. There are bad brothers, and bad pledges too.

Good episode - makes the SL look weak.

Nate's pretty cute! Although I didn't think the underware thing was that big of a deal, it wasn't necessary... I liked the fact that Lum put his foot down though for the pledges' sake.

I like FL 2. I'm quite entertained. I haven't seen them do anything to these pledges that makes me feel like the pledges should sue DOC. Hazing that's much worse goes on behind fraternity doors on basically every campus around the nation. What's happening here seems minor to me, and they can always quit if they don't like it. Granted, seeing some hazing on tv may be hard for some people to deal with, but we all know it goes on. It goes on to a much higher degree at many fraternities. I would much rather deal with what these pledges are going through than all the gossip, backstabbing and emotional turmoil that the pledges in SL 3 are going through. That seems like much worse hazing to me.

Just because it is not as bad as other chapters out there does not make hazing right.

EXACTLY!!! saying a little hazing isnt as bad as other hazing...thats like saying well this boy beat up this other kid, but didnt demolish him...so id rather be just SIMPLY beat up? what the????

its a lot easier to say you wouldnt mind being in one persons shoes...until you ACTUALLY fill them. i doubt you would last one second if you were TRULY in that position. i know personally, i just wanna say THANK GOODNESS Delta Gamma has a ZERO tolerance for hazing ;)

Can someone please explain to me why it is so terrible to call someone a "duck"? Ducks are cute and cuddly. Who doesn't love a duck?

I love ducks! LOL. :)

I think the "duck" referance is an unfriendly nickname for another fraternity. That whole thing pissed me off. When an active tells you to do something and you have been getting into trouble for not following orders, you finally do what you are told and then you get yelled at. Arg, "Fraternity Life 2: What not to do as a Fraternity"

Tell it Dani. ;)

hehe, I can tell you go to law school :D

you rock.

*another pointless post from Rissa*

I was thinking the same thing...legal minds all think alike!

Geez, I'm just saying, it doesn't seem like it's worth going to court over. Also, fraternities are a little different than sororities. What seems like hazing to us, doesn't seem all that bad to guys. I know that if anyone in my house were getting hazed like that, we'd get them in trouble so quick, but we're girls. Guys get made to do push ups and they feel it builds character. If they don't, then they just quit, but most guys stick it out, cause they don't see the problem with it. If they were getting physically harmed though, that's a completely different issue, and one that I feel is definitely worth fighting against. But that just isn't the case here.

Ok, on a slightly different note, Kevin is a freaking hottie.

That is all.

i definitely agree with you...fraternities definitely differ from sororities when it comes down to hazing. all i am saying...and if it seemed directed towards you it wasnt...i was using "you" in my previous post as a "you" in general...but anyways...all i am saying is its hard to make a statement, unless you have actually been in the position of being hazed. to someone on the outside it may seem to be something so tiny and not offensive...but to the person bein hazed no matter how little the thing was they had to do...it could really make or break them. which i guess is sort of the point...to have them MAKE it stronger and bond together, i dunno...i just honestly dont see the point. i have bonded plenty well with my sisters without being hazed!

Did you watch Camp Jim?
 

I also enjoyed the Camp Jim episode following FL2. It's about some friendly guy who runs a cheerleading camp.

Now, there, is screaming in the little cheerleaders faces, forced exercises (including a strange sit-up left-lift-split combo that looks tough), and threats.

It's originally on at 4:00 daily, I think.

i watch that!!!

I don't know if it's the same there, but the unfriendly nickname of duck was for the fraternity Delta Upsilon. I have seen quite few arguments break out over that one with the clueless pledge being the one to say the name out in public trying to prove himself to his other buddies to show how cool he is. Off topic but did you guys see how narrow Robbie's body was when he had on the grey tee shirt? He looked like he had bound his midsection.

Strange feeling Im going to get lynched...
 

Okay, we all -apparently- agree that hazing is horrible. That it is bad and whatnot. Yet, hazing goes on in nearly every organized group: football, greeks, Military, etc.

Basically, my chapter doesn't haze all that much, according to our definition. Our GHQ's definition includes everything from scavenger hunts to making the pledges participate in Buy A Phi.

My question: If not for some form of hazing, how will fraternities differentiate between the ones who SHOULD be here, and the ones that shouldn't. Im not saying "Kick the shit out of that guy and if he can still stand, he's worthy to join us." I could never do that and then call the guy a brother 8 weeks later.

I AM saying that Pledgeship should be 60% and 40% rough. Hazing nowadays is just another victim of the social predication America is currently going through. Everyone is leaping at the chance to take a PC stance and point fingers. As George Carlin states: "Back in the '60s, you could leave a child in a hot car for an hour while you ran into the store. Nowadays, if I leave my dog in the car for 5 minutes, I'll be lynched on the 6 o'clock news."

Men were built to be tough and to endure a great deal of mental stress. Not to be babied and gently led to manhood. That is one of the reasons we are genetically 20% stronger than females. Im not saying females are weak, btw. As far as the "Sensitive Man of the 21st Century," I dont buy it.

I treat my girlfriend like gold. Im not an asshole. Im not an elitist. Yet, I may or may not have went through my hazing.

I know I may sound like an asshole saying all these, but I believe some hazing should exist in every fraternity. Not the kind where we kick the shit out of you, but the kind in which you are under enormous pressure. The kind which forces you to think under stress, balance your time and bond with your fellow pledge brothers.

So....let the flaming begin.... :-)

haha, thats what these law schools want to do to us!!

:p

Re: Strange feeling Im going to get lynched...
 

Back in the '60s, everybody did hazing - some bad, some really bad - and if something happened the chapter got no-socials probation, maybe no intramurals, for a semester or year. Fraternity alumni were in many prominent positions - on campus and off - and college presidents, who wanted success and a long tenure, left athletics and fraternities alone.

Now, if a hazed pledge is hospitalized or his mommy finds out, or if a former pledge/member/girl friend reports hazing, it will be nationally publicized (do you remember the powderpuff football girls hazing in a Chicago suburb), and your national office and your student affairs office will fight to see which can kick you off campus quickest.

If your "enormous pressurre" and "stress" gets your chapter suspended, the lawyers will go after you and the individual brothers. If hazing is a crime in your state, and it probably is, then student affairs will turn the info over to the state and local police, and you, your individual brothers, your chapter, and your national face real criminal charges, fines, and big-boys jail time.

I urge you to look at the other threads about Fiji at Santa Barbara (a copy of a 29-page lawsuit by a hazee's parents is available at the campus newspaper site), DU at Nebraska, and a lot of others in the Risk Management Section. Go to Google News and search for "hazing", and you'll see the publicity, law suits, police investigations, and jail time college, athletic, and high school hazers are getting. It's scary what happens to individuals who think "they did it to me when I was a pledge (or rookie), and now its my turn ... we all went through it."

You said "Everyone is leaping at the chance to take a PC stance and point fingers." These finger pointers have ALL the power right now. They may be pointing at you.

Probably some GC reader saw your post, and will assume that Phi Delt at Kent State hazes. They'll notify Oxford, and by Monday Oxford's hazing police will probably be at your chapter meeting.

They, and I, want you to have a strong and demanding pledge period, based on the principles in your officer manuals - not on hazing.

If you are hazing, they, and I, want your chapter closed before your actions bring down the Gods of bad publicity upon all of us.

I think you misread what I wrote. Im not saying that we should "haze," Im saying we should haze. The definition of hazing is too broad, and ridiculous. Any mental stress is considered hazing. Scavenger hunts. Etc.

You can think Im the antichrist, I dont frankly care. Phi Delt doesnt haze their pledges, in the sense that most people have. I never had a hand laid on me. I never thought "when Im active, Ill get to do this to them." Every, and I MEAN everything the pledges do, I do with them. Im with them on every mission. I clean with them whenever that have to clean. I attended their New Member Convocation.

The reason? It reminds me of what it was like to be a pledge and how much fun it was. So don't attempt to nail us to a cross of generalization or stereotypes.

"If you are hazing, they, and I, want your chapter closed before your actions bring down the Gods of bad publicity upon all of us."

Thats a pretty ignorant statement. You want our chapter closed? I would never wish that on ANY chapter, of ANY fraternity. That is akeen to calling an african american the n-word. To have our chapter shut down is to shut down every memory, every legacy, every legend of a chapter. Thats pretty fucked up that you'd say something like that, but whatever.

I'll copy/paste my quote from the other thread here because I thought we were starting a new one. ;)

i expected to be hazed when i joined my frat, i woulda been pissed and thought the actives were pussies if they hadnt. I wanted paddleing and pushups, not punch and pie !

"Tell them we'll have punch and pie. "
"We're not going to have punch and pie!"
"But more people will come if they think we have punch and pie."

Sorry. I just couldn't resist... ;)

the question remains...what kind of pie???
one can only theorize on the punch.

Slater's friend Lauren looked like she seriously needed a shower.

Just explain one thing to me....

why did Slater want to hook up with the psycho-chick from "Friends Till The End"?

http://www.angelfire.com/sd2/shannen...d_1997_005.jpg

come to think of it, Sherie looked a teeny bit like Shannen. Maybe Slater needs to step away from the Lifetime Movie Network.

*snores* oh sorry is that episode over? blah blah blah, drama, girls blah. I think its kinda funny how snatch is just always over there hangin out and shit. I'm kinda pissed that there wasnt any good pledging stuff in this episode, but I though psycho bitch was funny, although scarey, very scarey. Poor Lum got stuck =(

That episode was entertaining with Sherie pathetically barging into Slater's room and walking into the house like she owns it. Just when you thought she was gone, she magically reappears! I was also thinking the same thing that we see Snatch more at the house than we do Marty or some of the other guys.

It's interesting how the brothers don't have any strict house rules like Sigma Chi Omega did last season, i.e. drinking in the pledge house and having girls over. They seem less strict in that sense at least.

Dude, that Sherie chick was way weird. I was like why the hell did you come back! You ask one of the other brothers to get your belt for you dude! And then that Lauren chick, seriously have some self respect...."Let's do it right now"....I mean, sure we all need to get some every now and then but you're on national TV and your face isn't blurred out!

What I don't get is why MTV would let them do all that. Can we say HUGE liability issue? All of that underage binge drinking, caught on tape, etc?

One thing that I really don't get is how MTV wouldn't let the girls in SL3 speed, but let's the guys do this sort of thing?

scary sharie & whorin lauren
 

okay...sooo...scarie sharie was just WEIRD...i mean she literally scared me in that episode...can the girl not get the idea that she was bein dissed? and who was she bein dissed for...whorin lauren who was like come with me to the bedroom and lets do it now...GEEEEZZZZZ. but then once i saw slater read the letter that lauren wrote sayin she liked someone else and didnt want a relationship with him...well first i thought...what is this middle school where ya break someones heart in a letter? ...but then i immediately thought of slater...as bein JIM...from american pie...when he got used by the chick hah.

slater said somethin earlier in the episode about the only reason girls are over all the time are because of him...thing is...they are all either ugly, drama filled, or just SCARY...very very SCARY heh. they need to make some rules about girls not bein allowed over...for their own sake...heh!

Yea, but i think slater screwed up there though... cause shen psycho woman went into the boom boom room and he was layin down with lauren, i didnt see her complaining. 1 word threesome, cmon slater use your brain !

Quote:

Originally posted by GeorginaDG63

I totally agree--those girls are not attractive at all! I laughed when Robbie was like, yeah there all these beautiful girls always at the house. Riiiiiiight.

I liked how Slater called out Robbie because he was wrong, and then he was able to apologize to Robbie afterward.