If so, I finally have her answer to what she would call it when a man has sex with a woman who has said no: It's just a "learning experience." :rolleyes:

If it's not her, perhaps she'll answer. I won't hold my breath, though.

(I think it was rhetorical sarcasm when she asked if honorgal is Princeton Mom.)

I identify as "middle wing" or "no wing--they all suck".

I think we all know that these are complex issues. There can be fairness and unfairness across the board. I agree that women are not perpetual victims and we need to do away with both the offender mentality and the victim mentality as extreme ways of addressing these social issues. We do want (potential) victims to be able to voice opposition if able to do so.

But, the issue I have with people who coat this as "she should've stopped him" and "it isn't really rape" is that the very same people who espouse this viewpoint would fly to the highest hill of heaven if this was their loved one alleging that she had been raped. Sure, these people may "slut shame" this loved one given certain circumstances but the louder viewpoint would be "stop the press, I'm tired of this mess happening to our DAHHHLING family member!!!"

It really reminds me of the pro-life and pro-choice debate. There are pro-lifers who have had abortions and who have urged the women in their families to have abortions because somehow the women in their families are more awesome and deserving of an untainted future than everyone else.

/rant

Here is the link you posted:

http://archive.freep.com/assets/free...C422124157.PDF

And no, you can find your own posts to "edit" them so as to make disappear things you initially said in them.

Oh, I thought it was a joke. Nope, sorry to disappoint your fevered imaginations, not me. None of my kids went to Princeton, nor did I (I assume she or one of her kids did). And I've never been on CNN. Rats! :D

You owe me an apology. But I won't hold my breath.

www.freep.com is the Detroit Free Press URL. It's a newspaper. In Detroit. Not exactly a bastion of right wing activists.

lol - still no answer

It's okay, honorgal. I'm not surprised you won't answer the question.

I guess I misunderstood the question. I thought it was "Honorgal, is that you."

I think every allegation should be taken seriously and examined thoroughly. If we take the example of UVA, we see an almost unanimous reflex to do the former, and a lot of loud noisy and unfair opposition to the latter. That's not going to solve the problem.

As for what I bolded, whether intended or not, the message that is evolving from activists is the opposite. I think that message infantilized and puts more women in danger. I respect the opposing view, but I don't see much evidence of reciprocity. (Maybe an occasional hint ;) )

You should put this in your signature to override anything you type to the contrary.

Not necessary. I have never typed anything to the contrary of allegations being taken seriously and examined thoroughly.

So your posts about "silent consent" and "victims who didn't resist" didn't come across as dismissing certain claims?

I don't think you misunderstood so much as you're deliberately avoiding the question; at least, you're coming across as though you're reluctant to answer the question. But, just to be clear, I'll ask it for the second time on this page alone:
If not rape, what do you call it when a man has sex with a woman who has said "No"?

No, read what I said again. Are you saying that ALL allegations have to be found to have merit and result in charges and a guilty finding?

No, not reluctant. I just didn't realize who had posted the link to the lady on CNN.

That's pretty simplistic, isn't it? In some cases, I would easily call it rape. In others, such as the facts presented by Swarthmore co-ed, I would not.

Read your post yourself.

ETA: In addition to your previous posts about your silent sex with your husband and how someone who is really being victimized would not be silent during the victimization.

You are not just saying that all claims should be investigated. You are not just saying that not every claim is legitimate. We all already know these things.

What you are saying is that if it isn't easily "called rape" by people such as yourself then that is problematic which comes across as dismissive. Do you not see how this viewpoint doesn't challenge better handling of claims but, instead, encourages what is already happening in the dismissal of claims that do not automatically fit the "formula of rape"?

Okay, so you ARE saying that ALL allegations have to result in charges and guilty findings.

We've looked at a very specific claim, with a specific set of facts. An example. There is nothing problematic with saying every allegation should be taken seriously and examined thoroughly AND then looking at a specific claim and saying no, that wouldn't be considered rape. That's what colleges are doing all over the country. If you think we should just ajudicate EVERY claim as guilty of rape, why don't you just come out and say it?

People such as myself? You mean like the administration at the ultra-liberal Swarthmore?

You are hopefully better at reading than that.


You said "such as the facts presented..." which implies that you are making a general statement from the Swarthmore example.

It is not as though you are not "calling it rape" based on a full investigation. You are not "calling it rape" based on particular details for which you find implausible. Again, your "silent consent" and your disbelief in "silent victims".

. No, it implies what I am actually saying, not whatever the heck it is that you keep trying desperately but incoherently to imagine I am saying - that all allegations should be taken seriously, and investigated thoroughly, and that some of them, based on the particular facts of each individual case, will turn out to not be rape.

. Well, duh, that's obvious. All we have to go on are what the magazine published.

People at colleges all over the country are having to make judgement calls and decisions (ours happen to be theoretical and without consequence for anyone). I'm not sure what your point is? I would not find the male student in that scenario guilty of rape. Neither did Swarthmore. You would., although you never did say what the punishment should be. So what is your point again?

Swarthmore did find him responsible for sexual assault (the administrative equivalent of guilty). He was expelled.

Wait... You ARE making a general point from the Swarthmore example. So you agree with me. Ohhhhh, you almost had yourself confused there.

But now that you know that the Swarthmore incident resulted in punishment. Now what?

Isn't it cool how your devil's advocate from that other thread conveniently disappears?

That you conflict yourself and, the sad part, are unaware of the conflict.

Are you sure about that? Might be another case from the magazine article?

My reading of it is that she went to the Dean and then said that she never heard back from the Administration.

.

Your mixing apples and oranges isn't very coherent to whatever the heck you are trying to say.


.

What a reach, don't strain yourself. With swarthmore example, I laid it out as a thought experiment. And specifically said lets stipulate that these are the facts.



. And I'm sure that if I asked you to specify the conflict, that you'd just ignore in your typical passive aggressive fashion, so I won't bother.

Been trying to figure out what you are grasping at Dr. Phil.

I think you are trying to say that by not agreeing with a more expansive definition of rape that I am being dismissive of some claims? Is that it?

You'll have to show me where in the article it says that.

Are you pretending to have struggled to grasp this? How unfortunate.


Swarthmore update:

http://articles.philly.com/2014-12-04/news/56689201_1_new-information-assault-honors-student

I am not opposed to his filing a lawsuit if he maintains he was wrongfully accused and wrongfully punished by the school. As I said many threads ago, schools sometimes expel students to save their reputations even if an official investigation would yield inconclusive or find false allegations. This sometimes even happens when the accuser recants. Unfortunately, many of the accused in the bolded instance are unable to sue the school. I know one man in particular to whom this applies.

Continuing with the passive aggressive posting I see. THAT'S unfortunate.

Is that suppose to be proof that this is the same student in the example I gave from the Phillymag story? It's clearly not the same case.

Honorgal, please learn the definitions of words and phrases if you insist on their use. I beg of you.

There is nothing passive aggressive about finding it unfortunate that you have missed one of the points that many of us have been making to you in various threads. It is fine to disagree. It is not fine if the point goes over your head, post after post after post. That is perplexing.

It IS perplexing, I agree. Why not just say "yes, that is the point I was trying to make"?

Is that suppose to be the same case that we were discussing earlier, the one that I posted as a "thought experiment"?

Because such simplicity is wasted on people like you.

Why did you edit your post where you asserted it is clearly not the same case as the one you posted? Are you now uncertain?

I didn't. It's still there. I made another post. Because you didn't answer the first one.

Do you think it's the same case?

Okay, I will give you that it is not the same case if, as the first news story reports, both the accuser and the accused graduated spring 2013. Got it. My apologies.

************

This is not an update of the investigation (if one even exists) but here is an interesting article that may have already been discussed in one of these threads:
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/07...orge-wi/199937

Lisa Sendrow has actually been a very active voice with quite a bit of stuff on the Internet.

Appreciate that. I have a link to the successful lawsuit that was filed by the Swarthmore student if you are interested.

When you say "bolded instance" are you referring to the link you provided or something else that I'm missing?

My apologies. I confused it with another case. In the Sendrow Swarthmore case, both students graduated shortly after the complaint, and the victim is unaware what, if anything, happened to the alleged offender after that. So we don't know if there was any punishment.

http://www.phillymag.com/articles/ra...xual-assaults/

No problem. It's hard to keep the details straight especially because a lot of them sound depressingly similar.

I would think in order for there to have been a punishment in the Sendrow case, there would first need to have been an investigation which would require her testimony/involvement. But who knows. Maybe they've bowed to the extremists wishes and all they need is an allegation and they skip straight to a finding of guilt.

Thank you, DBB.

There are so many ways society accidentally and sometimes intentionally teaches children and adults that their bodies are not their own, that they have no control over life outcomes, and that they are obligated to show attention and affection.