I'm a little confused by this. How can you "know" that someone has committed a crime and at the same time not know whether there is any merit to allegations of criminal activity? Or do you mean "know" as in "suspect," or "heard"?

In any event, I'd give two answers: First, yes, I actually thought about what I said coming from a lawyer, but the statement was that morals do not supercded protocol, not that morals do not supercede the law. (Though isn't the whole concept of civil disobedience predicated on the idea that morals do supersede the law if the law is itself immoral or compels an immoral result?)

Second, I don't think I see a conflict for your hypothetical officer. If he "knows" (as in strongly suspects) a crime has been committed, then there is a moral and legal obligation to pursue the matter further to determine whether a crime was in fact committed or not.

OK. I see where you're coming from.

Please disregard the rest ;)

I, like many Penn Staters, have spent the last few days trying to make sense of all this...trying to figure out what to think and how to feel about it all. I've wanted to comment on this, but it's taken me a few days to sort out how I feel and what I want to say.

My initial gut reaction, before reading all the news reports, was to defend JoePa. I do believe he is being villianized the most since he is the most famous and most visible and most symbolic of Penn State. The #1 villian should be Sandusky. #2 should be Schultz and Curley for failing in their job duties to report the incident to the police.

That being said, while JoePa may have done his legal duty, I feel that he failed in his moral duty. He is a man that has always been about Integrity, Honor, and doing the right thing even if it's not the popular thing. His life's work has been about teaching, guiding, and molding young men into outstanding, good men. For him to just report the incident to his higher ups and wash his hands of it and consider his duty done is deeply troubling to me.

I certainly don't know all the details, but I feel like a man of integrity and honor would have kept pursuing the matter if he saw Sandusky still roaming around free around campus all those years later. I know that people have said that abuse cases can be slow-moving and that the admiinstration may have told JoePa that they were taking care of it, but I feel a man of integrity and honor would not have just taken their word and would have been much more insistent and persistent in making sure that action was being taken and that Sandusky was being brought to justice. Yes, JoePa fulfilled his legal obligations as a coach. But I feel he failed in his moral obligations, especially as a leader and role model to young men and especially as he has built up such a stellar reputation and was always so on the up-and-up.

I read the grand jury indictment and it is infuriating. There were so many instances in which this monster could have been stopped, but so many people dropped the ball. Sandusky was questioned by police in regards to the shower incident in 1998 and the police basically told him not to shower with boys anymore. If he was Joe Nobody Creepy McCreeperson, would the police have just wagged their fingers and clucked their tongues "tsk tsk, no, no, no, no more showering with little boys"? (Side note: I feel there is NO REASON WHATSOEVER for an adult to be showering with a child. I remember back in middle school and high school mid-to-late-90's that our PE teachers weren't even allowed to go into the locker rooms when we were changing before and after gym class).

There was another incident where, if I'm remembering the indictment correctly, Sandusky was caught by a high school coach while he was laying on top of a boy in a high school weight room. The coach felt it was inappropriate enough to take it to the principal who banned Sandusky from the high school and from having access to kids at the high school. (Prior to that, he had free reign to use the gym facilities and to call Second Mile boys out of class to meet with him alone)

There have been comparisons between the Penn State scandal and the Catholic priest scandals, and I feel the comparison is apt. The high school knew something wrong and inappropriate had occurred and as far as I know they did not report it to the police. Instead, they just banned Sandusky from their school. Very much like how Catholic churches were transferring pedofile priests to other churches "now it's not my problem anymore, it's someone else's problem". Penn State did the same thing in regards to the 2002 incident. Their solution was to tell Sandusky he couldn't bring boys onto campus anymore and to call Second Mile. That was it!! And Sandusky was still going onto campus as recently as last week. Even if, as Schultz and Curley and Paterno and Spanier allege, they did not know that is was rape/sodomy, they did know that something inappropriate had happened. Even if they thought it was just showering or touching, they should have done more. They should have reported it to the police. If Sandusky had been a janitor that got caught in a shower with a young boy and not a prominent/respected/well-regarded coach/pillar of the community, would Penn State's reaction have just been "give us your keys janitor Sandusky and stay off our campus"?

I feel so terribly for the poor boy. He saw McQueary come into the locker room showers and probably thought someone had come to rescue him. Instead McQueary turns and walks away. I would like to think that, in that situation, I would have punched out the adult and gotten the kid out of that situation. But I don't know how I react. Maybe I too would have been so shocked/horrified/upset that I would be unable to act.

Finally, I know that Penn State can overcome and recover from this. But it is going to take time and it is going to require cleaning house. I know that there are students shouting for JoePa to stay, but I just don't see any way for that to happen. Everyone involved has been tarnished and sullied by this. We need a clean slate. And I believe that also includes Spanier stepping down. I am angry and saddened and disappointed that something this vile could happen at my beloved alma mater. The actions (or rather inactions) of a few men do not define Penn State. There are thousands upon thousands of good people at Penn State. I hope justice prevails and I hope the victims will begin to find closure and begin to heal.

I think after reading this article, I've finally figured out what I'm looking for.. An apology. I want someone, anyone, to take some kind of responsibility. I want an explanation from the school, Spanier, Paterno, McQuerey.. Whoever! I want someone who, even if they fulfilled their legal responsibility but not their moral one, to stand up and say, "I'm sorry.. I f***ed up."

http://mobile.lehighvalleylive.com/a...l=true#display

Has this been posted? Joe Paterno has announced his retirement.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-...abuse-tragedy/

Yes. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticCat (Post 2105354) And Paterno will retire at the end of the season.

LOL. Idk how I missed that.

ITA with you both (your whole post, SOPi). It just seems that on every level, the course of least resistance was taken. And all these articles I've read seem to act like Sandusky is some sort of cipher-that he can float about it all without anyone bothering to chin-check him on any level. It seems that if I suspected one of my former coworkers/friends of doing some morally/criminally reprehensible behavior, I would have least driven to their house, confronted them, demanded they turn themselves in (or I would) or something. No one ever seems like they actually even confronted him about it--just made minor decisions about him around him and let him keep "horsing around" with boys. There's a lot of culpability, and I don't think any of these are immune from blame: McQuerey, the temporary janitor, Joe Pa, Second Mile president, the missing DA, the VP and AD, the HS, etc., etc. and of course Sandusky himself. I do believe instead of doing the "right thing" everyone tried to do the "best thing" by taking away Sandusky's "tools"--access to kids, access to locations--that whatever damage was already done and that he wouldn't be able to do it again, and still be able to keep the whole situation under wraps.

But they should have known that nothing like this is going to stay in its box forever. That outside of coming forward from the beginning, and offering up Sandusky as the pedophile he is and burning him on the altar of the law, that it was going to make everyone associated complicit in his perversion when it finally broke free of the box.

And no, I don't know what I'd do in McQuerey's situation, but I know that I have spoken out to right a wrong at my own peril before, and I cannot imagine that I would simply walk away from a child (or an older person, or an animal) being brutalized. Maybe from two consenting adults, maybe. But not otherwise.

http://static.foxsports.com/content/...613341_0_0.JPG
Lauren Acquaviva, left, her husband Michael and 10-month-old son Matthias protest on the Penn State campus on Tuesday, objecting to the university administration's handling thus far of the sex-abuse scandal.
Matt Rourke

From Chaos has engulfed Happy Valley

Just heard on Headline News that the president of PSU is possibly going to announce his resignation as well. Will look for link and return...

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...aham_sp_6.html

Good.

PR at work.

:eek: OMG I saw that on "Disappeared." What if there is some link? Creepy!!!! They didn't seem to find any other reason why the man would just vanish.

He also came from a world where you don't throw someone you have worked with, respected, and trusted for decades under the bus because you heard something second hand, no matter how repulsive that is. One of the top execs at NBC said much the same about OJ Simpson, who was a longtime friend of his.

I agree with psusue...Paterno ISN'T a god...that means he makes really messed up decisions sometimes. This ain't the first, I'm sure it's not the only. Like AzTheta said, you have NO idea how you will react when it happens to you. Put yourself in his shoes and think about what you would do if you heard, second hand, that your best friend of decades was doing this. I doubt very much that all of you would be as gung ho as you say Paterno should have been.

That all being said...my prediction is that we'll hear in 9 months that he's been suffering from Alzheimer's for years (kind of like how they attempted to salvage Reagan's fuckups in his second term).

Also, and I don't know if the Penn Staters will back me, but (and it's hard to get this unless you hear about Penn State on the news every day) I place WAY more blame on Spanier as far as the ball dropping than I do on Paterno.

Yes, but people are calling him out in a bass-ackwards way...like they have also drank the Kool-Aid and can't believe that someone in his position could ever make a mistake to begin with, because you could only get into that position if you were perfect in every way.

That's how I'm reading it, YMMV.

But people have been reacting as though Paterno should never have made a mistake.. Ever. You don't know how many texts and Facebook messages I've received in the last few days with people saying things like, "I thought Paterno was all about honor and integrity," and, "Too bad your football coach doesn't practice what he preaches.". The fact of the matter is, he made a mistake that he may not even have recognized as a mistake until a few days ago, because that's when he actually learned of the severity of the incident.

For some, Paterno going to his superior instead of the police is the only thing that defines him. THAT is what's ridiculous.. Especially because no one seems to know all the facts (except, of course, Paterno).

^^^That is exactly what I was trying to say. Thanks.

They serve that Kool-Aid at the monthly Black people meetings too. :(

But seriously, when do they start investigating The Second Mile? According to a statement on their website, they claim that they were notified of the first investigation (where Sandusky was cleared of wrongdoing). Then, when he came to them in 2008 regarding the grand jury investigation, they kept him away from their activities involving kids. I'm sure they're playing a game of CYA as well, but I hope that as soon as the dust clears involving PSU that The Second Mile is thoroughly investigated.

THANK YOU.

I brought that up a few pages ago. Many people are so hung up on bringing down a (somewhat removed) giant that they're forgetting to focus on some of the people directly involved.

No problem :)

This is supposedly from the Grand Jury (not sure how to verify)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/dr/teg/tsg/r...ygrangjury.pdf

ESPN is reporting that Paterno has been fired.

I agree that there are a lot of areas, including Second Mile, that need to be investigated here.

ETA, has everyone seen this...from April?! http://www.timesonline.com/columnist...r-comment-area

Currently listening to the Board of Trustees press coference. Joe Paterno has been fired.

I'm in shock over all of this.

Paterno and President Out
 

Yep

Live stream on campus. http://www.wgntv.com/videogallery/65...ews-conference

Kind of a lame shot right now, but maybe they're change it. Kinda interesting.

I capitalize Black all the time! Where's my invitation? *pokes out bottom lip*

I've been seeing this everywhere but never actually looked at the story till just now. "The firing" was all over the TVs at the place I went tonight so I figured I'd click the link to see what the fuss was about.

My jaw dropped and spit fell out. It was very unattractive.

My issue with it (and many others' issue with it) isn't the one-time mistake. It is CONTINUALLY, over the course of over a decade, up until last freaking week, allowing this man to be associated with the program, to bring children on campus, to bring them into the football facilities, to allow him all access to the program. That's my biggest beef. To allow this sick f&*k to continue his association with the program and provide him a playground for his crimes.

Many other heads will roll. Probably far more people knew about this, and it will come out eventually. Wonder how long Tom Bradley will be around after further investigation is done? I wonder what he knew? I wonder why all of the other teams over the years that interviewed him for HC never hired him?

Exactly! THEY held the keys to the facilities. If they even thought there was abuse, the program should have been suspended and investigated. Taking that route would have produced a media frenzy...not unlike the one we see now...so it was easier to sweep it under the rug.

"You don't know what you'd do in tht situation..." Um...I'd not stop until I found out if there was truth to the allegations, and I wouldn't be able to live with myself until I did everything humanly possible. NO ONE messes with kids on my watch- Ive called CPS on people and I wouldn't hesitate to do it again!

This makes my head hurt just a little.

“At this moment the Board of Trustees should not spend a single minute discussing my status,” Paterno said in his statement.

When I first heard that, I kind of laughed. Who does he think he is? Arrogant to the end, it seems.

Not sure if anyone else is familiar, but Tucker Max is all over this on the Tweeter. He's like "If Tucker Max is telling you you're morally questionable, you're a terrible excuse for a human being."

From the New York Times:

I don't understand the riots in support of him, or blaming the media and the board. At all.

That kid is saying the board tarnished a legend!?!? You have got to be kidding me.

Oh, my. :eek:

Just read his Twitter feed. Never thought I'd see the day that Tucker Max and I came down on the same side of an issue.

Sandusky had keys to the facility, as he had an office and access per his retirement/emeritus status. Schultz had an obligation to block his access when he found out about the abuse. He didn't, and that's why he has been charged.

JoePa is an icon around those parts, but that wasn't his job. That's why he was not charged.

Just a point of clarification - Faculty emeritus status is an honorary title and a privilege. It is given in recognition for years of service, and while it may come with continued access or office space, it is not a requirement. Often emeritus faculty have ongoing research after they have officially retired, or they might come back to teach a specialty class in their area. They could have at any time said "Oops, we need the office space for someone else." and taken the keys back.

I understand that.

"They" was Schultz and his office, though, not Paterno.

So one the one hand, the graduate assistant that we now know to be Mike McQueary - didn't do or say enough because he was afraid that it might be damaging to his career or that they would blackball him, but JoePa doesn't have control over the office space in the athletics facilities? He couldn't have said "Hey I don't want this guy hanging around?" Or "Hey, we need the space to bring some one in to help tutor the guys on their physics homework"?

New rumor being reported by Mark Madden:

Report: Jerry Sandusky Pimped Out Kids to Rich Donors