:confused:

I really don't see a connection between the analogies in each statement.

True story: When I was an undergrad a 'study-buddy' of mine was a white girl. One night she was studying with me and our mutual guy friend, who is Black.

As we were leaving the architecture building, she turned to us and said "Y'all are like 'white-Black' people." She really thought she was giving us a compliment. We politely told her that she was not.


I do think, however, whites have a tendency to assume that the world is not right until everyone assimilates to their way of thinking and doing things.

Why can't y'all just accept there are differences in the world, and not everyone wants to be just like you.

Someone mentioned up-thread that the NPHC has been operating just fine the way it has been for just over 100 years, and we are still going strong.

Each org / council has established what ever criteria they felt best for their membership. One is not better than the other - they are just different.

LOL. I responded based on what I considered the intended implications of the statements.

See, I had a long post in response to 33girl's post but didn't post it because I knew it would take this thread elsewhere. I love your post but know that it takes this thread elsewhere. And you know how GC acts when it is taken...elsewhere. *dundundun...dunnnnnnnnnn....*

I *think* the implications are that being Black and (separate and a part from) being gay are the "same" from a white heterosexual point of view since white heterosexuals consider both Blacks and gays to be minorities. An implication / analogy / similarity that I most definitely do not agree with.

This is why white gays feel they can piggy-back off the Civil Rights Movement to use it as a foundation to support gay rights. Like being Black and gay are the same thing (wait, I already said that).

It makes them aware of their feelings towards anyone who is not like them, and it forces them to come to terms with that.

Getting back to the OP, I think NPC could offer some up-and-comers some real support in growth and legitimacy, but I don't see any NPHC sororities needing that support. Or legitimacy.

I do think it would be helpful in a "can't we all just get along" kind of way if the NPHC chapters and NPC chapters would work more closely together at the campus level. When I was in school the NPHC chapters were quite strong, I think, but never knew a single woman who was a member of one. And yes, I've had black friends my whole life, so it wasn't that. It would be nice to have ALL the sororities on campus participating in flag football or attending each others philanthropies or whatever. Co-counsel mixers or exchanges?

And SigmaDiva, your story cracked me up! I was thinking of some similar statements I've heard in my life (about friends/neighbors) and I'm always dumb-struck about how to respond to it.

FWIW, I was operating under the philanthropy/social and racial emphasis division made earlier in the thread by sigmadiva.

I think some misunderstandings happen specifically because some Greek Life admins. and NPC members try to fit the NPHC orgs into the NPC box - my analogy (and yes, I know argument by analogy is always problematic) was attempting to speak to that WITHOUT implying one was better than the other. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

Back to the OP question - with the many non-NPC options available today would a GLO WANT to join the NPC? It would be an awfully hard row to hoe.

I know this his been brought up on GC several times before. Flag Football and Date Parties are not necessarily on non-IFC/NPC members' radars. The entertainment/social events are typically the ones that non-IFC/NPC members get invited to, though.

FYI - overall equality IS a civil rights issue. I don't think any members of the GLBT community are piggy-backing on the BLACK Civil Rights Movement.

See: Stonewall Riots (which occurred around the same time as the Black Civil Rights Movement, hence some of the "piggy-back" perceptions).

/tangent

I remember once the Tri Delta chapter and the DST chapter at TAMU co-sponsored some type of philanthropy event and called it 'It's a Delta Thang', or something like that. Effort has to be made to 'cross the aisle' from both sides. Now where have we heard that before. ;)

As long as it is clear and understood that one is not the same as the other. And that one can not and should not be used to justify the other, as the quote 33girl provided implied. That is what I was responding to.

In my book, it is a sin to be gay. It is not a sin to be Black, although some would try to make you think it is.

I am personally not going to support laws that I think blatantly condone a sinful act.

Justifying it with your religion doesn't make you any less of a bigot.

And attacking my religion does not make you any better. ;)

Just clarifying for you.

And I won't address the rest of the post in order to keep this thread SOMEWHAT on topic.

Good call!

Nope, sorry, that's not how intolerance works. You hold bigoted beliefs about gays. I, on the other hand, have said nothing negative about your religion (in fact, I don't even know which religion it is), except that you shouldn't use it to justify your bigoted beliefs.

If you consider the fact that I try to live my life as close to the Bible as I possibly can, then I guess in your book I am a bigot.

I can live with that. I've been called worse.

So we DO eventually fall into bigotry in this thread--but not a race war. Imagine that!

NPC/NPHC collaborations are rare, and I think a lot of it has to do with the self-segregating/highly secretive nature of some NPHC groups on some college campuses. Also, I've personally experienced a level of condescension from NPHC members who believe that "all [we] do is drink," or that our commitment isn't lifetime. That's not exactly uncommon.

But, that's totally fine with me.

I was going to say something funny about Sen based on this above...

Annnnnnnd now, it's not so funny.

:(

It's just another fun day on GC!!!

And the reverse is true when it comes to perceived stereotypes about the NPHC - that we are all about line names, line numbers, our calls and stepping.

And, from what I've learned on GC, I don't see where the NPHC is any more selective than the NPC.

We both factor GPA as an important criteria, we both look for potential members who will represent our orgs well, we both have to deal with heli-moms and dads. A lot of the issue that the NPC has to deal with in membership selection are the same for the NPHC.

I think one difference is in the time frame that membership selection is done. For the NPC, it is all done over a 3 - 5 or 7 day period. For the NPHC, we typically offer interest meetings and seminars where people can participate over a semester before membership selection, or MIP, is started.

Were you trying to teach me about the differences between NPC and NPHC groups? :confused::confused::confused:

Well golly, thanks for saving our souls! THANK GOD we have people out there who are going to do their best to keep the rest of us from sinning, by force if they have to!

No. I was just trying to show that while you expressed concern over how the NPC is wrongly perceived, the same is true for the NPHC.

I'm saying that we both have PR issues.

You're welcome!

And besides, I am only one person with one vote, but I will do my best. ;)

My chapter did a few flag footballs and co-counsel mixers. It was fun but had no longterm gain unless the members were already friends or close acquaintances. These events were NPC events that NPHC orgs were expected to assimilate into. For those who hadn't already been familiar with NPHC orgs, it would often end up with ridiculous questions being asked of us or things like seeing NPCers throwing up the "pyramid" and OOO-OOOPing at nonGreek social gatherings; or seeing NIC men doing things like throwing up the "Omega hook." We often invited NPC and NIC to our events but the members (who weren't already our personal friends) would openly say things like "I don't know what I'm looking at right now"/"what are they doing?"/"this makes no sense to me." In other words, it made them feel uncomfortable to be the minority and to not always know everything that was going on. Welcome to "our" world.

We did wonderful social and philanthropic events with NIC orgs (NPC orgs were more apprehensive and that could be an intersection of gender, race, and NPHC-NPC effects). It worked well because all organizations were able to bring in their own experiences and expertise versus always being expected to assimilate. It also worked well because some of these NIC (and NPC) students were our close friends and we would talk about Greekdom in private. We finally decided to display our Greek unity across councils and conferences in public. :)

The coolest thing was when the Black NPCers and NICers would hang with us on a personal level and some were actually NPHC legacies. It was awesome because no one was judging or saying "why'd you join THIS org?!" They often felt the need to overcompensate and explain themselves until we told them that's unnecessary. Just be a cool person and never forget "who" you are. :)

Differences in chapter sizes and chapter event calendars often means that NPHC chapters will not want to participate in Flag Football and Date Parties. Some NPHC chapters during the '90s disliked "Badge Day" because of different protocol regarding wearing badges. Some of us will wear our symbols but not our actual badge around campus. Refusal to wear the actual badge was often interpreted as "NPHC not wanting to hang with the cool kids again!"



It is a civil rights issue and I think well-informed people know that the (Black) Civil Rights Movement of the 1960s wasn't/isn't the only civil rights issue and civil rights movement in America. However, there are many members of the GLBT community who are piggy-backing on the Black Civil Rights Movement but with no ill intent. Some people (not just members of the GLBT community) feel it is a necessary and appropriate piggy-back for civil rights struggles that are either the exact same or close enough. Many feel as though the gay civil rights movement began around the same time as the Black civil rights movement because it all boils down to struggles of the oppressed and both individual-level prejudice and institutional-level discrimination.** If you have not encountered this in person, there is research on this; and references and discussions that can be found via Google.

** That ignores how there are plenty members of the GLBT community who are racist and there are plenty members of the Black community who are heterosexist.

I agree.

I fixed that for you. Those who use the book to support racism, slavery, Jim Crow, and lynchings of Blacks claim to use a literal interpretation of the book in which God is both speaking personally (even answering prayers telling them that Blacks are nothingness and hate groups are necessary) and speaking to all believers. If that's a load of BS, as far as you're concerned, surely you can fathom how even scriptures perceived as pertaining to sexual orientation could have been human perceptions written in religious text.

I assume that you are a Christian (please correct me if I'm wrong), as am I. My views of Christianity have changed very much over the past 10 years. My perspective doesn't have to apply to all Christians, though. Neither does yours. So, I assume that you aren't claiming that "your book" and your approach to Christianity are pure and correct whereas Christians who don't share your views don't understand the Book and have been hoodwinkedandbamboozled by the devil.

Does that mean you will not support it or will you remain neutral because "Jeeeeesus will work it out...."

Actually, that's exactly how intolerance and bigotry work.

sigmadiva said something you perceived as bigoted. For the record, while I do not agree with her statement or share her belief, I'm not sure it really meets the definition of bigoted either, which is being intolerant of a differing belief, creed or opinion. Not thinking something is good or right or not supporting something is not necessarily the same as being intolerant of those who think differently.

But even if it was a bigoted statement, you responded with what can be perceived as an equally bigoted response: That your idea of what is right should trump someone else's religion, even when you don't know what that religion is. You even go so far as to tell her how she should and shouldn't approach her religion by telling her that she shouldn't use it to justify her bigotry. From my perspective, that doesn't put you in a very good position to call others out for intolerance or bigotry.

It is not intolerant to disagree with someone. It is not intolerant to argue vehemently against the beliefs of another. But it is intolerant to dismiss the beliefs of another on the grounds that they don't mesh with your own.

It just takes being open to learning about things that aren't always in your face. :) If all people go based on are the things that stupid college kids (across councils and conferences) tend to do and say, sure people will have certain perceptions. Those perceptions aren't completely wrong, because they do apply to some and even many, they just aren't 100% accurate and generalizable.

I learned a lot about non-NPHC lifetime commitments through GreekChat but also through things like meeting older NPCers and NICers at alumnae/alumni/graduate chapter events; seeing NPCers and NICers wearing letters and symbols 40+years after graduation; knowing that NPCers and NICers use membership for networking opportunities; etc.

If not for those things, I would only have the typical "this is just for college" cliche` to go based on. :)

Yeah, we (NPHC) participated in NPC-NIC Greek Week once, but it just did not click.


I know the Bible has been abused to justify a lot of things. All I'm saying is that when I read the NIV version, I've yet to come across a verse saying it is a sin to be Black, whereas there are references in both the Old and New Testaments that it is a sin to be gay.

Yes, I do consider myself to be a Christian, and yes, over the years my views have changed too. I'm not saying that my approach should apply to everyone else, but I think people are taking it that way. Probably because I am the only one who has expressed my view on this subject in this thread.


I'm saying that I personally draw the line at gay marriage. If gay couples want to adopt kids (which I have come to accept over the years), leave their benefits to their SO, and not be descriminated against because they are gay, I get that.


HAHAHAHAHA!!!! I know people who say this!!

Exactly, bigotry exists on both sides of the aisle.

Yes, there is still an aisle and there are still sides.

No, for me it was because that's how you said it. You attempted to state definitively that "your book" says that homosexuality is a sin. I'm pretty sure you and I own the same Book. So, you aren't just making a statement about your own viewpoint, you are saying that it is there for all knowing eyes to see and accept.

As a fellow Christian, and someone who loves different opinions because they make the world interesting, I would never say believing that homosexuality is a sin is automatically bigoted unless that means that people can't disapprove of anything without automatically being a bigot. All I'm saying is that you can use your religion and the book to support your perceptions without implying that you are upholding a universal Christian TRUTH that has not been the least bit influenced by human interpretations and societal norms and values. Or, you can keep implying that (as most of my family and friends do) but be open to others' responses to your expressed viewpoints. The world is your oyster.

I respect your viewpoint and there are members of the GLBT community who agree with you for a number of reasons including religion. That's why there isn't just ONE approach to this topic. :)

The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is not bigotry. People can think and feel whatever the hell they like. They can even express those opinions as long as they are as tolerant of people's responses to their viewpoints. The issue with institutional and structural discrimination is ensuring that groups are not excluded on the basis of such viewpoints. Think whatever you want and base it on whatever you want, but "get out of the way" so that others can live their lives how they choose as long as it is in accordance to the laws of the land.

This is what makes me LOL about those who are bigoted against gays and feel that gay marriage will somehow erode the institution of marriage altogether. I don't know how much more MY life or MY personal relationships would change if gays were allowed to get married--I'd probably have a lot more weddings to attend, but that's about it.

But, now that I think about it, more weddings would break me! NO GAY MARRIAGE BECAUSE I AM TIRED OF BUYING PRESENTS FROM CRATE AND BARREL.

LOL.

Well, the lives of others do impact ours either immediately or over time. Across societies, norms, values, and laws have changed over time and these societies have changed with them (as either the direct cause of the change or a correlate of the change). Whether the change is perceived as positive or negative, there is change.

When I say "get out of the way," I'm not implying that people have no vested interest in what happens in a larger sense and that what happens has no impact on anyone beyond the actual actors.

I made a statement based on what I've read in the Bible. Maybe we read different versions of the Bible, because they are out there.

And we all understand TRUTH differently. I'm expressing the TRUTH as I understand it. You may have a different spin on it. That is okay.


I agree.

LOL. You're going with that, eh?

About time you acknowledged the bolded. And don't label my interpretation and understanding of Scripture as a "spin." Unless you consider yours a "spin" which is counter to everything you've stated (until you admitted it is your understanding of your readings).

And of course it is okay. I certainly didn't think I was headed to hell nor did I think you were headed to hell based on your different interpretation.

Now you seem to be getting defensive. So I will stop.

You could have stopped typing about this without attempting to put the onus on me. You know damn better than that.

And I think you would know better too.

I also know that you like to try to crush people with yourve
verbose responses. It gets exhaustive to keep up with you.

You make me tired.

Translation: sigmadiva got defensive or misinterpreted my post and tried to put it off on me.

LOL. Don't try that mess you tried with Drolefille in that other thread.

It's hilarious because I was one of the few people in this thread who was not offended by anything sigmadiva typed and was receptive to her posts. Oh well.

I didn't think that part was dead on either, but just including the first part seemed a little abrupt. :)

People don't know the difference between "equality" and "sameness."

ETA: oh jeepers, sorry I took this thread a careening everywhere, this week has been quite tiring and I forgot where I was.

ITA, plus Williams-Sonoma.

Civil Unions can be had in Illinois beginning July 1. My family of divorce lawyers can't wait!

Look what you've done!!!! It's all your fault!!!! :D

I actually like this thread. :)

Stop being so defense DrPhil, it is resulting in my reliance on passive aggressiveness.

I was going to reply to the rest of this thread but it's a hot mess and all you non-sigmadiva people said what I would have said anyway.

So anyone else who thinks that gay people are sinful because of who they love and like to have sex with can fuck off!