i have never been on the yahoo group, didn't even know we had one until reading your post. i will have to go check that out. but in answer to your question, that wasn't me.

also please understand that the things said on the mtv board are usually within a context of my actions, gestures, general appearance, what i eat, skin tone, and basically everything about me being torn to shreds. it is hard to be consistently kind in response to such things, especially when it is the sisters of sigma who are usually doing the bashing from the safety of screen names. i know i have come off a bit harsh on some of the threads, but look at the things that are being said in the first place, about myself and my friends.

Thank you for responding, I have to admit that these things are what have been bothering me the most.

If you like I will send you a private message with the text that was said in your name from this chat, it got really nasty towares Candace & Amanda, and these girls thought they were talking to you.

Also regarding the MTV board, I can see how rude some people are, and I also admit that I look specifically for the posts by the pledges & sisters. It just bugged me to see personal stuff being said in that context, and what can be taking as instigating. But after what you said here, I do give you the benefit of the doubt and I'll have more of an open mind towards it in the future.

Mara, thanks for giving us the whole story when you really didn't have to. I actually COMPLETELY understand what you are saying about how when the Sigmas watch the show they are gonna see exactly what was said and done by Candace et al. I would think it would be far more difficult inside that organization after the show has aired. My question is, did this experience sour you to the Greek system as a whole? Or have you just chalked it up to an isolated incident? Also I didn't really feel that you followed Jordan. Can you tell us how her speech was set up? It seemed very spontaneous, and like she gave the speech just because you did. One last question...do you still have contact with ANY of the pledges or members from the show? Thanks!

Mara....
 

I just sent you a private message with the info

Crossing
 

"Crossing" is simply a synonym for initiating. It's roots lie in the
old cliche about "crossing the burning sands" which is a euphemistic
way to refer to old-fashioned hazing practices. Usage of the term is
most often associated with the NPHC organziations, especially the ones
that have explicit references to Egyptian mythology in their rituals.

Thanks for the info on the term "crossing" Richard. It's quite interesting to know!

Christin

I just want to apologize for my previous post. I'm not going to delete it because it's already "out there" and responded to. My sarcastic tone certainly wasn't necessary. I was simply surprised to see a GC member advocating a tougher new member period when many of the earlier threads had almost practically accused the SAEPis of hazing.

I personally believe that in general the things that the NPC, NPHC and NIC and individual chapters are trying to abolish in the name of "hazing is bad," really are bad. There are Greeks, I realize, who disagree, and I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. But in our litigous society, the anti-hazing wave is the wave of the future, I suspect. It's not so much political correctness as it is a desire not to have our rears sued off.

......I agree (with FuzzyAlum)! Political correctness and fear of liability is one thing (ok, two), but the main thing is just plain ol' right vs. wrong. What gives one person in a GLO the right to think that they have the right to be "superior" to another? I've been calling it the "ladder" mentality.

"Climb the ladder just like I did; pay your dues just like I did; it was done to me, so you should go through it too" and on and on and on.........."

It just shouldn't be happening in today's day and age. Whether it's a "do to others as you would have them do to you" thing or anything along those lines, hazing just doesn't have a place--or shouldn't--in our GLOs today. Bottom line is respect. It needs to be earned, but the best way to earn it is to give it!

~End Soapbox~

Iris

Re: Crossing
 

Just FYI

Crossing and Intiation are not synonymous with most NPHC orgs. it ia a rite of passage but they are seperate in nature and practice. When and NPHC Org uses the Phrase..."crossing", You are correct it has to do with "Crossing the Burning Sands" or "Crossing the Sands" but the phrase is not an "old Cliche" but a common practice/rite of passage.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to disrespect anyone's rituals. Way back when
I was still in college I did a report on "rites of passage" for a
Philosophy class and in the various books I used for my research the
phrase "crossing the burning sands" shows up in a lot of different
contexts both inside and outside the world of GLO's, and it goes back
into the early 20th century and perhaps earlier than that (I mean it
was used by other organizations, fellowships, and secret societies, not
just college fraternities and sororities). But this is a whole
different topic than what this thread is about.

Thanks for putting in the correction.

Re: Re: Crossing
 

What exactly is the difference between crossing and initiation? I thought that both terms referred to the point where you become a full member... "initiation" typically used for WGLOs and "crossing" for BGLOs. :confused:

If the answer to my question is of a secret nature, just say so...

This argument about tougher pledging policies goes straight to the heart of what is tearing apart some of the best and brightest.

I won't go into details but here's my opinion: If you want interested members who fully understand the history and significance of your organization and can work succesfully together as a whole group, exhibiting selfless sisterly traits, then I don't see how you can be against a REAL pledge process.

Even though i hate to talk about old things and get off the subject, the reason why the association members aren't allowed to drink is because they wear pins with our letters on it. Since they wear the pins all the time, they can't drink through out their process. NO MEMBER, active and alumna, is allowed to drink with their letters on or even be around people who are drinking in public wearing our letters. So when you wear our letters, you don't drink.

Yes, I understand this. And the same goes in Kappa. No drinking in letters. But our new members are not required to wear their pins or letters all the time. Nor are actives, nor are alumnae.

Re: Re: Re: Crossing
 

I think it is a generalization that the terms are used differently - the specific acts of crossing and initiation are secret but generally crossing precedes initiation. They may seem to mean the same thing to some people because people generally refer to their crossing or initiation in terms of a season: fall 69 or spring 82, etc. and the two rituals will probably occur in the same season so to the outsider it sounds like the same thing.

I couldn't agree with this more. There is a big difference between pledging and hazing. Our pledges better know who James Holland is. Thats important. They will never be touched with a paddle or forced to drink, but they better know damn well the history of our fraternity, what the helping hand means, the greek alphabet, our creeed, etc. Otherwise I have no problem with black balling everyone. I would rather have 20 people in a chapter who are all very dedicated to the ideals than 45 people where only 20 people care. We don't need extra dead weight numbers just to make people happy that there are a lot of us. There is strength in numbers, true, but a chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

Mara-
I have enjoyed reading your posts & think you really have your head on straight. I have a couple of burning questions-which may have been addressed elsewhere-if so, feel free to ignore.

Do you have any regrets about this experience (besides the obvious re. MTV twisting and mangling reality)?

and

If you had it to do over again (or even now), would you consider pledging another organization--specifically a national organization? I ask this b/c from my observation, you would be a real asset to any sisterhood (faults & all!!! We all have them!), and I think your depledging was a real loss to the Greek world.

Just curious!

I hate to go against the grain here - but in every interview I have seen with the pledges and the sisters - they said everything was pretty much portrayed realistically. The only things they didnt show on camera was the girls studying and doing community service...which why would anyone watch a show where the main storyline is someone reading a book or going to class. MTV didnt make some of these girls act the way they did - as you said people make mistakes but shouldnt blame everything on the network that was invited by Sigma to come in.

I work in the television business and if they hadnt shown what they did - there wouldnt be like a million threads about this show.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Crossing
 

Maybe this is another twist thrown in. I have heard brothers in my own fraternity as well as in some NIC fraternities (Sigma Nu, for example) use the term "crossing over" as a synonym for initiation. E.g., a newly-initiated brother might be told "Congraultions on crossing over."

FWIW.

FYI:

Making pledges wear pins at all times is hazing if the sisters do not have to do it, too.

Jen

Good lord - what isnt hazing? Isnt part of the pledge process to do things that lead up to being a sister? Of course you are going to be doing things that the active sisters arent doing - like wearing a pledge pin or taking new member classes or not being able to wear letters yet. Hazing, in the simple form, is doing anything that embarrasses you, brings physical harm to you etc - wearing a pin or doing pledge events is none of those

hm, regrets...well i don't know. i don't think i have any. and before all of you go crazy on me for saying that let me just say, that what was shown was me. the person i was before and during this experience is what is shown, and i do not regret being me. i made choices, and some might not have been the most agreeable choices, but in the end everything worked out for the best.

i used the term crossing because a good friend of mine is in a pre-med sorority and that is what she calls it. so it just kinda stuck in my mind. i think it sounds a little nicer than "initiated" which for whatever reason has some weird conotations in my mind. i don't know why.

as far as joining another sorority...i just don't know. you know, when i was a freshman i was on the gymnastics team and it was just like a sorority. rituals and bonds and sisterhood. so i didn't feel like i needed to pledge. i think that without that, maybe a national sorority would have been good for me! but sigma was and is just not for me. if i were younger, i don't know if i would pledge again. as i am really really old to be pledging in the first place, i won't do it again in the fall.

i am not bitter towards all sororities or greeks or anything like that. i think many of these organizations obviously benefit their members. all of my roommates the whole time in college have been sorority members. i think that for a lot of people there is a great benefit, it's social, it's community based, it's sincere and wonderful. i think having one bad experience can't turn you against everyone or everything. i am a little bitter about what happened because i was denied a chance based on who i became friends with, which is really unfair. but i don't hold this against all other groups.

Like I said previously, is there anything that's not considered hazing these days?

Like I said previously, is there anything that's not considered hazing these days?

The easy response is "Not really."

NPC has tried to move away from making new members earn their initiation. Of course there is and should be a period of learning about the fraternity before initiation. However, if a woman is given a bid, then she is deemed worthy of initiation. Anything else is hazing. It's that simple.

No one said wearing a pin was hazing, but making someone wear a pin at all times and then forbidding legal activities (that the rest of the chapter is free to participate in) is. Look at it this way: say a school says all freshmen must live in XYZ dorm. Sounds innocuous, right? The freshmen move into XYZ to find that there is a 9:00 curfew strictly enforced in that dorm, but not in any other dorm. I don't think anyone would find that fair.

Pledge activities should be fun, educational or both...unless you are pledging a group who abstains from alcohol as part of their bylaws, forbidding of-age pledges to drink fits neither of those categories.

Volgirl -

Because hazing has gone so out of control, many schools and national GLOs are counting anything that pledges MUST do that members do not is hazing. Making pledges wear pins is one of them. I know of fraternities that make their pledges wear their pins on their underwear when drinking. You don't think that's hazing?

Another example: we wanted to do a big sister hunt around campus, but we were told it was hazing. Why? Because the sisters didn't have to do it. At some chapters, the sisters were sending pledges into the woods during the winter on this "big sister hunt." That's hazing.

Some chapters might not take it too far, but some do, so these controls need to be there. Girls shouldn't have to 'earn' their sisterhood. That's ridiculous.

Jen

I forgot to add that, technically, forbidding new members to wear letters is also hazing.

This is not just directed at you BUT I think the Term HAZING is being taken WAY to far. Pledges for BGLO's are not even ALLOWED to wear the letters of the organizations. They have their own Pin that they are required to wear 24 hours a day 7 days a week....AND ARE PROUD to have on.

This is a whole nother discussion I realize...But why dont everyone just have sign up sheets and initiation all in the same hour.

By this definition, AEPhi, Theta, and Pi Phi all routinely haze. :rolleyes: This is taking things too far. New members are also forbidden to wear the badge worn by sisters. Is that hazing, too?

(I'm not trying to attack you, Jen, I'm just pointing out that some of the "anti-hazing" rules are being taken to extremes.)

Hahaha exactly!

I sure wouldnt want some who has just accepted a bid to wear my letters without even knowing what they mean. Sure there is a difference between wearing a pledge pin and wearing a pin on your underwear (which as you said was a fraternity) - and yes it was said that wearing a pin was hazing.

Are these things hazing too:
--sisters wearing badges but not letting pledges?
--pledges having to go to new member education classes?
--taking part in a pledge service project? (the sisters dont have to!)

Pi Phi Letters
 

Pi Phi does not forbid new members from wearing letters. In fact, parent's clothing and our mother's pin has our letters on them.

Individual chapters may discourage NM's from wearing letters until they initiate and come to learn the importance of them and I agree that this could be considered hazing under the definitions of "No members, no new members".

WRT new member education, if it's a requirement for initiation under the statutes of a GLO, then I would guess that the definition of hazing can't apply...

UCLAgirl, don't worry. You won't be denied initiation based on who your friends are. The way SL was set up, with six pledges in the house, isolated them from the rest of the pledges and the sisters. Everybody was put on the defensive.

The reason I point this out is because some chapters use such things as ways of hazing -- and do we make special cases for "good chapters?" I'm sure there are a lot of chapters who look good on paper but haze like crazy.

I am very against any form of hazing because I have seen it happen to someone I know and love, and she accepted it and that she was also a lower person because she was a pledge. Any hazing is bull s***, even making pledges wearing pins 24 hours a day.

Jen

Sorry if i'm pissy, but I'm a very tired gal!

dont apologize jen - thats the great thing about a bulletin board - everyone can have voice their opinions - and everyone can learn from each other :)

I said I wasn't going to say anything, BUT it has come obvious that some people are not realizing some things.

The definition of term "hazing" is relative to your organization. Things that are defined as hazing by (examples only) Phi Mu, Alpha Sigma Kappa, or Delta Delta Delta MAY NOT be hazing to Kappa Kappa Gamma, Delta Sigma Theta or Alpha Chi Omega and vice versa. So for one to come on any message board, read a brief snippit of what one person describes as part of their pledge/new member/associate member/whatever your organization calls it process and admonish it as "hazing" is ignorant at best. It is ignorant of the FACT that not every organization does everything the same way as you & those in your little bubble do. Yes, there are somethings that are OBVIOUSLY hazing. But for the LIFE of me, I CANNOT understand what part of wearing a pin during a pledge process is hazing. :confused:

Re: Pi Phi Letters
 

Oops... I know there are at least 3 NPC sororities that forbid new members from wearing letters. I know AEPhi and Theta are two of them, and I thought Pi Phi was the other... sorry <sheepish grin>

I wasn't allowed to wear my letters until I was initiated. At my campus, Chi Omega pledges weren't allowed to, either. We didn't have AEPi or Theta.

And aren't anti-hazing policies set by the NPC, and not separately by each organization in it?

Another interesting point is that hazing doesn't just apply to new members... anything that makes anyone uncomfortable can be considered hazing (not just in my org. but by state law). This means that activities planned for graduating seniors or big sisters could be considered hazing.

HELL...LIFE is one big pledge process with continious HAZING everyday!

Joining the military is hazing.

Working in Corporate America is Hazing

What my founders endured to even participate in their first public Service Project...Was hazing


If you dont want anyone to tell you what to wear on a given day...More power to you. Pledge the organization that will allow you to do that. In the meantime...anyone who pledges mine has a pin to wear 24hr and 7 days a week and if it is taken off...they are no longer pledging.

End of story.

12dn94dst - I have no idea why you feel the need to call me ignorant and someone who lives in a bubble. There is no place for such insults here.

What I am describing to you is the hazing policy for ANY ORGANIZATION as described in many campus student life books. The same rules apply for sports organizations, student government or even the student newspaper. I do not live in a bubble. I am a reporter and write about this stuff all the time, and I've seen it on many campuses. Flat out, IT IS HAZING.

I'm done posting here, guys and gals. I'm tired of being judged for telling what is right.

Jen