One of the kids I'm rushing has actaully asked me about hazing, and he's interested to see how much of a constitution he has to take it. I've seen people quit because they were not hazed hard enough.

Yes, be proud that you're recruiting someone who has so little respect for themselves they will allow you take the easy way out by denegrating them and treating them poorly in an effort to gain your acceptance.

Sorry, that was pretty harsh, but hazing is too easy. There are some great ways to accomplish team building and bonding without hazing. Yes, they take more planning and involvement by the whole chapter to execute, but it can be done. It's unfortunate that there are still chapters out there that think putting new members down is the only way to learn to respect one another and build a bond. You have to give respect to get respect.

If it were me, I would be looking for the person that already knows how to respect others and build positive bonds with people because it ensures a stronger brother/sisterhood for the future...

or did they leave due to the hazing? perhaps they are smarter than you believe.

I've said this before on GC, but I firmly believe that, for many if not most guys, at least, hazing it about much more and goes to something much deeper than "team building and bonding."

Don't get wrong -- to avoid any confusion, I think hazing is wrong and I support my fraternity's policies on hazing.

But I think any "alternative" to hazing may be less than successful if it doesn't meet what I would call the primal need to prove one's self by ordeal -- the same primal urge that symbolically underlies many, many fraternal and masonic-type initiation rituals.

Just my $0.02.

This was a blog post by one of the creators of Phiredup.com. Just thought I'd throw it on here.

What HURTS Recruitment Results?
by: Matt Mattson

You want recruitment results, right? What do you think is one of the major concerns/fears of potential new members? Yep, you guessed it… they don’t want to get hazed. They assume that joining a fraternity or sorority requires at least a week, if not a full semester, of humiliation, hard work, embarrassment, alcohol abuse, illegalities, and other things that they’re not interested in.

So, they don’t join.

I’m not talking about a few people on your campus that aren’t joining because of a fear of hazing. I’m suggesting that on most of your campuses there is about 80-90% of the campus that isn’t Greek. I’m suggesting that most of them are smarter than to put themselves in a position where hazing MIGHT happen.

You’re saying, “our chapter is different, we don’t haze.” Great! It is important to understand however, that your potential members don’t know that. And they aren’t joining because other chapters on your campus, in your inter/national organization, around your state, and around the country DO HAZE. They haze and you pay the price — the vast majority of your campus is afraid of what you MIGHT do to them.

Are you angry yet? You should be. I know I am. I know that many of you don’t haze, would never allow yourself to be hazed, and think that chapters that do haze are just stupid — never mind the “it’s against our values” stuff. You know, just like I do that they’re missing out on the best guys on campus (who avoid them altogether), and they lose many of their best members during their new member period (because they’re smart enough to get out during pledging).

Anytime I think or talk about hazing a couple of memories come up for me…

The first is a new member education exercise I did when I pledged to Alpha Sigma Phi Fraternity at Grand Valley State University back in 1996. One day during our new member ed meeting, the pledge educator took the whole 12-man class outside onto the lawn of the house. He put us in a circle and did a version of the “crossing the line” exercise.

During that exercise members were asked to step forward if they could relate to a statement. The statements started with benign things like, “I am a college student,” or “I am a republican.” As the statements continued, they became more and more challenging and personal, like “I have been angry at someone in this circle,” or “I’ve cheated in school before.” By the time we got toward the end of the exercise, the statements were very personal and very revealing. They included statements like:

“I have lost a loved one recently” (several of my brothers stepped forward)

“I have done hard drugs” (a couple of my brothers stepped forward)

“I have been very depressed” (a couple of my brothers stepped forward)

“I have been abused” (several of my brothers stepped forward)

“I have considered or attempted suicide” (3 of my pledge brother stepped forward)

“I have been sexually abused” (2 of my pledge brothers stepped forward)

“I have been raped…” (one of my pledge brothers stepped forward)

Very few experiences in my life have given me as much insight into the reality that all of us — even the ones you least expect — have had experiences in our life that have hurt deeply. If I am to be their brothers, and if I am to educate my interfraternal brothers and sisters to be the best members they can be — then I can not stand for us hurting one another (even if it is based on a joke or some “bonding” experience). Because even a light-hearted, seemingly harmless prank can bring back the pain of those past experiences and losses.

I can’t imagine how painful it would be for my pledge brothers (especially those that had been abused, sexually molested, suicidal, and/or recently grieving a lost loved one) to have been paddled, forced into dark rooms or blindfolds, forced to drink, to have had demeaning things shouted at them, etc.

New members join us often in one of the most vulnerable times in their lives. They have moved away from their friends and families, they are trying to establish their own personal identity, and they are vulnerable. We can’t abuse that. We have to nurture our brothers and sisters especially during their first few months as a member. That is what true brotherhood and sisterhood is.

The other memory that arises for me comes from when I was the president of my chapter. After one of our Pledge Ceremonies (an initial ritual for new members) in which the candidates were blindfolded, I had one of the new members come to my room at about 2 a.m. in tears. Now, I wasn’t used to having another guy come talk to me crying, so I was a little freaked out. He explained to me that he suffered from severe anxiety disorder, and the fact that we drove him around in a car for 30 minutes blindfolded (which we thought was harmless) was deathly terrifying for him.

Two thoughts come out of this scenario for me. First, it amazes me that he let us do that to him. But that just confirms how vulnerable we are when we’re new members. Secondly, I now do some work in the field of mental health and better understand the level of terror that he must have been experiencing. I also know that somewhere around 1 in 5 of us (yes, your chapter too) live with a serious mental illness (and you hardly ever know who we are). A good brother/sister wouldn’t kick their members while they’re down, and they certainly wouldn’t terrorize them on purpose.

Am I saying that “blindfolds are hazing.” No. I’m saying we need to be aware of the reality of what our brothers and sisters have gone through or are going through, and be sensitive to that. When they’re new members, often they’re afraid to tell you about these things, so we have to create environments that are extra safe for them — so that they feel safe and want to stick around.

My recommendation is to assume that somewhere in your new member class there is a person who has been abused, who has a mental illness, who has an eating disorder, who is an alcoholic, who can’t read, who was molested, or… who is suicidal right now. Build a new member education program based on those assumptions — because they’re probably TRUE.

Bottom line: If we’re helping you revolutionize your chapter by using Dynamic Recruitment to recruit a higher quantity of higher quality members, don’t haze them because if they really are higher quality members, they’ll quit, and all of our/your hard work will have been wasted.

Hazing hurts. It hurts recruitment results. It hurts people.

According to the NHPW website, since 1970 at least one person has died from a hazing related event each year. Let’s stop that.

One person can make the difference. Your opportunity is now here.

^^^^^wow. very interesting and thought provoking. perhaps thread moderator should stick this to the top of section.

This is perhaps the most powerful statement I have read regarding hazing. With proper credit to the author, I agree that this should be stickied.

I understand what you're saying--and I probably don't get it because I am missing certain parts. But we're talking about joining a fraternity here, and what, in that, includes the need to prove your primal manhood? Where, in any fraternity's values, does it say that we value being primal? I see things about being a gentleman and respecting each other, but I don't recall anything about being Neanderthal-like.

I am being somewhat facetious but it's only to prove the point that sometimes the values we as members claim don't line up with the excuses to haze.

I think you are missing the point (and certain parts :D).

First, primal doesn't mean Neanderthal. It means fundamental or deep-seated -- way down in and integral to our psychological make-up.

Second, because our culture doesn't offer standard "initiation rites" that mark the transition from childhood to adulthood for men (not sure it does for women either), a vacuum is created that groups like fraternities step in to fill.

Third, I think most fraternities, in some way or another, say they are about making better men -- not just gentlemen, but better men. So there is built into the fraternal experience the idea of being the best man you can be. And in some ways on a deep psychological level, being the best man you can be requires proving yourself -- to yourself and to those whom you hope to have accept you as a peer. There is more than a grammatical difference in "joining" a fraternity, as you put it, and "being accepted" into a fraternity.

I'll readily agree that doesn't necessarily line up with excuses to haze. I'll also agree that there is hazing and then there is hazing. My point is, though, that I think hazing started because of this inborn need to prove one's self through some kind of ordeal. We can never successfully get rid of hazing unless we understand the psychology that underlies it and find other, more appropriate, ways to meet that need.

So... in order for you to "be accepted" into a fraternity you have to prove yourself by drinking too much, bowing down to brothers, and being humiliated?

That makes sense.

And what are these "initiation rites" you speak of? I didn't realize I had to be physically and emotionally harassed in order to grow up.

Did I say anything about drinking too much, bowing down to brothers, being humiliated or being physically and emotionally harassed? No. (Well, actually I did when I said just a few posts back that I think hazing is wrong and that I support my fraternity's policies on hazing.)

You're reading things into what I said that aren't there.

Read the post to which I linked a few posts back in this thread and you'll see the kind of thing I'm talking about.

As for the initiation rites, take an anthropology class or read up on the Greek mysteries. Or you might read up on vision quests. ;)

(Actually, my fraternity's manual for probationary members has a very good section on ritual and initiation rites/rites of passage. I don't have my copy handy, but when my copy and I are in the same place, I'll take a look at it and see if there's anything worth posting here.)

Well stated. :) But unfortunately, the average college male doesn't think this way.... still, a good discussion point on what it will take to deal with hazing.

Ok, I'm a DU like Mystic, and seriously, there is a reason that Nationally DU sucks...but there is also a reason why my chapter doesn't, we have a pedgeship that is difficult. Every fraternity has rules agaisnt hazing that is broken in some form or another. Hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make sense.

LPIdelta, I don't care what you think. It does work, get over it.

Same goes for you AST.

I'm going to refer to about 10 posts ago, when I put up that long blog entry. Read it if you haven't already, and read it again if you have. You don't know you you're recruiting. You meet people, you make small talk with them, you have a couple weeks (if that) to get to know them, and then you start hazing them. You don't know intimate details about their lives, you don't truly know what kind of person they are, and you don't know if even the smallest thing you do can affect them.

People who support hazing say that if a person can't handle the pressure and hard work, then they're not worth being in the fraternity/sorority. That's kind of sad. What you're essentially saying, is that if Joe Schmoe received a bid, started your new member program, even if he has impressive grades, is on the baseball team, is involved with student government, and volunteers twice a week at a soup kitchen, you won't think twice about turning him away from your organization because he doesn't want to be hazed and "can't handle it"?

Does that make sense?

If you think your organization "sucks" then I am sure they wouldn't mind if you disaffiliated. And I am sure your blantant disregard for hazing policies and your willingness to jeopardize the welfare of the entire organization by your actions is another reason your "suck"y brothers wouldn't mind.

And thank you for proving the point that hazing doesn't work. You didn't join a chapter--you joined an entire organization. It will only take one mega lawsuit because someone died or was injured to bring the entire organization down. A mature adult recognizes this fact and adjusts their actions accordingly. If your pledgeship worked as well as you say it did, you would have learned to think of your organization and the welfare of your brothers first, and your own selfish need to make others prove themselves would not be part of the picture. Isn't that what it's all about--brotherhood first?

at post 133 we get to the point where just about every thread in rm gets to. hazing is hazing is hazing. good vs evil. what is the real point of it and what is the real definition of it.

however the line of hazing for hazing sake is stupid, but doing it for a reason does make {some} sense sure does seem to be a rather circular and self serving argument.

jm-get over it yourself. and perhaps read some of the postings not only here, as suggested, but elsewhere in rm thread. from my own observations, both here and personally, hazing can start out rather innocently, simple and mild with good intent and intentions. but it seems as if all too many times, all too often there is no one watching the watchers. and matters hit that rather slippery slope downward. and then it becomes a routine, and regimen. with reasons, rationals, and excuses. and excesses. and cover-ups. however, this is only my point of view. which, of course, is based on my observations and experiences. i know, all too well, that others have experienced life differently and see this issue differently and in a different light.

Thanks, NA! ;)

As we've discussed on GC before, I think this gets to the real crux of the issue and to why general hazing discussions so often go nowhere. There is no agreed upon definition of hazing. We have some people who define hazing as things like forced consumption of large amounts of alcohol but not, say, being required to drive for brothers, We have others who define hazing as anything that distinguishes between pledges/new members and initiated members, including forbidding new members from wearing letters. And then we have the the full spectrum in between, including those who distinguish between "permissible" hazing and "impermissible" hazing.

It doesn't help for the purposes of this kind of discussion to say "look at legal definitions" or school/GLO policies -- they're all over the map, too.

As a result, we end up talking past each other.

first of all....this biggest problem with hazing is that the word hazing....is defined so loosely......

what could be considered hazing on a strict campus could be overlooked completely on another.....


I mean..where can you really draw that line?

I would argue that the line is crossed when personal safety is at stake.....to a fairly high degree....

and even with that as the definition there is so much leeway.....

But I am a firm believer that people do have a choice in there actions.....and if they start to haze....no one is stopping you from leaving?

nope

no one knows what your sayin crazy...because you aren't speaking english

your speaking some kind of ghetto gibberish there dude

At least he knows how to properly use a period.

Your (possessive) is not the same as You're (You Are).

I would have to disagree with that statement. Hazing can take many forms. Sure you have the physical which you seem to be referencing, but you also have sexual, emotional and mental abuse. Hazing is anything that can cause ANY harm to a person. Any harm at all, but you seem to be saying that only when great physical harm is possible. I don't understand that thinking as the other kinds could be just as damaging if not more so.

To put it basically it is stupid and against the law!:rolleyes:

So, when a chapter is closed as so many are because of Hazing which is against the law of many states and HQs then guess what, it must be wrong!

If some are not aware of this, how stupid does this make them?:rolleyes:

Screw up, get caught, and get booted off of school and out of GLO!

Who is smart now?:o

Meaningless Hazing is completely pointless, but not speaking from experience from the fraternity, but speaking from hazing done during my high school sports team, there is a point..........and please...define hazing...

because honestly.....hazing is just a word that gets thrown around...without a proper definition.


hazing is illegal because people aren't being responsible about it..

of course if you make someone drink an abundance of water...something bad could happen, but at the same time there are other things, that take the safety of the pledges into consideration.

And as I have stated before, no one is forcing ANYONE to do ANYTHING....if they so choose to stay and not walk out...then that is their decision.

I am not saying I am for nor against it...but i don't believe in the criminalization of it.

I will agree that mental(which is emotional) and sexual(which is a possibility i didn't take into consideration when writing my previous post) could be just as damaging.


The mental "damage" is ..quite literally all in your head.
The only time i could see that as permanent damage to a person is if you don't complete the pledge process....if you have...and your brothers except you as a brother...you realize WHY the pledge process is what it is

So "mental damage" is ok as long as you are initiated and the "reasons" are explained to you?

I think that your overall argument is weak and you should probably just give up.

PS - it's ACCEPT, not except.

You're right. The mental damage IS in your head. That's why it's called MENTAL damage.

And permanent damage or not, it is hurting someone. You'd be surprised at how many people that can affect. Just because it didn't hurt you doesn't mean it isn't hurting someone else. And a lot of people won't say anything. And do you want to know why? Because you're guys, and you're taught not to show any emotion, and you're afraid to share feelings with other guys.

But I guarantee that there are guys, probably in your fraternity, who have been hurt by hazing. Because I've seen it happen, and I've had guys come to me to talk about it. And while they don't tell me exactly what is involved in the program, they are clearly upset about it, whether they get into the fraternity or not.

MysticCat's statements are right on target. This is the real argument at the heart of the issue. :cool:
(BUMPing this post for emphasis before it got lost in the proverbial "shuffle")...

Mental damage is a joke.....
That is all their is too it. It is a joke.
The only people who are against the hazing are the ones that can't take it.
Hazing has been around as long as Collegiate Greeks, and it isn't going anywhere.
The fact that prissy boys can't cut it as a pledge, and resort to turning a fraternity in is nothing more than sad.
You want to build brotherly bonds, you have to sacrifice something.

Pledging isn't supposed to be easy......
It is supposed to be challenging, mentally and physically.

In all honesty....even a chapter who meaninglessly hazes, just because is still more than likely does less damage to a pledge, both physically and mentally) than what a new recruit from the army gets going through basic.

So, to wrap my little rant up, I will leave you with a quote...from ..fight club...

"It is not until we have lost everything, that we are truly free to do anything."

First of all, you're comparing apples to oranges.

You say that people go through this in the Army. But that is EXPECTED. The reason they go through physical training is so that they can be physically prepared to KILL PEOPLE and DEFEND THEIR COUNTRY. Not so that they can sit in chapter meetings and participate in philanthropies.

And if you seriously think that the physical training in the Army (which in turn results in emotional training), doesn't truly effect soldiers mentally in a negative way, then you obviously don't know anyone who has served their country.

And not to sound mean or anything, but aren't you the one who posted the thread a little while back asking for recruitment advice because your membership is down to 3 people?

Maybe you should re-evaluate what you're doing to your "pledges", or whatever you choose to call them, before you attempt to bring in a ton of new people.

Your right, there have been guys who have been "hurt" by hazing.
That is the point.....to break them down...to make them realize its all in their head. They learn to trust their pledge brothers and there potential brothers...and in the end it all makes sense...there is a point to it all.
And, as i have previously stated, No one is forcing them to be there. Nor is anyone forcing them to do anything.


[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Devin/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot.jpg[/IMG]However, you are wrong about the guys not sharing. That is what so many people fail to realize. They assume that guys won't share anything. I have had meeting where my pledge brother broke down in tears, and thats the point.......to break them..and then rebuild them. That is the point in hazing, and that is something that I honestly don't expect anyone who hasn't been through it to understand.


But, until I hear it from someone who has been hazed, and doesn't see the greater good in it.....i refuse to believe that hazing(as long as there is a meaning behind it) is a negative thing. In fact, to be 100 percent honest, I don't believe that someone who hasn't been through it, really has the right to even talk about it as if they know anything about it.

In my opinion, people who haven't gone through a process with hazing, but are trying to talk about how harmful it is, don't have a clue.

I mean, can someone who has never played golf in their life accurately help you correct your golf swing?...more than likely not so much.

can someone who has never been stabbed with a knife..accurately describe the pain of being stabbed with one?

No..the person has not gone through it, and therefor has no real insight to the good, nor the evil of hazing

Um, I've never been stabbed with a knife, but I can tell you that it isn't a good thing.

Just like I haven't been hazed, but I can tell you that's not a good thing either.

And please, don't tell me what I do and don't know, because I have seen some people seriously upset and physically screwed up because of what was done to them. And you can sit here and say "they couldn't take it" all you want, but that says to me that you just don't care. And that's sad.

And I'm not going to continue to argue with you, because you refuse to address the things that I say (the Army analogy, your chapter struggling with recruitment) simply so that you can get your point across.

So I'm done.

End of story.

OK, i will start with the stabbing comment.

No, you haven't been stabbed and you tell me it is a bad thing to be stabbed, but this is not based on experiences...its based on what you have heard.....

as far as hazing goes..it is an assumption that you have made in your head, a generalization if you will, that all hazing is bad. This is not based on life experience, but rather it is based on what others have told you.

Now, I am not arguing that ALL hazing is good, by any means. But there is a time and place where it is appropriate, and it is for the greater good of the organization.

As I said, being as you haven't experienced it first hand, i don't expect you to understand.

As far as people who complaining not being able to "cut it", i never said anything like that.

I would never dream of forcing a pledge to do something they didn't want to do, nor would i do something to put a pledges life or safety at risk.

As far as the army thing goes, once again, unless you have experienced the boot camp first hand, you have no...insight, and therefor your opinion on this is rather flawed. Thus, your argument on this is rather week.

You bash hazing because of what you have heard, not what you have experienced.

It just makes me laugh that you say that because I haven’t experienced it, I don’t understand. I understand plenty of what I haven’t experienced. And if you’re telling me that people ONLY learn through experience, then you’re sadly mistaken. Because I can tell you that to get stabbed is bad, I can tell you that if you jump out of an airplane, you will fall very quickly to the ground, and I can tell you that if you taunt a barracuda, there’s a pretty good chance he’ll bite your sorry ass. But I’ve never done any of those things.

You talk to me as if I have never heard a story about what other chapters do for hazing. I have heard first hand what some people do. And for some, running around campus, being covered in eggs, doing 500 push-ups, doing laundry for your big, and being otherwise belittled by the people who are supposed to be your “brothers”, etc., etc., etc., isn’t something that they’re willing to do to be part of an organization. And personally, I commend them for it.

Because I KNOW I wouldn’t want that done to me. And that’s not me being naïve because I haven’t experienced it. That’s not me not being able to handle it. That’s me making a personal choice based on the fact that I know those things suck. And I don’t have to prove myself to anyone by having them embarrass me and do things that may scar me emotionally.

I don’t haze anyone because I don’t pretend to know anyone. I don’t pretend to think that everyone is mentally healthy. Because THAT would be naïve. And I don’t pretend that nothing happens to anyone, ever.

Example: The mother of one of my sisters died last semester. This girl is a little more emotional than others in general, so when this happened, it took her a long time to even be able to come around the chapter because everyone was having a good time. SHE HAD A HARD TIME ENJOYING HERSELF because she almost thought she shouldn’t be happy. A lot of people do that when they lose a loved one, and if that happened to one of your pledges and you weren’t having fun, but instead were harassing him, I guarantee there’s a pretty good chance you could permanently push him away.

The only advice I can give you is not to assume that everyone is as “perfect” as you are. Everyone has their own issues to deal with, and everyone has pasts that you know nothing about. So to assume that you are above those who don’t want to be humiliated is rather pathetic in my opinion.

^^^ Why are you arguing with an idiot? If you really need to get it out of your system, you'd have more luck with a brick wall.

Some posters really are best ignored. ;)

Amen.

That viewpoint may very well be why his small town fraternity is in need of help.

Yes, but I enjoy looking intelligent :)

And yes, I just found that. It was him. I even commented on that post to try and help him. haha

Arguing with a brick wall doesn't make you look intelligent. ;)