That is not really an issue at all. Quota at UGA is set by how many PNMs attend pref and sign a prefernece ranking card. It is made very clear what the implications will be if they decline their bid after signing this legally binding agreement. I can only think of two or three situations this year where girls declined their bids.

To answer your question, yes. They would have 25 girl parties. Some would even be smaller because of scheduling. PNMs do not view this as a negative thing. It makes them feel honored to be one of the "select few."

Moving on to your question about how it could work for all four rounds. After these houses make their 60-70% cuts after round one they cut very few girls in subsequent rounds. They are not cutting 60-70% every day. Just initially. So they basically have to have a fairly good idea of who they want before recruitment even begins.

Does this answer your question?

It does answer my question. Thank you.

I'm surprised that it differs so much from how release numbers work in the first couple of post on this thread, but thanks for explaining.

That's good about quota. As far I as I knew, quota was still set by the number invited to prefs, as opposed to the number signing bid cards.

You are right, I would imagine very few if any groups won't make quota if only girls signing bid cards count!


Thank you!

Conniebama, my question was a little different only because UGA has 18 groups. While I think there are a few girls who get released completely early on (as you noted, if they have really low grades for example) as a percentage of total PNM, I would expect that the number of girls released completely after 1st round would be slim.

Please note that this next observation is based on my memories of a process that I don't know if I understood fully at the time, so it may be wildly wrong.

In the past there was always a significant group who, because they got released by their favorites so late, dropped between third round and prefs when they realized for the first time where they'd actually get bids.

And if I remember correctly from back in the 90s, these late drop outs who were invited to prefs might have counted towards quota, even though nobody was going to bid them.

It's excellent that now only girls signing bid cards count!

GeorgiaGirl, if I understand you correctly, basically only second round parties at these houses would be small because for third round, 300/6 is about size of everyone else.

Thanks!

At the campus where I advise having fewer parties is an option. You just have to let Panhellenic know by the time they schedule the parties. As far as I know the computer does the schedule.

there are way to many rules. sometimes i wish PHA rushed like IFC, everybody comes out and you go to the events you want.

done.

On some campuses, particularly smaller ones, they will use a much less structured recruitment. I do think that a PNM should go to each chapter at least once. At small schools with 4 or fewer chapters and with total at 40 or fewer, it doesn't always make much sense to approach recruitment with release figures.

If the "IFC method" were the only method of recruiting at schools with a large Greek community (i.e. 10+ chapters, total at least 100), you'd see patterns in membership, well, similar to the IFC, lots of turnover.

Well I am from a small (4 sororities) greek community university and WITH ALL OF THESE NEW rules there is so much potential for mistakes on "return rates" and I know this because it happened at the school I advise for this past recruitiment year. IT WAS A MESS and my specific chapter was drastically negatively effected.

Now, don't get me wrong if done correctly and without personal interference by the local panhellenic (given the fact that the greek advisor can and usually does have a favorite sorority - I mean they are only human) then I LOVE the new release figure method but Man when it goes bad it is awful and there is no way to go back and correct the problem.

Furthermore, due to the fact that one of the factors with the new system is to help the "struggling" chapters, if the system breaks down it hurts those chapters that much more. So, I do believe there is room for improvement in this system.

Sounds like the problem isn't the system - it's the faulty implementation of it. Is there any way to "fix" the problems before next recruitment? Advisors are only human, but that doesn't mean they get a pass for playing obvious favorites!

Oh yea I am sorry of course the "issue" that occured will be corrected prior to the next formal recruitment, however the damage was done and there was no way to correct it during the 07 formal recruitment period

- and yes it was human error that should have been caught by the greek advisor and should have been easy to see - and could have been stopped by the GREEK ADVISOR ONLY for she was the only person in authority that new all of the release numbers (I don't want to say too much)

- BUT really I am over it now because alls well that ends well - I just hate to see human error mess up a good system to that extent

Just a quick question for you release figure gurus - how are release figures set for a new chapter that hasn't been through recruitment? Can they invite back as many as they want for each set of parties?

My understanding is that for a new chapter, since it has no historical statistics that
the chapter is allowed to invite back any number of women.

My assumption would be that the chapter is encouraged to invite back almost all of their women from round to round (the equivalent of assuming the chapter has an historically poor return rate each day). If it's a campus using RFM, the flex lists should be able to help cushion the numbers if the chapter does better than expected, so they don't have ridiculously large parties.

I'm sure others on here will be able to tell us more precisely.

hmmmm
 

This idea of not offering legacies just seems contradictory on so many levels.

If a FOUNDER of any organization could see how membership is done presently, I would think they would be appalled. Why would any organization risk alienating alums by not offering legacies? You not only lose future membership, but also financial support as well.

If an organization is successful (however you measure it, but let's use size, because of 'quotas'), then why should you turn away membership? How did this policy start? Some weaker organization whining about how they are shrinking, and then this policy was instituted to help them out? Was the policy started by a non-greek or someone with a grudge? Why would any organization want to help their competition? After all, every organization is competing for alum financial support and member support...

If House A can attract 200 people, and House X can only get 5, then House X deserves to go silent, unless they fix the problem. If House A decides to NOT offer legacies, and all of a sudden their Alums stop supporting them (causing decline), then they ALSO deserve that as well.

Actually, my organization limited membership nearly from the get go. Direct from our public history: "In our first constitution, chapter membership was limited to 25." That was over 125 years ago and a decision made by the founders. Is the limit the same today? No, because it depends on the campus.

You seem quite bitter.

It's this characterization that just baffles most reasonable people. It's 'bitter' if your opinion is to let weaker organizations that cannot adapt or change or improve go silent or let stronger ones retain legacies and strength.

Where is this being discussed? I looked back in this thread and didn't see it. I am not familiar with what you are talking about.


I think that the NPC groups feel one of their goals is to support Greek life and help grow and nurture the Greek environment. After all, we are all basically striving for the same thing. So, it is natural that we are not going to "go after" each other and hope for the worst for other groups who may be struggling.

There was another word starting with "bit" I was thinking of, but yeah, bitter works too.

If you think it's beneficial for women to be in a chapter with 300-400 members - and YES this would happen if some chapters offered bids to all the legacies going through - then you have an extremely screwed up view of what sisterhood is supposed to be about.

I personally do not consider the concept of a group with 400 members where the majority of people don't know each other's names or faces to be "strong" where sororities are concerned, but hey, if all you care about is letters on a jersey and a resume, rock out with your cock out.

ETA: I see you have dipped your toe in these waters before. Maybe your daughter's resume/stats just weren't good enough to get her in, or the chapter didn't like her, or SHE didn't like the chapter (and it showed). Suck it up, quit blaming the sorority, and move the eff on - for your daughter's sake.

I am seriously LMAO at this.

And nothing new to add, just that I agree w/ 33girl and KSU

Since you seem to be confused on the origin of legacy policies, every NPC has its own legacy policy, Panhellenic just uses release figures to tell each chapter how many women to invite to each round. Many NPCs will guarantee a legacy an invite to the first invitational round when space allows. This is not possible for very competitive chapters on certain campuses who have so many legacies going through (ie more than quota).

I think you're upset at the concept of quota and RFM. Panhellenic does not tell any member organization how to evaluate its legacies. So why would NPCs agree to a quota system? Because every NPC has struggling chapters somewhere. (Or chapters that would be struggling if not for RFM.) The quota system (and RFM) help maximize Greek membership on every campus, which in turn helps the struggling chapters that every NPC has somewhere.

Quite often the only "problem" your hypothetical "House X" might have is that PNMs don't give it a chance because of tent talk by other PNMs, other Greeks, alumnae, etc. This is where RFM steps in and allows these chapters the chance to show PNMs how great their chapters are.

I think back to how recruitment was done at my alma mater in the 1980s (based on stories). There were few cuts after the first round, so many PNMs would drop the "less popular" chapters as soon as they could, but then get cut out of all their other options as recruitment went on. If RFM had been used beginning in the 1980s, my school might still have Pi Beta Phi, Alpha Gamma Delta, Alpha Xi Delta, and Gamma Phi Beta.

If you were an active alum in your NPC, you'd probably be aware of the legacy policies and competitiveness of your sorority at your daughter's campus, and you'd probably still be active in your local alumnae chapter and support the local collegiate chapter with time and/or money. I'm guessing your sorority isn't losing much without your participation. If it were really that important to your daughter to join your sorority, she should have tried her luck at a campus with a less competitive chapter. Or maybe your dear daughter really isn't as great as you think she is.

Is the landing pad ready? I hear helicopters hovering...
Just sayin'

I would like to believe that most alumnae realize that being a member of a NPC group means that what benefits the system ultimately benefits their individual group. Having a variety of groups on each campus helps make sure that the majority of pnms can find a home, whether or not they are legacies. My love for Gamma Phi Beta is not contingent on an individual chapter's choice to extend a bid to my daughter. Were my daughter to pledge elsewhere, I would support her in that chapter but would certainly continue my support of Gamma Phi. I am more than a Gamma Phi - I am a member of the NPC, and firmly believe that there are NO member groups whose letters I would not be proud to see on my daughter.

It seems contradictory to me to say that small chapters should not benefit from the help that quotas afford them and also that legacies should have the assistance of automatic membership. Shouldn't they also stand or fall on their own merits?

Also, is it just me that shudders at the use of the phrase "offer legacies" instead of "offer membership to legacies"?

Well, she doesn't seem to be the brightest when it comes to putting her thoughts down in a way that makes sense.

See here:
Emphasis mine, but still. She essentially asked if nationals prohibited legacies. That's why, in the thread I quoted that from, I said I'd be surprised if any organization ever mandated that membership not be offered to legacies.

So, yeah. Bitter bitter, fwap fwap.

:rolleyes:

LOVE THIS.

My (biological) sister will be attending my University next year, and if she decides to go through recruitment, I would love to see her become my (Kappa) sister. But if she were to go Alpha Phi, Phi Mu or to one of the non-NPC groups, I would be just as proud to see her wear the letters of a sisterhood she loves.

As to this business about letting the survival of the fittest take over and eliminate "weaker" groups - if that were the case, I probably would never have become a Kappa. When I joined my chapter, it was in serious trouble. While the other 3 groups had 120ish members, Kappa had 40ish. In the last 3 years, with a lot of hard work by the sisters and support from our nationals as well as the Greek Life office, we've doubled in size and are on pretty solid ground. We're continuing to improve and grow. If everyone had just given up on our chapter, and RFM had not been in place, I have no doubt that my chapter would have closed years ago, probably less than 5 or 6 years after it was chartered. That's exactly what happened to the DG chapter on our campus back in the early 90's.

This also fits in with what SWTXBelle said about being an NPC sister as well as the sister of a specific group. I strongly believe we have obligations to help struggling groups or sisters, no matter their letters... especially since every NPC group I know advocates helping those in need, whether or not they're Greek.

And I look at it this way... Even if my chapter was doing great compared to the others on my campus, I would definitely try to help them in hopes that they received more members and didn't die out. Because I know that somewhere, a chapter of my sorority is struggling, and I would want the other NPC chapters on their campus to help them.

It's never good to hear that chapters have closed.

No matter the letters... :p

hand matching - QAs
 

I'm trying to determine how likely it is that an organization would be allowed to extend bids over quota. Also, since total is say, 45, and a chapter goes into recruitment with 34, if quota is 10, then realistically, they MOST amount of bids they would be allowed to give out, is quota plus 1, right?

My understanding, is that each PNMs name is called alphabetically, with her first choice. If she is on the first bid list, for that chapter, it's a match. If she's on the second bid list for her first choice chapter, she gets put aside, right? And then once all the names are gone through, the names that had been put aside are gone through again, if she has moved up to the first bid list due to a previous PNMs matching with another chapter, then it's a match. If she's still not on the first bid list of the chapter she lists first by the time that chapter reaches quota, then her second choice, if they've not yet made quota themselves, and if she's on their first bid list, will extend her a bid, correct? But if she's not on the first bid list of her second choice at that point, and her second choice has not made quota - will they still extend her a bid, or will her first choice still be allowed to extend her a bid? And even if the PNM suicides, if she was not on their first bid list, they would not be allowed to extend her a bid, would they? Because she didnt maximize her options....(unless she was only invited to their party...and then she maximized her options, so they could give her a bid)?

Help!

Yes and No. You have to be careful here. Quota and Total have nothing to do with each other. Quota is a term that applies ONLY to formal recruitment. It is not set based on Total in any way. A chapter can go over Total during formal recruitment by taking Quota. So in your example, if the chapter is at 34, Total is 45, but Quota is 20, they can still take all 20 of Quota.

When you say "quota plus 1," that depends on the "plus 1." You may take Quota Additions even if you are already over Total. Remember - Quota is formal recruitment only and has nothing to do with Total.

Now. Let's assume in your example that the chapter at 34 took Quota of 10 during formal recruitment. After FR, they are still 1 under Total. So they may COR that last open spot to get to Total of 45. That last spot can be filled by anyone regardless of whether or not she participated in FR. But if your "plus 1" was a Quota Addition obtained during FR bid matching, then the chapter is at Total and done recruiting.


Right

Correct.

The names of unmatched PNMs and their preferences will continue to be called until all chapters either make Quota or run out of names on their bid list. So this second choice chapter will either match to Quota before this PNM moves up to their first bid list, or she will match to them. If everyone matches to Quota before the PNM gets placed, she will be available for Quota Additions.

Quota Additions are placed depending on pre-recruitment chapter size, the PNM's preference, where she ranked on each chapter's bid list, etc.


You are correct. If a PNM has two Preference party invitations yet ranks only one of those chapters on her MRABA, then she will match ONLY if she is on that chapter's first bid list. And of course that first bid list changes throughout the process. So if chapter ABC lists the suiciding PNM as #5 on their B list, but 5 women on their A list match to XYZ chapter, then 1-5 on the B list move up to A. So she will match.

If a PNM has only one Preference party invitation, she can only list that one chapter on her MRABA, so as long as that chapter does what they are supposed to do and lists her on their bid list, she should match.

Awesome! Thank you so much!!!!

Now...in the SIP example above - PNM suicided, but she was not on the chapters first bid list and they had already made quota...if that chapter was NOT at or above total at the end of FR....would they be allowed to snap bid, or COB her? Or, since that chapter is still below total, even though they are at Quota, would this be considered a snap bid?

My campus panhellenic is VERY young....we're finally getting our crap together this year.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

The only restriction on a PNM who single intention preferences (aka suicides) is that she is inelible to be a Quota Addition. A Chapter can snap bid her to achieve Quota or COB her to reach Total.

If that chapter was still below Total, they could COR her. Here's another difference in terminology. :) Snap Bidding goes along with formal recruitment only. If a chapter does not make Quota during FR, they may offer snap bids to any PNM who attended at least one round of FR and then was either released or dropped out or unmatched after bid matching. Snap bidding is only to fill spots in QUOTA. Snap bidding only takes place between bid matching and Bid Day Ceremony.

Continuous Recruitment (sometimes Continuous OPEN Recruitment - COR) is done outside of the formal recruitment window. It can be used to fill vacancies in Quota (if the chapter did not match or snap to Quota) or to fill vacancies in Total. CR begins after Panhellenic Bid Day Ceremonies are over.

So the PNM who ISP'ed (Intentional Single Preference / suicide) but did not match to her choice is available to be snap bidded to any chapter who did not make Quota. If she does not accept a snap bid, she is then eligible for a COR bid to any chapter that did not make Quota or is not at Total.

** Personal Opinion note here: If this situation is rampant within a Panhellenic, it would be in that Panhellenic's best interest to review Total. If most chapters are still below Total even after the conclusion of FR, it becomes a breeding ground for dirty rushing. Chapters could tell a PNM to suicide, then if she doesn't match, she can be picked up through COR after recruitment. Bad Bad Bad.

You are correct!

Well, the chapter who is our biggest competitor on campus got quota (and above total) with FR, which is good. However, they dropped ALOT of PNMs before pref, and told those girls: "Dont worry, we'll snap bid you." 2 of those girls came to our pref parties and signed their bid card with our chapter on it, but have not yet accepted. One of those girls is hacked off at the 1 year rule, but it's not our fault that their chapter didnt invite her to pref, and then toyed with her by saying "we'll snap bid you." This happened AFTER pref parties were over and before bid day, so of course, that PNM did not accept our bid on bid day. THAT is what ticks me off...she signed our card, ready to accept our bid, then she got mixed signals from someone in their chapter telling her "you can still be one of us...dont accept their bid"...So, since her best friend is in the other sorority, she hung out on the sidelines and watched them in their bid day festivities.

Whatever...I guess if she wants to follow them around like a lost little puppy dog for a year, hoping she can get in next year, that's her choice. She looked ridiculous though. It probably never occurred to her that they didnt invite her to pref for a reason. What chapter is going to be stupid enough to cut a girl during FR, if they REALLY wanted her, especially if they are going to be above total? Sounds to me like she doesnt get the hint. I wonder if she invited herself to bid night....ya know, since her best friend is in that sorority, so she would be automatically invited to hang out anyway?

Maybe I should but this story in the stupid PNM thread.

These are HUGE infractions. You need to speak to your Fraternity/Sorority Advisor. The second one is a strict silence violation in addition to bid promising. However, you will need to be 100% confident that all the details you have are correct.

Sure. You can't force a chapter to take people

Yes but it would be impact that chapter's long term rushing strength. Don't forget ANY women on campus who are f-t regularlly enrolled steudents are eligible to pledge in COR. Why on earth would a chapter not fill to capacity if the opportunity presented itself?

If they're only a couple of girls under total, it may very well not be worth it to COR. COR costs money and time, and depending on how far after the most recent pledge class started, a COR class may have to be it's own pledge class, which is a big pain as well.

I also get a weird feeling from the poster who asked, considering her failed attempt at rush last year. The post just seems weird. Almost like a chapter that she's interested in COR'ing told her they weren't participating, and she wants to tell them they're wrong.

Yours. No one is entitled to a bid. And COR events are usually much smaller, so 3 PNMs means nothing.

Because the available PNMs suck?

Because the amount of pledges the chapter has is already more than they can handle? We all love hearing about the chapter of 50 (when the rest are 200) who suddenly gets quota of 45 one year because it means the chapter did something right in rush. We don't always stop to think about the mechanics of absorbing a pledge class the same size as the sorority.

Because the available PNMs suck?

Because as Dani said, it isn't worth the money and/or time?

Because the available PNMs suck?