Educational law? I believe you mean administrative law. Yes, FERPA claims go to an administrative body to adjudicate whether a school has committed a violation. Again, the penalty is loss of federal funding for the school.

A guidance counselor penalized in return is not liable. In fact, she can file a lawsuit. The school cannot seek indemnity or contribution in a against the guidance counselor in an administrative proceeding for a FERPA violation. They can't make the guidance counselor pay to replace fedearl funds or state that is her fault or have her take the blame.

Thus, you are incorrect. A guidance counselor has no liability for a FERPA violation in an administrative hearing and any attempt at retaliation for the school's FERPA violation is going to land the school, the school district, and the state in a lawsuit for wrongful termination.

The only repercussions are to the school. Your original argument asserted that the counselor would be open to liability. You are now attempting to change your hypothetical to talk of nebulous "repercussions" for the guidance counselor because you are determined to be right. You're wrong.

I agree. We are all looking for quality young women who will become quality members. Some groups take alumnae input into more consideration than others.

Love this!

I think this is well said. We wouldn't all be fighting over the same PNMs if a good candidate for one isn't also a good candidate for others. I think that we, as NPCers have far more in common than differences.

And I'd still like to hear from some more actives. Where's Old Row?

Oh keep your shorts on. :) I'll change "educational" law to "administrative" law, and "liability" to "expose one's district to potential repercussions" if you like.

I'm really not that invested in being correct about the participation of the high school guidance counselor -- it doesn't seem necessary if the info needed for recruitment is on the transcript. Subjective opinions, particularly negative judgements or predictions made by the guidance counselor, may be another matter.

I think you may just be determined to split hairs and wave around a law degree. ;)

Which might be handy for your guidance counselor friends in the event sorority alums come calling and ask for information on a list of female seniors (unsolicited by the female seniors, and without their knowledge or consent).
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But if that were the case, then most if not all GLOs outside the NPC may be jeopardizing their single-sex status. Obviously, I don't fully know the policies of any groups but my own, but I've never heard of anything like NPC-style recs outside of NPC sororities. The idea that not using recs like that could jeopardize single-sex status sounds like post hoc rationalization.

You may not be invested in being correct, but you sure act like it. You shouldn't throw around terms and laws and procedures if you don't have even a layman's understanding of them. And there's no need to launch into personal attacks.

I'm not splitting hairs. I'm calling you out because you have no idea what you're talking about, and you insist you backtracking or changing the scenario to attempt to make yourself right.

TL;DR: You made an incorrect assertion.

In one rec I wrote, for a woman rushing a Midwestern university, I included newspaper articles concerning her underage drinking bust (large party=big news here) the summer prior to her beginning college. She was turned away from my group, but joined another.

lol, I agree:



Back to topic, let me ask the question another way (and I would appreciate your legal justification for this practice, in terms of protecting confidential student information):

If Mildred A. Lum from XYZ sorority calls a local high school guidance counselor, and asks for information on a list of senior females, the guidance counselor is free to disclose this information -- including info and potentially negative opinions concerning academic struggles and remedial classes taken (as previously mentioned on this thread) -- without the knowledge or consent of the senior females?

At my local high school, the guidance counselor would probably hang up. In layman's terms of course. ;)

It just seems pretty straightforward to me:

Quick Guide to Privacy of Student Records (FERPA)
http://sja.ucdavis.edu/files/quickguide.pdf

Even parents need written consent from their student on file to access their own child's records once they turn 18.

And I would simply not send a rec instead of doing this. Especially if a ton of kids in town got in trouble for the same party.

Wondering when carnation's going to shut this one down.

This is actually the issue I'm interested in talking about.

I'm in the rec-writing always-done-it-this-way group, but it seems to me that chapters all over recruit and pledge great girls into (our own) sisterhoods without going through all these motions.

Thank you, Low C Sharp -- appreciate your legal expertise based on experience with FERPA.
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My biggest problem with the "recs required" systems is it is patently unfair to anyone who grew up outside the south, and since students are traveling all across the US (and worldwide) to go to school, this seems like a step to limit the chances or increase the stress factor for the girl who isn't from a large'ish southern city who's mom wasn't a socialite.

My guess is, and for dog's sake don't take this to the bank, there ARE chapters in the deep south where recs are actually NOT required. But would I want it put on record that my sorority doesn't? Hell no. It would have the affect of saying we are less selective. Unless my sorority's MS system has changed dramatically, recs have a role, but I can't imagine that one element being enough on its own to get a girl cut unless she was low on the bubble anyway. And if I'm correct in this thinking (that they don't hold as much weight as we like to say), then I think stopping talking about it so much would be really really helpful. If it were possible to go back to only writing recs for girls who you personally know so that they were an actual leg up, then I'd be all for that. But while we keep saying they are absolutely positively, you not only aren't getting a bid but you might get kicked out of school and probably will never have friends in your whole life required, then girls will continue getting them for every chapter, regardless of how tedious or unhelpful.

Absolutely agree with this narrow example provided and respect your experience. I will continue to contend that the hypothetical posed by the other poster implying blanket liability for saying anything about a student was incorrect.

I guess this is where I turn on my heel and flounce dramatically?

So...you don't send a rec. How is the chapter supposed to know if you don't tell them?
Really and truly, those ***warning*** recs are more valuable than the ones for the (presumably) "good" girls.
Please alumnae...if you know something, alert the chapter! Don't assume that if there's no rec, they won't pledge that candidate!

As far as no recs go, I have never sent one in but sometimes you don't need to since people's reputations can precede them. Several years ago, there was a girl in my area who had a great resume of activities, strong GPA and very cute appearance. She also had the ability to bring to life Carrie Underwood's lyrics of "I took a Louisville Slugger to both headlights." She demolished the car of a fellow student, right in the high school parking lot...though I believe a crow bar was her actual tool of destruction. She did this junior year and the victim was not a cheating boyfriend -- it was a girl who was her competition in the race to win some guy's heart. (I believe she lost.) Anyway, the families of these two girls ended up handling it privately, so there is no info on Crow Bar Girl to be found via Google. She did, however, end up at a university attended by MANY girls from her high school and a lot are Greek. They already knew the story.

I'd prefer not to make an assumption about the character of a person who got caught up for a single mistake drinking at a party at which there were so many students charged with underage drinking that it made the paper.

Kids do stupid things. That doesn't mean that they're beyond redemption or can't learn from a single mistake.

ETA: this is directed to AnchorAlumna's comment about my earlier response to cheerio. Greekdee's comment describes a whole other level of crazy.

Well, that's really not what I said.

But a lane swerve --

I don't necessarily feel that school district staff -- potentially including teachers, principals, and even guidance counselors -- all know FERPA well themselves (understandably, since they set out to be teachers, not lawyers).

At least that was my experience during my only encounter with FERPA -- I used FERPA, on behalf of my child, to obtain copies of emails (containing negative info) that were swapped between a few teachers. While my son was informed by a coach/teacher that he (the teacher) sent these to other teachers and administrators (pertaining to a situation in his class), the coach ignored my request to be included (I was never informed of the incident in question, either, other than by my child).

As per FERPA, these emails were subject to becoming part of my child's educational record, and not considered protected (or private) communication between staff.

The emails were illuminating, and the problem was easily resolved (I wasn't after punishment or legal vengence -- just wanted to solve the perceived problem). I didn't file a complaint or involve an attorney (the school apparently involved their own board attorney to interpret the law, as the principal was reluctant to release these). I don't know what administration said to the teachers regarding the content of the emails. However, a school-wide FERPA inservice was held the following month -- which was a good thing, for their own protection.

I don't claim to be an expert on FERPA, but while I "don't have any idea what I'm talking about," as you contend, apparently some teachers and administrators know even less than I, and are in need of training.

One way or another, if I was a high school guidance counselor, and Mildred A. Lum called requesting info about senior girls, I would err on the side of protecting the students' privacy. I would advise Mildred to obtain transcripts from the girls themselves.

I would need a compelling reason to contact a chapter regarding a PNM's past.

^But that would probably do it. :eek:

While it may be true that some orgs don't hold a rec in the same regard as others, within the orgs that do, there are still regional differences. If there was an actual valuation on it as adpiucf refers to, if nobody has a rec, then it is a level playing field. If everybody has a wonderful rec, it is a level playing field. At these very competitive schools, I'm sure just having a rec doesn't put a young woman on a level playing field, because the quality of the rec matters.

Nobody wants to get too far into membership selection but I would hazard a guess that, like college or job recommendation letters, the quality of the opinion within the rec becomes obvious and important. I've only written recs for young women I know personally that I could absolutely say would contribute greatly to ANY organization. If I wrote one that was less gushing, it would be obvious.

I went to a school where we knew what they were, but rarely received them. We were always asked about them by traveling consultants "Where are your recs?" The reality is, here, in this state, sorority membership is not valued by the general society. It is not required to get into the Junior League or be in the higher social circles. In fact, nobody really cares about social circles in this area. It is not a source of pride, it tends to be something you have to defend.

In the past two decades, it was nearly impossible to find someone walking around the U of Michigan campus in letters. There were these big huge houses with letters on them. You never saw people wearing letters though. It was NOT a source of pride. They didn't want to defend their choice all the time. That has been changing in this decade, and that's a good thing! But, all most people know up here is what they see in the media- hazing and drinking. Because of that, people don't talk about their greek experiences much outside of their group.

Even deeper than that though... girls don't have recs up here because they have no clue that they might want to go through recruitment until they're at school, see the Greek tables at the student org fairs, go to some Meet the Greek events around campus to get the free food and then say "Hey, that looks like it might be fun to do" three days before recruitment starts. They don't sign up 4 months in advance and move into the dorms early. If they did, nobody would be there. They show up to orientation and register. When would they possibly get recs? Being greek is rarely on their radar before they get to school. As much as I talked it up to Hypo's friends, the one who did go through (other than Hypo) didn't even tell me until after first rounds and it was too late for me to do a rec! She's an Alpha Gam anyway, but still...

We say this because at the schools we have noted in another thread, for a PNM to be in the driver's seat (as much as she can) they ARE a must. It doesn't matter if you think they are bogus and unnecessary, it doesn't matter if I think they are unnecessary, the fact is that they ARE. If they are not needed, and in some cases not even recognized, at other schools, then the PNM does not have to worry herself obtaining them. For the most part, PNM classes at the large, southern schools are ginormous, and recs. are required, and enough girls think it is worth the effort that they comply. If they didn't, I think the #'s registered for recruitment would not continue to rise, as they have been.

It's like someone thinking that references for college admission or a job are stupid and unnecessary. After all, the person conducting the interview should know enough to make a good decision based on the actual interview and the applicants transcript and resume'. Yet applicants are still expected to supply both for any professional job they fill out an application for and if they don't, woe to them.

I guess what I am trying to say is, most sororities up north haven't seen a recommendation and don't know what to do with them(from what has been reported here on GC), and that's okay. I am not going to tell them that they are wrong. But if a PNM is headed south, and especially if she is attending a large university that has a competitive recruitment, she had better invest some time and round up at least one recommendation for each chapter on campus. If that chapter doesn't want to use the rec., they can shred it. But it is better to be prepared than to be sorry later.

I would add that for some sororities, it is a national requirement that each new member have a rec. before she participates in the formal pledging ceremony.

I'm not saying it's not true, just that if we stop saying it, maybe the number of girls getting recs to every single chapter will drop to a realistic number and they will therefore not be as important to the process. If it's just a box to be checked, then they should be dumped. If you want them to be used for a valid purpose then the threat of near death if you don't have them should stop. If after a reasonable search among grown ups you actually know you don't know anyone who is Greek, then that should be that. But until practicality and logic are brought into the process I would tell any girl to beat every bush for any stranger who can recite the Greek alphabet. But I still stand on my opinion that this practice is ridiculous and abusive.

eta/or go to school in the north.

Exactly. I think I may have posted something similar to this earlier in the thread. It's just not the same up north as it is down south. In many cases, the word "sorority" doesn't enter a girl's vocabulary until she's at least a few weeks into her freshmen year of college.

I wouldn't consider this exactly the same. When obtaining recommendations to attend school or to get a job, you're soliciting those recommendations from people you know and from people who know you. On the other hand, in some cases, PNMs are obtaining recs to join a sorority from people they've never even met before.

I think the point was more "you have to do some homework", and that's fine, but one of the very worst things about recs, IMO, is that PNM's who aren't in the know are constantly told they do NOT have to obtain them.

I don't think this is correct or maybe DG interprets this differently than other organizations do. AOII does NOT require a recommendation to be initiated. I know this for a fact. New Members are voted in by the group, so I think this is probably sufficient to maintain any single-sex status, exclusivity requirements mandated by the federal government.

I'd say a fair amount of what AGDee said above applies to the older chapter, Big Ten (13?) campuses. There are absolutely women who know they want to participate in FR before they come to school, but I'd say it's less than 50 percent, probably closer to 30 (at least, at the 3 schools I've been involved with in the past decade).
That said, just because a campus isn't on the list of RECS REQUIRED, doesn't mean recs are uncommon. I don't think it's out of line for me to say that two years ago, every single woman on our bid list had a rec written for her prior to recruitment. Now, that was unusual, but I'd say last year, probably 2/3rds of the bid list had recs. Again, that brings into question what quality of recs did each woman have? I'm sure it varied. But even this Yankee ;) knows what is a blah/lame/waste of time rec, what is a good rec, and what is a great rec. Thankfully I have yet to receive a "cannot recommend" rec.
There were certainly ladies with great recs who did not make it to later rounds and (in normal years) there were obviously ladies who did not have recs that made it to the bid list.
I just want to make it clear that, at the old, Midwestern campuses & chapters that I've worked with, we did receive recs, we did use them, and we did weigh them individually along with all the other info we had on the PNMs. I'm sure it varies from school to school, organization to organization and chapter to chapter, but I (and I believe, the actives) found them useful.
Just my perspective :)

I was also thinking the "directional" MAC kinds of schools- Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, etc. Recs are a little more common in the Big 10 (13) and the Big 10 does include schools like Indiana where they are definitely more common. But then, Indiana is deferred so women have some time to be exposed to the greek system in advance too.

Serving into the lane with you -

I admit I have skimmed/skipped the posts on this FERPA issue, but did read this one. Wow. I commend you for following through on this. I was a high school teacher and can only imagine what a runaway train situation those email exchanges were.

I'm swerving still --

Thanks, gee_ess. Fortunately the vast majority of his teachers have been wonderfully supportive, and I think not at all sorry that (especially one) particular individual’s unprofessional behavior was exposed.

Since his initial bluff was to refuse to meet with me without including the entire teaching team and administrators, I complied with his wish and scheduled the meeting. I'm sure it was disconcerting to finally meet with a parent, who has your snarky emails in hand, in front of the uninvolved staff that you involved via email and insisted all attend.

Turns out he was considerably taller in email.

Perhaps the point is to figure out whether the PNM is smart enough to realize who is in her corner/really likes her, and who is just faking it for social matters? Don't know, just a thought.

Shorter/easier pledge periods DEFINITELY have a lot to do with it. In effect, it seems like the work you do getting recs, preparing for rush etc is the work you used to do during pledging.

I'm pretty sure it was violetpretty who said at her school recs weren't looked on favorably because they were seen as meddling by alums (usually not from UMD) who didn't know anything about the school or the makeup of the chapter. Most other places, no matter how laid back the rush, I doubt it would HURT, unless the girl in question turned out to be someone on the more negative side of on the fence about her. We only got a handful that I can remember. One rec from Alum of Kansas School who moved to PA? Fine. If A of KS would have had 10 of her chapter sisters write recs and send letters, the response probably would have been "forget that, this girl must think we owe her something, no I don't think so."

This most definitely was NOT me. If you could edit your post that would be awesome.

First semester reputation is definitely primary at Vandy.

:eek:

:D

[QUOTE=DubaiSis;2204311]My biggest problem with the "recs required" systems is it is patently unfair to anyone who grew up outside the south, and since students are traveling all across the US (and worldwide) to go to school, this seems like a step to limit the chances or increase the stress factor for the girl who isn't from a large'ish southern city who's mom wasn't a socialite. QUOTE]

My daugther was the northern girl. She grew up in the way north, in a non-greek family, and with very little influence from friends who joined the greek community. She chose to attend a southern school with a very active greek life. She was entering recruitment as a sophomore, as she studied abroad her freshman year and was coming to campus for the first time to live. She has a very high GPA and is an attractive girl with a good resume.

We were oblivious to the process. She went through recruitment this past fall with one "known" rec submitted and it came from a close family friend and was beautifully written. We had NO idea what was truly necessary. Once she started the recruitment process, she was shocked and concerned as she learned that she needed a 'rec' from every sorority in order to be invited back, and to ultimately recieve a bid. The school is apparently known for this. In fact, it was apparent that these girls prepare for and look forward to this week for a very long time. The good news is, she was invited back to everyone of her picks, each day with a full schedule, with the exception of one (which happened to be where her letter of rec came from). We have since been told that while she did not submit letters, that the sororities may have, very well, obtained recs for her. She obtained a bid from a top tier sorority on campus.

She is so happy with her sorority and understands that she was fortunate. I guess this is the Cinderella story of an northern girl without a req., but if she did, indeed, have letters written for her that were requested by the sorority, how much do these letters truly mean?

[QUOTE=FSUMAMA;2206569]
My guess is that you truly have one special snowflake if she got a "top tier" bid as a sophomore with no recs at FSU.

Our point and the reason that we try so hard to get girls to get recs on their own is that this could have turned out completely differently for your daughter. Had the chapters NOT been able to get a rec for her, had they run out of time, had it been easier for them to find recs on OTHER girls, etc., then your daughter could have easily gone bidless. Better to keep as much of the process in your own hands than leave it to others to do the work.

Oblivious
 

I understand what you are saying. As I said, we were oblivious to the entire process and had no idea. She did not come there with the attitude that she didn't need them, she just didn't know, as she was from the north and living in another country her first year (which, even if she did know, would have been close to impossible to contact people for letters). We now know what is necessary and we also know that she was fortunate to get into her sorority. You'll be happy to know... she is a Theta. I have another daughter going through recruitment this next year. Believe me, she will have letters. We understand the process now. In addition, this forum has opened our eyes to a lot of the process... wish we had found it earlier. It is very useful.

You are right... I am thrilled to hear that she is a Theta :) So glad that it worked out well for her and she is happy!

FSUMAMA, Congratulations on your daughter's bid.

I do want to stress to future FSU PNMs that your daughter's success without recommendations is extremely rare and that they should make every effort to secure recommendations to every chapter at FSU.

Oh for the love of Mike!

PNMs: just get recs. Do not think twice, do not argue, do not whine, just get them.

Why? Because, in the process of doing so, PNMs learn all sorts of other things about GLO membership, and are better prepared for recruitment. And, I hope that they also learn that GLO membership goes far beyond three or four parties (and a lot of useless tier/tent talk).

Just to be clear, my question (OP) was not whether PNMs should obtain recs for schools on the must-have-recs list, but why as alums (at some schools) we insist on it:

I guess my actual question is . . . if chapters at schools outside of the must-have-recs list are able to recruit wonderful pledge classes full of accomplished and felony-free young women, are alum-generated and endorsed recs really necessary? Or do we just do this because we have always done things this way?

If any PNM who will be attending one of these schools is reading -- by all means, gather recs for each chapter. And get started now (if you haven't already)!

I think you've hit the nail on the head. You do it because you've always done it and 1 rec has become 2 and 3 required just because more has to be used to distinguish one from another. I think it's just silly. I wish we could change the rules so recs don't add points (or whatever the method is for giving recs weight during MS) and are used only to introduce a special girl to a chapter and not just checking off a box. I wish a fraction of the effort used in processing recs was directed toward more face time between rushers and rushees.